How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)
Discussion
Ghibli said:
soupdragon1 said:
Leaving with no deal is worse for both UK and the EU, everyone wants to avoid this, so yes, the EU would be punishing it's own people.
If you were in T Mays position, what would your solution be?
We are the only ones leaving the EU. If it hurts the EU people it does not make it the EUs fault.If you were in T Mays position, what would your solution be?
If we accepted the backstop until a solution is found it would solve the problem of the negotiations. Obviously the Goverment don't think that there is a solution and can't see one materialising.
A no deal Brexit is the worst option which some Brexit supporters appear to want.
It's of little surprise that despite the number of posts spelling this out in the past it still passes you by
WCZ said:
Sway said:
That's not true - the implications of each Treaty were well understood by those signing them.
It's simply disgraceful that none of those signatories weren't forced to say "this is it, the point of no return, what say you?" to the electorate.
yeah but no one knew for sure at the time how successful it'd be and how reliant dependent member states would become on it (if turns out to be reality for us) It's simply disgraceful that none of those signatories weren't forced to say "this is it, the point of no return, what say you?" to the electorate.
And yet....
This situation would never have come about if every treaty change needed a referendum. Preferably in all member states. The EU would have been less able to ignore public opinion.
Unfortunately politicians like to feather their own nests, and the more layers of them there are, the bigger the nests.
Sway said:
That's not true is it?
You know this, as we've been round this loop before, until you spout "but how long, how much?" - which competely refutes using your own words the post I've just quoted.
We had a discussion about a technology solution before. How is it going? any news on the start of the feasibility study? appointment of contractors to build it? etc etc. So no still just a sheet of A4.You know this, as we've been round this loop before, until you spout "but how long, how much?" - which competely refutes using your own words the post I've just quoted.
I also suggested the system would need to be developed in cooperation with the EU. However, you seemed to be under the impression that the system could just be built for NI and would facilitate NI imports and export. I asked you how the system would deal with NI exports without EU cooperation but you never replied. Will you now?
don'tbesilly said:
As an alternative to May's 'Brexit means BINO' and May's 'No deal is better than my my (May's) deal', yes that is by far the best route, as May's plan is not leaving the EU, barring a mention in Wiki that the UK is no longer a member of the EU.
It's of little surprise that despite the number of posts spelling this out in the past it still passes you by
How about the UK finding a solution to Irish problem, that would solve it.It's of little surprise that despite the number of posts spelling this out in the past it still passes you by
I have yet to see one post on PH that solves the problem. Some thing you can't understand, then again you seem to think PH is the real negotiations.
don'tbesilly said:
As has the mendacious snake Mandelson.
78k a year for the transitional period (3 yrs) after leaving his job as Trade Commisioner in 2008, tax paid at EU 'preferential' rate.
£30-35K per year when he gets to 65, conditional on being loyal to the EU, and not uttering a published word of criticism.
You couldn't get a more discredited MP, yet the Remainers worship the ground he walks on when he bleats about a 2nd Referendum.
The great Nigel has also done very well despite rarely turning up for work. 78k a year for the transitional period (3 yrs) after leaving his job as Trade Commisioner in 2008, tax paid at EU 'preferential' rate.
£30-35K per year when he gets to 65, conditional on being loyal to the EU, and not uttering a published word of criticism.
You couldn't get a more discredited MP, yet the Remainers worship the ground he walks on when he bleats about a 2nd Referendum.
Mrr T said:
Sway said:
That's not true is it?
You know this, as we've been round this loop before, until you spout "but how long, how much?" - which competely refutes using your own words the post I've just quoted.
We had a discussion about a technology solution before. How is it going? any news on the start of the feasibility study? appointment of contractors to build it? etc etc. So no still just a sheet of A4.You know this, as we've been round this loop before, until you spout "but how long, how much?" - which competely refutes using your own words the post I've just quoted.
I also suggested the system would need to be developed in cooperation with the EU. However, you seemed to be under the impression that the system could just be built for NI and would facilitate NI imports and export. I asked you how the system would deal with NI exports without EU cooperation but you never replied. Will you now?
It doesn't need to be built in conjunction with the EU.
