Theresa May (Vol.2)

Author
Discussion

andymadmak

10,095 posts

209 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
Ghibli said:
olimain said:
Jimboka said:
Technology won’t stop EU citizens walking into UK & vice versa at the NI border
Therefore we won’t have Brexited
Quite how people still don’t get this I don’t understand. It does, however, explain why the misinformed were throwing around the racist card so much.

It is not about stopping people travelling to the UK. What you describe above is not an issue for all but the lunatic fringe.
Please do explain how it will work with no border and no checks, while you are at it please explain how it is racist.
It's been explained to you umpteen times. You really are just trolling by asking this question again. But in case you've just got a really short memory I'll explain it to you again, this time really simply, so that hopefully you will remember it for the future.

1. The CTA between UK and Eire has been in existence for a long, long time (longer than the EU!)

2. It's never been an issue (aside from during the worst of the troubles) for people to move freely between Eire and NI

3. Because Eire is an island, and not in Schengen, getting into Eire requires passport or similar ID be shown in order to travel from elsewhere in Europe/World just the same as it requires one to go to the UK mainland (because UK is also not in Schengen)

4. Since both UK and Eire are outside of Schengen, and because the CTA allows for free movement of people across the NI/Eire border, as a practical matter this means that the UK and Eire effectively police each others borders. (it's a bit more complicated than that, but in essence that is what happens)

5. This 'mutual policing' has been going on ever since the CTA came into being

6. Strictly speaking, if an EU national really desperately wanted to get to the UK, and if he was unable to hop on a cross channel ferry, he could instead find his way to Eire, make his way up to NI, cross the border and enter the UK there. To get to the mainland he would then have to show his passport to either board a ferry or an aeroplane (all of which rather begs the question why he simply didn't do that at Calais and save the faff of the detour via Eire)

7. Of course, if you REALLY want to be pedantic and make yourself look very very silly you could try to argue that the CTA effectively means we don't control our borders at the point where Eire meets NI, and that somehow this little detail means we won't have Brexited (or something like that). But only a very silly person would argue that, because in reality Brexit was not ever about tearing up the CTA between Eire and NI.

8. Comment about racism is an obvious reference to earlier Remainer tactics. But you know this


Now, please do stop trolling the thread!

Coolbanana

1,786 posts

139 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
Ghibli said:
Please do explain how it will work with no border and no checks, while you are at it please explain how it is racist.
I’ll be the first to admit, that the NI Border question is a bit of a puzzler.

I’m no Expert in the Technology that has been proposed; 'Max-Fac' and 'Blockchain' etc but I do have questions borne of curiosity given my own non-expert status on the subject that I guess will be answered as time goes by.

It doesn’t take much research to see that around the World, countries are looking at tech to police Customs borders seriously with some major investment and testing going on – including by the EU.

Blockchain and Max-Fac sounds nice, in theory. How does it properly address Customs fraud though?

Surely it relies heavily upon everyone to pre-register for Checks and to be very diligent in their declarations? The tech will then track the vehicles and instead of trying to identify what each load is, look for suspicious activity instead? Great stuff.

How does it police all the small roads and farms that criss-cross the Border? Drones? How many? Will the people of NI / Republic take kindly to drones or other invasive Customs controls that ‘ooo, could be used by Big Brother for other stuff too’? Would you be happy with a drone over your house watching your every move?

A return to a hard border is not just about monitoring the main routes, surely? It involves the entire border. Attempting to do that is where the GFA is in peril, is it not?

So Blockchain is working, hypothetically, but random physical checks still need to be carried out or don't they? Where and how? I mean, screening is all very good but only really if you are looking for bomb materials. So, we have a vehicle entering in, registered, blockchain working, but it has a few illegal items on board. Screening doesn’t detect this if it is not a specific type of contraband .

Max-Fac is on the road to a future solution, no doubt. But it has many flaws at present from what I read without the complications of the border between NI and Ireland. Singapore is trying it out but in perfect conditions compared to the border we are discussing.

