Blasphemy in Pakistan

Author
Discussion

Bluesgirl

766 posts

90 months

Saturday 3rd November 2018
quotequote all
You need a government willing to give people access to all information and let them make up their own minds.

No, that's what would ideally happen in a democracy, no-one's pretending that that's happening in China, North Korea etc.


How is access to information helping the Chinese citizens.

Chinese citizens don't have access to information, that's well-established. My point is that only by educating the masses will they start learning about what's happening elsewhere in the world, how democracy works, how economies are managed and governments rule. Of course it's a painfully slow process for any country to get to that point and there's evidence of the high price some people are willing to pay in the name of human rights. But there's no point in waiting for a government to hand over power/information - in places like China, that'll never happen.

In terms of the aid given to Pakistan by the UK and US governments, I would hope that that would result in a considerable level of influence/pressure that could be brought to bear in cases such as the Asia Bibi case. As far as I'm aware, that's what diplomats are there for.

Edited by Bluesgirl on Saturday 3rd November 21:30

del mar

2,838 posts

198 months

Saturday 3rd November 2018
quotequote all
BlackLabel said:
Pakistan is number one when it comes to where we send the most aid - almost £500 million a year now.

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-spending-foreign-a...

It could be worse - spare a thought for the poor American taxpayers, they've given Pakistan at least $30 billion in aid since 2001.
And Imran Khan is still going round with the begging bowl to Saudi and China to avoid another imf bail out.

True **** hole of a country



Troubleatmill

10,210 posts

158 months

Saturday 3rd November 2018
quotequote all
Thankfully - At least we aren't importing their pond life en masse.

del mar

2,838 posts

198 months

Sunday 4th November 2018
quotequote all
del mar said:
BlackLabel said:
Pakistan is number one when it comes to where we send the most aid - almost £500 million a year now.

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-spending-foreign-a...

It could be worse - spare a thought for the poor American taxpayers, they've given Pakistan at least $30 billion in aid since 2001.
And Imran Khan is still going round with the begging bowl to Saudi and China to avoid another imf bail out.

True **** hole of a country
China has “re education camps”, yet Pakistan can ignore this as they are so desperate for cash.





Bluesgirl

766 posts

90 months

Sunday 4th November 2018
quotequote all
You're just being offensive for the sake of it.

Yes, educated people here have gone off to fight/support Isis and we've had people dressing up in KKK costumes for Halloween. I don't think that means that the vast majority of the population doesn't appreciate that this is wrong. Education informs debate - this very thread demonstrates that - and the more people, especially young people, are aware of the shortcomings of their own cultures and religions, the more there is a chance that, in time, things can change. That's not to say that there won't always be fanatics, but maybe they'll be recognised as such and dismissed.

Blue Oval84

5,276 posts

160 months

Sunday 4th November 2018
quotequote all
Apparently the woman's family have applied to the UK, Canada and the US, amongst others, for asylum.

Personally, this seems like a worthy and genuine case for the granting of asylum, and I hope they get it.

voyds9

8,488 posts

282 months

Sunday 4th November 2018
quotequote all
Bluesgirl said:
You need a government willing to give people access to all information and let them make up their own minds.

No, that's what would ideally happen in a democracy, no-one's pretending that that's happening in China, North Korea etc.


How is access to information helping the Chinese citizens.

Chinese citizens don't have access to information, that's well-established. My point is that only by educating the masses will they start learning about what's happening elsewhere in the world, how democracy works, how economies are managed and governments rule. Of course it's a painfully slow process for any country to get to that point and there's evidence of the high price some people are willing to pay in the name of human rights. But there's no point in waiting for a government to hand over power/information - in places like China, that'll never happen.

In terms of the aid given to Pakistan by the UK and US governments, I would hope that that would result in a considerable level of influence/pressure that could be brought to bear in cases such as the Asia Bibi case. As far as I'm aware, that's what diplomats are there for.

Edited by Bluesgirl on Saturday 3rd November 21:30
And the point I was trying to make is education means one thing in the West but in other countries it means indoctrination.

Bluesgirl

766 posts

90 months

Sunday 4th November 2018
quotequote all
Acknowledged.