What the EU does for it's borders is up to them. If they want to collaborate, great. If not, then they'll have to come up with some other solution for thier side, based upon their stated aim of maintaining the (false) premise of the GFA. There are two borders on the line on the map. One border is ours, the other is the other nation's. The two are separate, if often intertwined for efficiency.
Seeing as the EU is already familiar with AEO/Trusted Trader schemes, then if we implement a wider reaching approach for our handling of imports, and our business' preparation for export - then the information is available for handling under those approaches to the importing nation. The EU is comfortable such an approach is viable - after all, they're now suggesting it. Barnier's words were "simply scanning a barcode on a truck". Where the Irish would like to do that is up to them.
You really are exceptionally tiresome. First repeating the rebutted concept that there is no solution. Then twisting and turning based on tiny amounts of learning from the source you distrusted prior to the ref - after all, prior to the ref you were clear you'd have voted leave if a credible plan for leaving was proposed. Now, you're suckling at the teat of the North's for all your worth, hoping to find the reason that justifies your original premise that it's all far too difficult...
Ghibli said:
don'tbesilly said:
As an alternative to May's 'Brexit means BINO' and May's 'No deal is better than my my (May's) deal', yes that is by far the best route, as May's plan is not leaving the EU, barring a mention in Wiki that the UK is no longer a member of the EU.
It's of little surprise that despite the number of posts spelling this out in the past it still passes you by
How about the UK finding a solution to Irish problem, that would solve it.It's of little surprise that despite the number of posts spelling this out in the past it still passes you by
I have yet to see one post on PH that solves the problem. Some thing you can't understand, then again you seem to think PH is the real negotiations.
Sensible people, which clearly excludes you, know that the majority of negotiations take place in Brussels, and people comment and form opinions on how the negotiations are going based on the reports of such from a wide range of media sources.
You just troll.
don'tbesilly said:
You clearly think that, which explains your posts.
Sensible people, which clearly excludes you, know that the majority of negotiations take place in Brussels, and people comment and form opinions on how the negotiations are going based on the reports of such from a wide range of media sources.
You just troll.
What is it that has been spelt out to me. It's certainly not a solution to ithe Irish border problem.Sensible people, which clearly excludes you, know that the majority of negotiations take place in Brussels, and people comment and form opinions on how the negotiations are going based on the reports of such from a wide range of media sources.
You just troll.
You just troll.
Ghibli said:
How about the UK finding a solution to Irish problem, that would solve it.
I have yet to see one post on PH that solves the problem. Some thing you can't understand, then again you seem to think PH is the real negotiations.
I posted a solution, at 14.30 and 15.06 today. I think that's T Mays best approach and reading between the lines, she is almost certainly considering that. It's a tough nut to crack, but it will appease everyone except the DUP.I have yet to see one post on PH that solves the problem. Some thing you can't understand, then again you seem to think PH is the real negotiations.
Sway said:
So the post I quoted isn't true - you very clearly stated there is no solution other than the one proposed by the EU. Now, as usual, you're onto "OMG, it's going to be soo difficult".
It doesn't need to be built in conjunction with the EU.
What the EU does for it's borders is up to them. If they want to collaborate, great. If not, then they'll have to come up with some other solution for thier side, based upon their stated aim of maintaining the (false) premise of the GFA. There are two borders on the line on the map. One border is ours, the other is the other nation's. The two are separate, if often intertwined for efficiency.
Seeing as the EU is already familiar with AEO/Trusted Trader schemes, then if we implement a wider reaching approach for our handling of imports, and our business' preparation for export - then the information is available for handling under those approaches to the importing nation. The EU is comfortable such an approach is viable - after all, they're now suggesting it. Barnier's words were "simply scanning a barcode on a truck". Where the Irish would like to do that is up to them.
You really are exceptionally tiresome. First repeating the rebutted concept that there is no solution. Then twisting and turning based on tiny amounts of learning from the source you distrusted prior to the ref - after all, prior to the ref you were clear you'd have voted leave if a credible plan for leaving was proposed. Now, you're suckling at the teat of the North's for all your worth, hoping to find the reason that justifies your original premise that it's all far too difficult...
I am not being inconsistent. I have always said a technology border may be possible. Presenting the EU with a sheet of A4 which suggests such a border but has no detail on how it will work, no detail on how long it will take to build it, is not a sensible way to convince them to agree to the option.It doesn't need to be built in conjunction with the EU.