Then the people smuggling. Imagine a Middle Eastern gentleman, disgruntled, wants to try his luck earning some £££'s or even go out with a bang in the UK. He may have been given permission to be in the EU and acquired free movement rights after a time so can freely roam around it – something many in the UK are concerned about; those Refugees in Germany, eh? Nasty business.

So he gets into Ireland because, well, it is the EU. Then he strolls up to the Max-Fac border and, what? Who stops him? Do we have Police Border Patrols ala ‘not allowed under the GFA’ going about? You, know, the physical control that Max-Fac is supposed to remove?
Next thing, he has blown up your local chippy. How is that different to now, you yell! Well, it isn’t, except for an EU-wide collaboration of policing against anyone thought to be a bit naughty.

A No Deal Brexit will throw up the physical border precisely to stop Customs fraud and the odd undesirable getting though; welcome, no? But all noise suggests a return to sectarian violence and potentially bombs in London if the GFA goes pop as a result.

A Tech-based deal alone, with current technology isn’t there yet. It just isn’t since it relies upon perfect scenarios all round. The EU, quite rightly, is not going to sign a Treaty based upon “the technology will catch up at some point in the Future”

So there is no great solution, really, other than what exists now....

Or am I wrong? Happy to stand corrected, as I say, just an Average Joe musing here! Might be a complete ignoramus! biggrin



saaby93

25,078 posts

117 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
Ghibli said:
olimain said:
Jimboka said:
Technology won’t stop EU citizens walking into UK & vice versa at the NI border
Therefore we won’t have Brexited
Quite how people still don’t get this I don’t understand. It does, however, explain why the misinformed were throwing around the racist card so much.
It is not about stopping people travelling to the UK. What you describe above is not an issue for all but the lunatic fringe.
Please do explain how it will work with no border and no checks, while you are at it please explain how it is racist.
It's been explained to you umpteen times. You really are just trolling by asking this question again. But in case you've just got a really short memory I'll explain it to you again, this time really simply, so that hopefully you will remember it for the future.
1. The CTA between UK and Eire has been in existence for a long, long time (longer than the EU!)
2. It's never been an issue (aside from during the worst of the troubles) for people to move freely between Eire and NI
3. Because Eire is an island, and not in Schengen, getting into Eire requires passport or similar ID be shown in order to travel from elsewhere in Europe/World just the same as it requires one to go to the UK mainland (because UK is also not in Schengen)
4. Since both UK and Eire are outside of Schengen, and because the CTA allows for free movement of people across the NI/Eire border, as a practical matter this means that the UK and Eire effectively police each others borders. (it's a bit more complicated than that, but in essence that is what happens)
5. This 'mutual policing' has been going on ever since the CTA came into being
6. Strictly speaking, if an EU national really desperately wanted to get to the UK, and if he was unable to hop on a cross channel ferry, he could instead find his way to Eire, make his way up to NI, cross the border and enter the UK there. To get to the mainland he would then have to show his passport to either board a ferry or an aeroplane (all of which rather begs the question why he simply didn't do that at Calais and save the faff of the detour via Eire)
7. Of course, if you REALLY want to be pedantic and make yourself look very very silly you could try to argue that the CTA effectively means we don't control our borders at the point where Eire meets NI, and that somehow this little detail means we won't have Brexited (or something like that). But only a very silly person would argue that, because in reality Brexit was not ever about tearing up the CTA between Eire and NI.
Thats ok from a freedom of movement point of view but not from a transfer of goods point of view where there may be different taxes on different products. There's already smuggling of some goods across the Irish border with the countries both in the EU
There are aslo already limitations on movements of livestock across the Irish Sea to NI.

The coming out of the EU on March 29th and and putting in a trade agreement from that date seems to resolve the issues.
NI business has said it's happy. It's not clear what would make the DUP happy, but hasnt that always been the case.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46269757


Edited by saaby93 on Tuesday 20th November 08:53

andymadmak

10,095 posts

209 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
saaby93 said:
andymadmak said:
Ghibli said:
olimain said:
Jimboka said:
Technology won’t stop EU citizens walking into UK & vice versa at the NI border
Therefore we won’t have Brexited
Quite how people still don’t get this I don’t understand. It does, however, explain why the misinformed were throwing around the racist card so much.