However, sometimes things don't go according to plan...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Squ...

Thorodin

2,459 posts

132 months

Sunday 4th November 2018
quotequote all
Bluesgirl said:
You need a government willing to give people access to all information and let them make up their own minds.

No, that's what would ideally happen in a democracy, no-one's pretending that that's happening in China, North Korea etc.


How is access to information helping the Chinese citizens.

Chinese citizens don't have access to information, that's well-established. My point is that only by educating the masses will they start learning about what's happening elsewhere in the world, how democracy works, how economies are managed and governments rule. Of course it's a painfully slow process for any country to get to that point and there's evidence of the high price some people are willing to pay in the name of human rights. But there's no point in waiting for a government to hand over power/information - in places like China, that'll never happen.

In terms of the aid given to Pakistan by the UK and US governments, I would hope that that would result in a considerable level of influence/pressure that could be brought to bear in cases such as the Asia Bibi case. As far as I'm aware, that's what diplomats are there for.

Edited by Bluesgirl on Saturday 3rd November 21:30
Can't help wondering to whom, or what, is this donation of massive funds for Pakistan is made out to. Is it a personal cheque, separate isolated donations to undisclosed individuals or agencies. or a block transfer to their treasury? Are there any follow-ups done to validate the funds have been used for the causes given the publicity? Is there any evidence that funds bring about disaster relief or alleviation of privation of any kind whatsoever? If there is any doubt or obfuscation, then we are complicit in every one of these atrocities and if there are UK beneficiaries we want to know whom and how. Far from using diplomacy to bring about political and civil change we are perpetuating a tragedy. It may be what diplomats are there for, and one wonders why so little strides have been taken since division and the performance of those diplomats, but is most definitely not what International Aid is for.

BlackLabel

13,251 posts

122 months

Sunday 4th November 2018
quotequote all
It’s wishful thinking to assume that our aid to Pakistan buys us any sort of influence when it comes to Asia Bibi type cases. The benefits of our aid are security related imo - for example information shared by the Pakistanis has helped to foil numerous terror attacks in the U.K. since 9/11. Also, there are over 1.2 million Brits of Pakistani origin living in the U.K. - maintaining cordial relations with Pakistan will have a lot to do with that. And of course there’s the war in Afghanistan - without Pakistan’s cooperation we’d have to rely on the central Asian former soviet states for things like supply routes.

del mar

2,838 posts

198 months

Sunday 4th November 2018
quotequote all
Bluesgirl said:
You're just being offensive for the sake of it.

Yes, educated people here have gone off to fight/support Isis and we've had people dressing up in KKK costumes for Halloween. I don't think that means that the vast majority of the population doesn't appreciate that this is wrong. Education informs debate - this very thread demonstrates that - and the more people, especially young people, are aware of the shortcomings of their own cultures and religions, the more there is a chance that, in time, things can change. That's not to say that there won't always be fanatics, but maybe they'll be recognised as such and dismissed.
What happened to my post ?

It was factually correct, university students have gone to live under Isis.

Your assumption is that the religion has “shortcomings” and that educating the youth will somehow allow them to recognise these.

That makes perfect sense to you and I, but not to the deeply religious.

I suggested that Islam had a bit of a pr issue, to which the response was “only to racists like you”, or words to that effect.

It is the most perfect teligion ever, as laid out by the most perfect man ever - what shortcomings are there ?




Edited by del mar on Sunday 4th November 20:58

del mar

2,838 posts

198 months

Sunday 4th November 2018
quotequote all
Blue Oval84 said:
Apparently the woman's family have applied to the UK, Canada and the US, amongst others, for asylum.

Personally, this seems like a worthy and genuine case for the granting of asylum, and I hope they get it.
She will never be safe.

The ahmadi shopkeeper in Glasgow thought that he was safe.




Edited by del mar on Sunday 4th November 20:58

Russian Troll Bot

24,942 posts

226 months

Monday 5th November 2018
quotequote all
del mar said:
Blue Oval84 said:
Apparently the woman's family have applied to the UK, Canada and the US, amongst others, for asylum.