What the EU does for it's borders is up to them. If they want to collaborate, great. If not, then they'll have to come up with some other solution for thier side, based upon their stated aim of maintaining the (false) premise of the GFA. There are two borders on the line on the map. One border is ours, the other is the other nation's. The two are separate, if often intertwined for efficiency.
Seeing as the EU is already familiar with AEO/Trusted Trader schemes, then if we implement a wider reaching approach for our handling of imports, and our business' preparation for export - then the information is available for handling under those approaches to the importing nation. The EU is comfortable such an approach is viable - after all, they're now suggesting it. Barnier's words were "simply scanning a barcode on a truck". Where the Irish would like to do that is up to them.
You really are exceptionally tiresome. First repeating the rebutted concept that there is no solution. Then twisting and turning based on tiny amounts of learning from the source you distrusted prior to the ref - after all, prior to the ref you were clear you'd have voted leave if a credible plan for leaving was proposed. Now, you're suckling at the teat of the North's for all your worth, hoping to find the reason that justifies your original premise that it's all far too difficult...
I do like the idea that its sufficient to just build the border for NI imports. So we will spend all this money building this new system which will facilitate Irelands trade with NI and the UK, while most of NI exports are stuck in lorries waiting to cross the border. You do understand that might solve the problem for Ireland but not only will the UK tax payer be paying for this new system it will also be bailing out a failed NI economy.
Edited by Mrr T on Tuesday 16th October 19:00
soupdragon1 said:
Reading between the lines, and listening to Teresa May yesterday, I think the next stage involves her 'squeezing' the DUP a little bit so that they give concessions to get the backstop signed off properly. Whether it works or not I don't know, but you get the feeling she is preparing to put them under pressure.
She can do this, by negotiating a special status for NI (which the DUP don't want) but if its better negotiated, and presented in such a way that it truly does benefit Northern Ireland and its people, the DUP will be under pressure if they did actually refuse it, effectively looking the gift horse in the mouth and punching it in the face.
The key element is the Union - and how it can be described as yes, you are still in the Union, but you are getting a special status to trade with the EU. The tricky bit is stopping the DUP turning that around and saying 'we're not the same as the rest of the UK so therefore the union is compromised' as that will be their default take on it.
would that mean the border would be down the Irish Sea?She can do this, by negotiating a special status for NI (which the DUP don't want) but if its better negotiated, and presented in such a way that it truly does benefit Northern Ireland and its people, the DUP will be under pressure if they did actually refuse it, effectively looking the gift horse in the mouth and punching it in the face.
The key element is the Union - and how it can be described as yes, you are still in the Union, but you are getting a special status to trade with the EU. The tricky bit is stopping the DUP turning that around and saying 'we're not the same as the rest of the UK so therefore the union is compromised' as that will be their default take on it.
Isn't that what Barnier is suggesting
Mrr T said:
don'tbesilly said:
As has the mendacious snake Mandelson.
78k a year for the transitional period (3 yrs) after leaving his job as Trade Commisioner in 2008, tax paid at EU 'preferential' rate.
£30-35K per year when he gets to 65, conditional on being loyal to the EU, and not uttering a published word of criticism.
You couldn't get a more discredited MP, yet the Remainers worship the ground he walks on when he bleats about a 2nd Referendum.
The great Nigel has also done very well despite rarely turning up for work. 78k a year for the transitional period (3 yrs) after leaving his job as Trade Commisioner in 2008, tax paid at EU 'preferential' rate.
£30-35K per year when he gets to 65, conditional on being loyal to the EU, and not uttering a published word of criticism.
You couldn't get a more discredited MP, yet the Remainers worship the ground he walks on when he bleats about a 2nd Referendum.
Was it better than Farage's?
Perhaps you could tell us just how many times Mandelson has had to stand down as an MP for wrong doing, how does that compare to Farage?
Was Mandelson more effective as the Trade Commissioner for the EU than Farage was/is as an MEP?
If you think so, can you back it up with something substantive?
You want to answer any of the above?
Or as I rather suspect you're pathetic point was just that.
Ghibli said:
What is it that has been spelt out to me. It's certainly not a solution to ithe Irish border problem.