It is not about stopping people travelling to the UK. What you describe above is not an issue for all but the lunatic fringe.
Please do explain how it will work with no border and no checks, while you are at it please explain how it is racist.
It's been explained to you umpteen times. You really are just trolling by asking this question again. But in case you've just got a really short memory I'll explain it to you again, this time really simply, so that hopefully you will remember it for the future.

1. The CTA between UK and Eire has been in existence for a long, long time (longer than the EU!)

2. It's never been an issue (aside from during the worst of the troubles) for people to move freely between Eire and NI

3. Because Eire is an island, and not in Schengen, getting into Eire requires passport or similar ID be shown in order to travel from elsewhere in Europe/World just the same as it requires one to go to the UK mainland (because UK is also not in Schengen)

4. Since both UK and Eire are outside of Schengen, and because the CTA allows for free movement of people across the NI/Eire border, as a practical matter this means that the UK and Eire effectively police each others borders. (it's a bit more complicated than that, but in essence that is what happens)

5. This 'mutual policing' has been going on ever since the CTA came into being

6. Strictly speaking, if an EU national really desperately wanted to get to the UK, and if he was unable to hop on a cross channel ferry, he could instead find his way to Eire, make his way up to NI, cross the border and enter the UK there. To get to the mainland he would then have to show his passport to either board a ferry or an aeroplane (all of which rather begs the question why he simply didn't do that at Calais and save the faff of the detour via Eire)

7. Of course, if you REALLY want to be pedantic and make yourself look very very silly you could try to argue that the CTA effectively means we don't control our borders at the point where Eire meets NI, and that somehow this little detail means we won't have Brexited (or something like that). But only a very silly person would argue that, because in reality Brexit was not ever about tearing up the CTA between Eire and NI.

8. Comment about racism is an obvious reference to earlier Remainer tactics. But you know this

Now, please do stop trolling the thread!
Thats ok from a freedom of movement point of view but not from a transfer of goods point of view where there may be different taxes on different products. There's already smuggling of some goods across the Irish border with the countries both in the EU
There are aslo already limitations on movements of livestock across the Irish Sea to NI.

The coming out of the EU on March 29th and and putting in a trade agreement from that date seems to resolve the issues.
NI business has said it's happy. It's not clear what would make the DUP happy, but hasnt that always been the case.
The post was in response to Jimboka's and Ghibli's ridiculous posts.
Movement of goods across the border has always been subject to different rules.

andymadmak

10,095 posts

209 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
Coolbanana said:
Then the people smuggling. Imagine a Middle Eastern gentleman, disgruntled, wants to try his luck earning some £££'s or even go out with a bang in the UK. He may have been given permission to be in the EU and acquired free movement rights after a time so can freely roam around it – something many in the UK are concerned about; those Refugees in Germany, eh? Nasty business.

So he gets into Ireland because, well, it is the EU. Then he strolls up to the Max-Fac border and, what? Who stops him? Do we have Police Border Patrols ala ‘not allowed under the GFA’ going about? You, know, the physical control that Max-Fac is supposed to remove?
Next thing, he has blown up your local chippy. How is that different to now, you yell! Well, it isn’t, except for an EU-wide collaboration of policing against anyone thought to be a bit naughty.

.......
Or am I wrong? Happy to stand corrected, as I say, just an Average Joe musing here! Might be a complete ignoramus! biggrin
For a start, there is the Schengen issue. So just being an EU citizen does not mean that your suicide bomber can stroll into Eire, or even into the UK mainland for that matter. He will have to show his passport (or similar) to get to either place and if he is an identified risk he will (hopefully ) be stopped by either the Garda or British police.
However, if he is not on a risk list then yes, he will stroll right in and destroy your chippy.....just like he would be able to do today. It's the EU that is threatening to withhold security cooperation on terrorism. Perhaps you should have a word with them?

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alfie2244

9,471 posts

127 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
Just to add myself to the new volume...not sure if at all relevant though.

I have just had a few days in Eire.........not once was I asked for any form of ID whatsoever either going over or coming back.........although I was asked my nationality through the car window just before boarding the ferry and that was it.

Seems to me that the post Brexit issue of movement between UK/NI & Eire is being weaponised.

soupdragon1

1,528 posts

36 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
alfie2244 said:
Just to add myself to the new volume...not sure if at all relevant though.

I have just had a few days in Eire.........not once was I asked for any form of ID whatsoever either going over or coming back.........although I was asked my nationality through the car window just before boarding the ferry and that was it.

Seems to me that the post Brexit issue of movement between UK/NI & Eire is being weaponised.
That's due to the CTA, common travel area. Been like that for quite some time and will continue, regardless of the Brexit outcome.

Helicopter123

5,279 posts

95 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
alfie2244 said:
Just to add myself to the new volume...not sure if at all relevant though.

I have just had a few days in Eire.........not once was I asked for any form of ID whatsoever either going over or coming back.........although I was asked my nationality through the car window just before boarding the ferry and that was it.

Seems to me that the post Brexit issue of movement between UK/NI & Eire is being weaponised.
With all due respect, we are trying to avoid the border becoming "weaponised", that's the problem.

2.5 years and still no solution found that works for everyone, but at least understanding that the GFA trumps Brexit.

The DUP alone will ensure that.

Edited by Helicopter123 on Tuesday 20th November 09:33


Edited by Helicopter123 on Tuesday 20th November 09:45

Coolbanana

1,786 posts

139 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
For a start, there is the Schengen issue. So just being an EU citizen does not mean that your suicide bomber can stroll into Eire, or even into the UK mainland for that matter. He will have to show his passport (or similar) to get to either place and if he is an identified risk he will (hopefully ) be stopped by either the Garda or British police.
However, if he is not on a risk list then yes, he will stroll right in and destroy your chippy.....just like he would be able to do today. It's the EU that is threatening to withhold security cooperation on terrorism. Perhaps you should have a word with them?
I will have a word with them!

Indeed, I love the Schengen system and take full advantage.

However, as I mused, right now, they are stuck in Germany, but given free movement and, as you add, are undetected by any security agency or perhaps are on a watch list yet still allowed to roam free but it is not relayed to the UK in good time, could conceivably end up in Ireland. Now, that actually isn't an issue for the EU at this point if he is headed for the UK, it is more an issue for the UK. How does the UK, without a Hard Border, stop Mr Refugee with a valid German Passport from strolling across to visit Blackpool's finest Chippy?

I realise it is no different to today except for, possibly, better cooperation between the EU / UK but my point being...tech doesn't prevent Mr Unhappy from getting into the UK. Only a Hard Border might...and a Hard Border is more a UK issue with NI and the GFA than an EU one...

I'm on record before as stating that I think the whole NI issue is immature and precious and a Hard Border shouldn't be an issue in this day and age, but, it does exist and I cannot see a will from within any UK Government to tell the World that they are going to breach the GFA.

The EU can throw up a Hard Border though. Naturally, it would involve major arguments with Ireland but they could force it if they wanted to and the problem will bounce right back to the UK and its NI State and the stoopid sectarian nonsense.




Edited by Coolbanana on Tuesday 20th November 09:33

BlackLabel

11,372 posts

62 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all

Reciprocating mass

5,350 posts

180 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
Well if she doesn’t go they have a short period of time to clear out there desks ready for the next shower of st to take over

wc98

7,580 posts

79 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
olimain said:
Ghibli said:
olimain said:
Jimboka said:
Technology won’t stop EU citizens walking into UK & vice versa at the NI border
Therefore we won’t have Brexited
Quite how people still don’t get this I don’t understand. It does, however, explain why the misinformed were throwing around the racist card so much.