Personally, this seems like a worthy and genuine case for the granting of asylum, and I hope they get it.
She will never be safe.

The ahmadi shopkeeper in Glasgow thought that he was safe.




Edited by del mar on Sunday 4th November 20:58
Would still be safer here though, and sounds like exactly the sort of person our asylum system is meant for.


Sometimes you really have to step back and wonder how, in 2018, we have mass riots because a woman has not been executed for drinking from a cup of water. These aren't extremists doing the rioting and killing, nor are they what we are always told are the tiny minority who give the rest a bad name. These are ordinary people, and there seems to be a complete lack of condemnation from our government or opposition

del mar

2,838 posts

198 months

Monday 5th November 2018
quotequote all
Russian Troll Bot said:
Would still be safer here though, and sounds like exactly the sort of person our asylum system is meant for.


Sometimes you really have to step back and wonder how, in 2018, we have mass riots because a woman has not been executed for drinking from a cup of water. These aren't extremists doing the rioting and killing, nor are they what we are always told are the tiny minority who give the rest a bad name. These are ordinary people, and there seems to be a complete lack of condemnation from our government or opposition
That is the point though.

These people are not terrorists, they have no interest in going to join ISIS, they are just deeply religious Muslims that are very protective of their religion / prophet. They would be horrified if they knew that we thought they were terrorists.




Russian Troll Bot

24,942 posts

226 months

Monday 5th November 2018
quotequote all
del mar said:
Russian Troll Bot said:
Would still be safer here though, and sounds like exactly the sort of person our asylum system is meant for.


Sometimes you really have to step back and wonder how, in 2018, we have mass riots because a woman has not been executed for drinking from a cup of water. These aren't extremists doing the rioting and killing, nor are they what we are always told are the tiny minority who give the rest a bad name. These are ordinary people, and there seems to be a complete lack of condemnation from our government or opposition
That is the point though.

These people are not terrorists, they have no interest in going to join ISIS, they are just deeply religious Muslims that are very protective of their religion / prophet. They would be horrified if they knew that we thought they were terrorists.
I really don't think they would care less. ISIS don't think they're terrorists, they think they are doing the work of God and protecting their prophet.

turbomoped

4,180 posts

82 months

Monday 5th November 2018
quotequote all
As mad as this seems what does a country do with this situation? You cant really crack down on such a large amount of people as thats like starting a civil war.
You just have to try and educate it out of them. You can only guess that a lot of the funding for the ultra religious schools comes from places like KSA so maybe the murderous bellend there will get leant on to stop it.
Actually it worth noting that the merciless entity that would snuff you out for an idea is a government like in ksa,china or north korea and some I haven't remembered.
At least Pakistan tries to be democratic as nutty as the place seems.

del mar

2,838 posts

198 months

Monday 5th November 2018
quotequote all
turbomoped said:
As mad as this seems what does a country do with this situation? You cant really crack down on such a large amount of people as thats like starting a civil war.
You just have to try and educate it out of them. You can only guess that a lot of the funding for the ultra religious schools comes from places like KSA so maybe the murderous bellend there will get leant on to stop it.
Actually it worth noting that the merciless entity that would snuff you out for an idea is a government like in ksa,china or north korea and some I haven't remembered.
At least Pakistan tries to be democratic as nutty as the place seems.
Why would the Islamic Republic of Pakistan need to do / change anything ?

The law is quite clear, she had broken it and the punishment is death.


Troubleatmill

10,210 posts

158 months

Monday 5th November 2018
quotequote all
del mar said:
Why would the Islamic Republic of Pakistan need to do / change anything ?

The law is quite clear, she had broken it and the punishment is death.
Let me fix that for you...

The law is quite clear, she has been accused of breaking it and the punishment is death.


I think it is like Pakistan X Factor. Let the public decide.

del mar

2,838 posts

198 months

Monday 5th November 2018
quotequote all
The Times states;

“Protests by islamists”

Trying to paint the picture that this action is extreme and un Islamic and that there is something wrong with these people.

It is not

DrDeAtH

3,586 posts

231 months

Tuesday 6th November 2018
quotequote all
del mar said:
there is something wrong with these people.
The above would be a better way of putting it...