Theresa May (Vol.2)
Discussion
gizlaroc said:
I was saying one of the things that was clear during the referendum, as it came from both sides, was to leave we would be leaving the single market and custom union, for better or for worse.
'Leave?' was the extent of the question. In which case, logic dictates that those who voted yes, 1) Wanted to leave the EU and 2) Are prepared to do so to the fullest extent (ie. no deal). The 'yes' wasn't conditional on a level or type of exit, or any specific deal. It was simply 'leave'.You can presume no more than the desire to leave from the vote.
Which makes those saying 'no deal' is a very bad thing and must be avoided at all costs, at odds with the outcome of the referendum. The people voted for an exit. That logically includes no deal. The exit is what must be delivered.
If the government wish to consult the population again, it should only be on the basis of which option is preferred to effect the exit.
powerstroke said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Ghibli said:
Isn't that what May intends to do.
Certainly appears that way to me.
What isnt clear is why some groups are trying to portray the deal as bad (surely bad is leaving without a decent deal)
They'll have their own reasons, more about politics than benefit to us mere mortals and the country
janesmith1950 said:
'Leave?' was the extent of the question. In which case, logic dictates that those who voted yes, 1) Wanted to leave the EU and 2) Are prepared to do so to the fullest extent (ie. no deal). The 'yes' wasn't conditional on a level or type of exit, or any specific deal. It was simply 'leave'.
Except that's nonsense. There are shades of stay or leave AND for many the decision wasn't as digital as you call it. The leave campaign had no vision, only vague promises of upside. Some of those promises were an utter nonsense. I want too leave, but have to pragmatic on the cost of it. The deal as presented is poor. No deal is a step into the abyss; but we now have an ineffective leadership paralysed to do anything / capitalise OR pass the necessary legislation to survive on WTO. May is digging a hole for her self. There is no longer trust in our elected representatives - the HoC isn't going to fall in line. The Tories are split, and Labour will abandon policy to force a GE. She has to consider another public vote; but force people to vote (as mandatory as possible).
Another public vote can stop the rot; and get a clear steer from the population without party politic (or zealots) which has failed the UK population.
stongle said:
janesmith1950 said:
'Leave?' was the extent of the question. In which case, logic dictates that those who voted yes, 1) Wanted to leave the EU and 2) Are prepared to do so to the fullest extent (ie. no deal). The 'yes' wasn't conditional on a level or type of exit, or any specific deal. It was simply 'leave'.
Except that's nonsense. There are shades of stay or leave AND for many the decision wasn't as digital as you call it. The leave campaign had no vision, only vague promises of upside. Some of those promises were an utter nonsense. I want too leave, but have to pragmatic on the cost of it. The deal as presented is poor. No deal is a step into the abyss; but we now have an ineffective leadership paralysed to do anything / capitalise OR pass the necessary legislation to survive on WTO. May is digging a hole for her self. There is no longer trust in our elected representatives - the HoC isn't going to fall in line. The Tories are split, and Labour will abandon policy to force a GE. She has to consider another public vote; but force people to vote (as mandatory as possible).
Another public vote can stop the rot; and get a clear steer from the population without party politic (or zealots) which has failed the UK population.
VoteLeave;
So those who wanted to remain think May's deal is pretty good?
So would the people's vote be May's deal vs leaving on WTO rules?
Surely that would be the ultimate compromise?
It could bring the country together again, we stand by the result of the first referendum and those that would have rather remained have got something they can live with?
So would the people's vote be May's deal vs leaving on WTO rules?
Surely that would be the ultimate compromise?
It could bring the country together again, we stand by the result of the first referendum and those that would have rather remained have got something they can live with?
stongle said:
janesmith1950 said:
'Leave?' was the extent of the question. In which case, logic dictates that those who voted yes, 1) Wanted to leave the EU and 2) Are prepared to do so to the fullest extent (ie. no deal). The 'yes' wasn't conditional on a level or type of exit, or any specific deal. It was simply 'leave'.
Except that's nonsense. There are shades of stay or leave AND for many the decision wasn't as digital as you call it. The leave campaign had no vision, only vague promises of upside. Some of those promises were an utter nonsense. I want too leave, but have to pragmatic on the cost of it. The deal as presented is poor. No deal is a step into the abyss; but we now have an ineffective leadership paralysed to do anything / capitalise OR pass the necessary legislation to survive on WTO. May is digging a hole for her self. There is no longer trust in our elected representatives - the HoC isn't going to fall in line. The Tories are split, and Labour will abandon policy to force a GE. She has to consider another public vote; but force people to vote (as mandatory as possible).
What type of country do you think this is
BTw there is no choice of leave or leave to the fullest extent
March 29th is Leave with no shades of grey on it, it's leave
In parallel there is an option deal which in some quarters has been presented as poor.
It does resolve many of the leave issues which would still need resolving if there was no deal
They didnt take 540 days over it, without it appearing to be reasonable
It's so bad the Americans are satirising us: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mtet4-dJy8&fe...
stongle said:
....She has to consider another public vote; but force people to vote (as mandatory as possible).
Another public vote can stop the rot; and get a clear steer from the population without party politic (or zealots) which has failed the UK population.
You can't force people to vote. Another public vote can stop the rot; and get a clear steer from the population without party politic (or zealots) which has failed the UK population.
What question do you think could be asked in another referendum that would stop the rot?
Including Remain definitively won't do that. The genie of our feelings towards the EU is out of the bottle. Any lesser voter turnout and without a huge majority will simply deepen the divide.
Not including Remain definitively won't do that as those bleating for another vote will simply continue to do so.