It is not about stopping people travelling to the UK. What you describe above is not an issue for all but the lunatic fringe.
Please do explain how it will work with no border and no checks, while you are at it please explain how it is racist.
How what will work?
It isn’t racist!
as you said, only the lunatic fringe don't seem to understand that most people don't have a problem with that situation.

johnxjsc1985

15,209 posts

103 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
SO much is going on behind the scenes with May. I can see why MP's haven't yet sent their letters in because they may not have to given what is coming up and with the DUP raising the prospect of a GE by with drawing support.
I am still fascinated to see the outcome as She still thinks she can get this through Parliament by appealing to P's sense of National Duty. She alone has driven this into a Cul-De-Sac its hard to see how she get out of it.

DeejRC

832 posts

21 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
Thanks for the reply Saaby. I’m not sure I fully agree with you with respect to both sides trying to satisfy the DUP. I’m not entirely sure if either side has actually acted in any manner towards the DUP.
I fully accept the DUP are not the most flexible of folks, but this was my rather simple point. The DUP rejecting the finance bill and killing the C&S agreement is therefore rational and logical from their position.

Ghibli

3,567 posts

46 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
The post was in response to Jimboka's and Ghibli's ridiculous posts.
Movement of goods across the border has always been subject to different rules.
So any person who has the right to enter Southern Ireland also has the right to enter the uk via NI.

paulrockliffe

8,066 posts

166 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
Ghibli said:
andymadmak said:
The post was in response to Jimboka's and Ghibli's ridiculous posts.
Movement of goods across the border has always been subject to different rules.
So any person who has the right to enter Southern Ireland also has the right to enter the uk via NI.
Dear god. We literally had pages of this last week that you didn't understand. Please stop.

Vanden Saab

1,883 posts

13 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
Coolbanana said:
I will have a word with them!

Indeed, I love the Schengen system and take full advantage.

However, as I mused, right now, they are stuck in Germany, but given free movement and, as you add, are undetected by any security agency or perhaps are on a watch list yet still allowed to roam free but it is not relayed to the UK in good time, could conceivably end up in Ireland. Now, that actually isn't an issue for the EU at this point if he is headed for the UK, it is more an issue for the UK. How does the UK, without a Hard Border, stop Mr Refugee with a valid German Passport from strolling across to visit Blackpool's finest Chippy?

I realise it is no different to today except for, possibly, better cooperation between the EU / UK but my point being...tech doesn't prevent Mr Unhappy from getting into the UK. Only a Hard Border might...and a Hard Border is more a UK issue with NI and the GFA than an EU one...

I'm on record before as stating that I think the whole NI issue is immature and precious and a Hard Border shouldn't be an issue in this day and age, but, it does exist and I cannot see a will from within any UK Government to tell the World that they are going to breach the GFA.

The EU can throw up a Hard Border though. Naturally, it would involve major arguments with Ireland but they could force it if they wanted to and the problem will bounce right back to the UK and its NI State and the stoopid sectarian nonsense.




Edited by Coolbanana on Tuesday 20th November 09:33
If Mr refugee has a valid German passport he can just cross from calais to Dover or catch the eurostar why would he go to Ireland first?

Ghibli

3,567 posts

46 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
paulrockliffe said:
Ghibli said:
andymadmak said:
The post was in response to Jimboka's and Ghibli's ridiculous posts.
Movement of goods across the border has always been subject to different rules.
So any person who has the right to enter Southern Ireland also has the right to enter the uk via NI.
Dear god. We literally had pages of this last week that you didn't understand. Please stop.
You could answer the question with either a yes or no.
There are pages of wrong information.

alfie2244

9,471 posts

127 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
Coolbanana said:
Indeed, I love the Schengen system and take full advantage.


Edited by Coolbanana on Tuesday 20th November 09:33
You are a UK citizen (Joint SA?) AFAIK the UK isn't in the Schengen system apart from the part of law enforcement cooperation?

ETA whilst we are on the subject.......Ireland isn't in it either.

Edited by alfie2244 on Tuesday 20th November 11:02

WCZ

6,293 posts

133 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
quotequote all
olimain said:
How what will work?
It isn’t racist!
for what it's worth May has proven that brexiters aren't racist by the simple fact the majority of them are vocal about being unhappy with the current deal which would give us control of our borders, immigration etc wasn't as much of a factor as people presumed.