You just troll.
No deal solves the Irish border solution for the UK.You just troll.
If the ROI and the EU want a borde on their side, that's their business.
Though I have a strong feeling the problem would rapidly dissapear.
gooner1 said:
No deal solves the Irish border solution for the UK.
If the ROI and the EU want a borde on their side, that's their business.
Though I have a strong feeling the problem would rapidly dissapear.
Wouldn't that be an issue for British residents and businesses, who would lose their current benefits under the CTA?If the ROI and the EU want a borde on their side, that's their business.
Though I have a strong feeling the problem would rapidly dissapear.
Mrr T said:
I am not being inconsistent. I have always said a technology border may be possible. Presenting the EU with a sheet of A4 which suggests such a border but has no detail on how it will work, no detail on how long it will take to build it not a sensible way to convince them to agree to the option. You stated quite clearly that the EU had created a proposal (which didn't include any detail about the NI/UK processes), whereas the ERG/et al hadn't. That's not true, is it. Both proposals have equal detail. The level of detail from Davis/ERG/et al has obviously been sufficient - Barnier is now a proponent of a technology solution. He's just got to decide where...
I do like the idea that its sufficient to just build the border for NI imports. So we will spend all this money building this new system which will facilitate Irelands trade with NI and the UK, while most of NI exports are stuck in lorries waiting to cross the border. You do understand that might solve the problem for Ireland but not only will the UK tax payer be paying for this new system it will also be bailing out a failed NI economy. I'm not able to influence what's acceptable to the EU. One of the reasons why I voted to Leave. What they do, is up to them. I'd suggest that seeing as there are, as you put it, costs and timescales involved, we can influence quite how quickly we implement the solution that maintains the RoI's economy considering their dependency. I'm more than happy to work collaboratively so that both parties have a trading clearance mechanism that removes borders as bottlenecks. If they wish to play antagonist, then my mood shifts somewhat.
I do like the idea that its sufficient to just build the border for NI imports. So we will spend all this money building this new system which will facilitate Irelands trade with NI and the UK, while most of NI exports are stuck in lorries waiting to cross the border. You do understand that might solve the problem for Ireland but not only will the UK tax payer be paying for this new system it will also be bailing out a failed NI economy. I'm not able to influence what's acceptable to the EU. One of the reasons why I voted to Leave. What they do, is up to them. I'd suggest that seeing as there are, as you put it, costs and timescales involved, we can influence quite how quickly we implement the solution that maintains the RoI's economy considering their dependency. I'm more than happy to work collaboratively so that both parties have a trading clearance mechanism that removes borders as bottlenecks. If they wish to play antagonist, then my mood shifts somewhat.
don'tbesilly said:
You've got the attendance record of Mandelson to hand?
Was it better than Farage's?
Perhaps you could tell us just how many times Mandelson has had to stand down as an MP for wrong doing, how does that compare to Farage?
Was Mandelson more effective as the Trade Commissioner for the EU than Farage was/is as an MEP?
If you think so, can you back it up with something substantive?
You want to answer any of the above?
Or as I rather suspect you're pathetic point was just that.
I suspect Mandelson attended the office on a regular basis.Was it better than Farage's?
Perhaps you could tell us just how many times Mandelson has had to stand down as an MP for wrong doing, how does that compare to Farage?
Was Mandelson more effective as the Trade Commissioner for the EU than Farage was/is as an MEP?
If you think so, can you back it up with something substantive?
You want to answer any of the above?
Or as I rather suspect you're pathetic point was just that.
The great Nigel was a member of the EU Parliament Fisheries committee as part of his commitment to support British fishermen he attended 1 out of 42 meeting.
Nigel never resigned from the HOC because he could never convince enough voters so he could become an MP.
I am sure he is entitled to his EU pension for all the hard work in representing his constituents in the EU parliament (sic).
desolate said:
gooner1 said:
No deal solves the Irish border solution for the UK.
If the ROI and the EU want a borde on their side, that's their business.
Though I have a strong feeling the problem would rapidly dissapear.
Wouldn't that be an issue for British residents and businesses, who would lose their current benefits under the CTA?If the ROI and the EU want a borde on their side, that's their business.
Though I have a strong feeling the problem would rapidly dissapear.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff