How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 4)
Discussion
cookie118 said:
Ridgemont said:
Unfortunately the sneering, dismissive tone of that article is all too often displayed by brexiteers towards anyone or any concerns about brexit.Quite a lot of assumptions being made there.
don'tbesilly said:
Jimboka said:
mike9009 said:
Ridgemont said:
Hilarious side effect of the Brexit vote 
‘“We paid all the taxes which propped them up. Now they’ve gone and f****d us. So, f**k them. We’ll be fine, but they’re screwed.”
Problem with Remain, and in particular this #FBPE hollyhocks is that it's just become one giant virtue signalling groupthink fest in favour of the EU they think it is or wish it was instead of the EU it actually is. No attempts to understand or fix the why.
FiF said:
One could say that it was "abridged too far."
Problem with Remain, and in particular this #FBPE hollyhocks is that it's just become one giant virtue signalling groupthink fest in favour of the EU they think it is or wish it was instead of the EU it actually is. No attempts to understand or fix the why.
You can see this throughout this, and other Brexit related, threads. There is a complete paucity of analysis and understanding from Remainers about a) where the EU is going and the affect that might have on the UK; and b) what are the underlying reasons the UK voted to leave.Problem with Remain, and in particular this #FBPE hollyhocks is that it's just become one giant virtue signalling groupthink fest in favour of the EU they think it is or wish it was instead of the EU it actually is. No attempts to understand or fix the why.
Instead Remainers default to over simplified accusations of racism and use of petty, juvenile name calling of those who voted leave e.g. gammon! Sad, yet they still believe they are the intelligent ones!
Garvin said:
You can see this throughout this, and other Brexit related, threads. There is a complete paucity of analysis and understanding from Remainers about a) where the EU is going and the affect that might have on the UK; and b) what are the underlying reasons the UK voted to leave.
Instead Remainers default to over simplified accusations of racism and use of petty, juvenile name calling of those who voted leave e.g. gammon! Sad, yet they still believe they are the intelligent ones!
Are you intimating that leavers fully understand the EU?Instead Remainers default to over simplified accusations of racism and use of petty, juvenile name calling of those who voted leave e.g. gammon! Sad, yet they still believe they are the intelligent ones!
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
If I may.....its long term aims and ambitions?......Yes.
But remainers don't?PurpleMoonlight said:
Are you intimating that leavers fully understand the EU?
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
If I may.....its long term aims and ambitions?......Yes.
But remainers don't?alfie2244 said:
Well unless they want a full on USoEU and all that will entail, army etc then perhaps not..... I find it hard to believe 48% of the UK voting population would vote for that (Those that bothered to vote of course).
A strange attitude.You assume that someone who may want a different future to you cannot understand what the future may hold.
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
Well unless they want a full on USoEU and all that will entail, army etc then perhaps not..... I find it hard to believe 48% of the UK voting population would vote for that (Those that bothered to vote of course).
A strange attitude.You assume that someone who may want a different future to you cannot understand what the future may hold.
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
Well unless they want a full on USoEU and all that will entail, army etc then perhaps not..... I find it hard to believe 48% of the UK voting population would vote for that (Those that bothered to vote of course).
A strange attitude.You assume that someone who may want a different future to you cannot understand what the future may hold.
So you are saying Remainers actually would want the UK's future controlled by non UK politicians that will have 27 other countries interest to take into account (Bit like a swing designed by a committee) and that this may not necessarily be in accord with the UK's best interests / wishes, needs etc, but it is what they would want?
Sorry but no I don't understand that and never will.
skyrover said:
cookie118 said:
Ridgemont said:
Unfortunately the sneering, dismissive tone of that article is all too often displayed by brexiteers towards anyone or any concerns about brexit.Quite a lot of assumptions being made there.
The first few paragraphs detailed the authors anecdotal experiences at an embassy and various pubs & bars around Westminster. Which assumptions?I thought it was an amusing, self deprecating, piece. The behaviours identified by the pair of psychologists have been regularly displayed, by several remain leaning contributors, on the various PH Brexit threads during the past two years.
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
Well unless they want a full on USoEU and all that will entail, army etc then perhaps not..... I find it hard to believe 48% of the UK voting population would vote for that (Those that bothered to vote of course).
A strange attitude.You assume that someone who may want a different future to you cannot understand what the future may hold.
A minority don't get to determine the future of the majority.
alfie2244 said:
What a strange attitude.
So you are saying Remainers actually would want the UK's future controlled by non UK politicians that will have 27 other countries interest to take into account (Bit like a swing designed by a committee) and that this may not necessarily be in accord with the UK's best interests / wishes, needs etc, but it is what they would want?
Sorry but no I don't understand that and never will.
I'm saying that you are wrong to assume that others cannot possibly understand it because it is something that you don't want and cannot understand why they would want it. So you are saying Remainers actually would want the UK's future controlled by non UK politicians that will have 27 other countries interest to take into account (Bit like a swing designed by a committee) and that this may not necessarily be in accord with the UK's best interests / wishes, needs etc, but it is what they would want?
Sorry but no I don't understand that and never will.
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
What a strange attitude.
So you are saying Remainers actually would want the UK's future controlled by non UK politicians that will have 27 other countries interest to take into account (Bit like a swing designed by a committee) and that this may not necessarily be in accord with the UK's best interests / wishes, needs etc, but it is what they would want?
Sorry but no I don't understand that and never will.
I'm saying that you are wrong to assume that others cannot possibly understand it because it is something that you don't want and cannot understand why they would want it. So you are saying Remainers actually would want the UK's future controlled by non UK politicians that will have 27 other countries interest to take into account (Bit like a swing designed by a committee) and that this may not necessarily be in accord with the UK's best interests / wishes, needs etc, but it is what they would want?
Sorry but no I don't understand that and never will.
However, handing over control of the UK to the EU, which is in effect the long-term aim, makes no sense to me whatsoever and I will never understand it all the time I have a hole in my backside.
Ridgemont said:
One of the comments below that article is rather interesting;"It is strange to imagine that people who voted for BREXIT made a mistake because of stupidity.
The question in the referendum was extremely simple “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”
So each person had to consider the advantages and disadvantages of UK membership of the EU for them personally, their family and friends and for the country as a whole. It was also entirely proper for each voter to consider the relative importance of themselves and their family versus the interests of other people who they do not know.
Take the individual considerations:
Does my income directly depend on EU membership? The answer in the UK must be no or not significantly for about 90% of the population.
Will the UK still be able to import food, (raw materials, components and finished products) from the EU? The answer is almost certainly yes and in any case all these things are readily available outside the EU.
What are the advantages of EU membership? Again for over 90% population the main advantage is the ability to take holidays in the EU. They have no intention to live, work or study in the EU27. Most must assume that their right or at least their ability to take holidays in the EU will continue, and even if they do not, there are plenty of places to visit like Turkey, the USA and 100’s of other interesting countries where they would continue to be welcome.
Has the EU made me richer? Some may consider the EU has heaped regulation on top of regulation for decades resulting in higher taxes and lower wages and profits. Most would probably think “I can’t think of anything the EU did to make me, my family or the UK richer.”
What else does the EU do for me? They make it hard for my employer to sack me – but again 90% of the population probably think “My employer has no reason to sack me – they’ve invested a lot of money training me so that protection is not a real advantage to me.”
I believe that is a fair assessment of the benefits for the ordinary person in the UK.
Then the same people must consider the disadvantages of EU membership for themselves, their family and the wider community.
In much of the country traffic congestion has become markedly worse in recent years. Clearly, people think this must be related to the population pressure caused by the growth in population and equally clearly the UK Government lacks the money or the willingness or the ability to invest in the infrastructure to solve this issue. This has a big impact on the quality of life and the ability to travel to work and earn money.
Since 1997, it has become extremely hard to get a doctors appointment in the UK. Clearly, the growth in population has exceeded the growth in the supply of doctors. This is a big waste of time.
Housing in the UK has become hugely expensive. The lack of land, the restrictive planning laws have been a long term problem but the increase in population appear to have changed the problem into a crisis that affects every family with children and every family who need to buy a new home.
Democracy. Does my vote count or do all our votes count? If we become very dissatisfied with life in Britain can we vote to change this? Unfortunately, it appears that many laws are made by the EU or by courts controlled or influenced by the EU and UK politicians and civil servants are full of the excuse “That’s an excellent idea, but it’s not legal under EU law.” So votes in the UK became seriously devalued and the advantage of being able to vote for a MEP is insultingly insufficient compensation.
Defence. Would the EU come to the defence of the UK if we were attacked? Argentina invaded British territory and the EU collectively and
individually did not lift a finger to help.
How is free access to the so called EU single market working out for me and for the country. For over 95% population they have no personal contact with other EU markets single, multiple or insular except some as tourists perhaps 2 weeks a year or two and for the country? Britain, the cradle of the industrial revolution, has the biggest trade deficit in it’s history. So not well at all.
What is the future direction of the EU? Is it likely to become more responsive to the unique situation of the UK? Mr Cameron’s attempted renegotiation of the UK relationship with the EU resulted in a public humiliation for him and the country. This proved beyond doubt to anybody who paid attention that the powers within the EU had not the slightest understanding of the conditions in the UK nor the slightest willingness to consider any proposal to make EU law more acceptable to UK requirements. To a rational thinker, Cameron’s treatment showed that the EU held the UK in contempt, the British people and their elected leader in contempt and could not care one way or the other what we thought or indeed how we voted.
The direct cost of the EU to British taxpayers. Rational people must ask, “What do I get for this money?” The answer for nearly 98% of the population is almost nothing. Yes, some groups like large farmers, academics, companies funded by EU agencies and MEPs may have made out like bandits, but they amount to perhaps 2% of the population.
Unless I have overlooked some important factor, the decision for UK voters to vote “leave” seems entirely rational indeed an example of collective intelligence comming to the correct conclusion.
The surprising thing was that the vote was close, though amongst older people who could remember what life was like before the UK joined the EEC, and had the life experience to think for themselves rather than accept propaganda, the vote was at least 60% for leave."
alfie2244 said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
What a strange attitude.
So you are saying Remainers actually would want the UK's future controlled by non UK politicians that will have 27 other countries interest to take into account (Bit like a swing designed by a committee) and that this may not necessarily be in accord with the UK's best interests / wishes, needs etc, but it is what they would want?
Sorry but no I don't understand that and never will.
I'm saying that you are wrong to assume that others cannot possibly understand it because it is something that you don't want and cannot understand why they would want it. So you are saying Remainers actually would want the UK's future controlled by non UK politicians that will have 27 other countries interest to take into account (Bit like a swing designed by a committee) and that this may not necessarily be in accord with the UK's best interests / wishes, needs etc, but it is what they would want?
Sorry but no I don't understand that and never will.
However, handing over control of the UK to the EU, which is in effect the long-term aim, makes no sense to me whatsoever and I will never understand it all the time I have a hole in my backside.
Personally the only Remain view that I can respect is that of the relatively small % who do want to go the whole hog, full political, fiscal, legal union. Let's face it, that is the only way the EU is going to work. Problem is its members are now too disparate, and to confine membership to nations who economically could work together, and then have a very very cautious approach to new joiners would probably mean a much smaller EU with little point to it. Even less than there is now.
alfie2244 said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Are you intimating that leavers fully understand the EU?
If I may.....its long term aims and ambitions?......Yes.The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
Mrr T said:
The first thing you need to understand team leave seem to believe the EU is a living thing which has its own views and plans. I always ask for pictures of this EU but no one has ever found one.
The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
Daft and blind whatever "side" you are on.The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
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