With Leave only, which options do you include? May's deal has no support whatsoever, mainly because it has no sensible exit arrangement. No deal keeps being touted as disastrous for the economy - I'm personally not sure that stacks up with the scenarios/forecasts provided, but I don't think there's room for sensible, unemotive debate on it. The EU are telling us there is no other deal.
So what next?
Personally I don't think we will ever get a sensible FTA with the EU from the position we are in. This is tragic as it *should* have been straightforward bearing in mind where both counterparts are starting from. But hey ho. May's ineptitude now has us in an all but impossible position.
gizlaroc said:
What are you going on about?
Even Cameron and Osborne, campaigning to remain, said that if we voted to leave it would be a vote to come out of the single market.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PDHnZGFdSs
It seems you don't quite grasp that it doesn't matter what the remain camp said. It was defeated. Even Cameron and Osborne, campaigning to remain, said that if we voted to leave it would be a vote to come out of the single market.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PDHnZGFdSs
The leave camp said there were all sorts of options with regards to our relationship with the EU. Their argument was so convincing that people followed it. That's the only one that matters.
Leave said there was a choice of what we could do. It was never true. Even they didn't believe it. But they said it.
La Liga said:
It's so bad the Americans are satirising us: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mtet4-dJy8&fe...
sublime
Murph7355 said:
You can't force people to vote.
What question do you think could be asked in another referendum that would stop the rot?
Including Remain definitively won't do that. The genie of our feelings towards the EU is out of the bottle. Any lesser voter turnout and without a huge majority will simply deepen the divide.
Not including Remain definitively won't do that as those bleating for another vote will simply continue to do so.
With Leave only, which options do you include? May's deal has no support whatsoever, mainly because it has no sensible exit arrangement. No deal keeps being touted as disastrous for the economy - I'm personally not sure that stacks up with the scenarios/forecasts provided, but I don't think there's room for sensible, unemotive debate on it. The EU are telling us there is no other deal.
So what next?
Personally I don't think we will ever get a sensible FTA with the EU from the position we are in. This is tragic as it *should* have been straightforward bearing in mind where both counterparts are starting from. But hey ho. May's ineptitude now has us in an all but impossible position.
Well I guess you can't, but I'd hope that given the ineptitude of politicians of ALL colours; means it would be nice if the population take control. Personally I think another vote would get a bigger turnout - hopefully to signal the politicians the country has had enough of their self serving politic. Maybe its a but naïve; but I have to believe the country is smarter than elected zealots otherwise we're doomed. May defending an ineffective HoC is insane in my mind, credibility is trashed and the country is turning against them. Its very possible we'd see a Macron type candidate before the next GE in 2022.What question do you think could be asked in another referendum that would stop the rot?
Including Remain definitively won't do that. The genie of our feelings towards the EU is out of the bottle. Any lesser voter turnout and without a huge majority will simply deepen the divide.
Not including Remain definitively won't do that as those bleating for another vote will simply continue to do so.
With Leave only, which options do you include? May's deal has no support whatsoever, mainly because it has no sensible exit arrangement. No deal keeps being touted as disastrous for the economy - I'm personally not sure that stacks up with the scenarios/forecasts provided, but I don't think there's room for sensible, unemotive debate on it. The EU are telling us there is no other deal.
So what next?
Personally I don't think we will ever get a sensible FTA with the EU from the position we are in. This is tragic as it *should* have been straightforward bearing in mind where both counterparts are starting from. But hey ho. May's ineptitude now has us in an all but impossible position.
Its a very sad fact that leaving with no deal wouldn't be that much of an issue - IF we had an effective government able to pass legislation. The deal as is a car crash from both sides. The EU winning on every important factor, was a bad strategy, there's no way as a country we'd go for that. - they've upped probability of no deal with the only way (for UK) to deal with that is massive fiscal drop and tax incentives for business to locate here (5% corporation tax etc). They've invited super max Singapore right on their doorstep. If we could pass legislation....
Murph7355 said:
What question do you think could be asked in another referendum that would stop the rot?
Including Remain definitively won't do that. The genie of our feelings towards the EU is out of the bottle. Any lesser voter turnout and without a huge majority will simply deepen the divide.
Not including Remain definitively won't do that as those bleating for another vote will simply continue to do so.
With Leave only, which options do you include? May's deal has no support whatsoever, mainly because it has no sensible exit arrangement. No deal keeps being touted as disastrous for the economy - I'm personally not sure that stacks up with the scenarios/forecasts provided, but I don't think there's room for sensible, unemotive debate on it. The EU are telling us there is no other deal.
So what next?
Personally I don't think we will ever get a sensible FTA with the EU from the position we are in. This is tragic as it *should* have been straightforward bearing in mind where both counterparts are starting from. But hey ho. May's ineptitude now has us in an all but impossible position.
I think you have very deftly made the case for a second referendum. Including Remain definitively won't do that. The genie of our feelings towards the EU is out of the bottle. Any lesser voter turnout and without a huge majority will simply deepen the divide.
Not including Remain definitively won't do that as those bleating for another vote will simply continue to do so.
With Leave only, which options do you include? May's deal has no support whatsoever, mainly because it has no sensible exit arrangement. No deal keeps being touted as disastrous for the economy - I'm personally not sure that stacks up with the scenarios/forecasts provided, but I don't think there's room for sensible, unemotive debate on it. The EU are telling us there is no other deal.
So what next?
Personally I don't think we will ever get a sensible FTA with the EU from the position we are in. This is tragic as it *should* have been straightforward bearing in mind where both counterparts are starting from. But hey ho. May's ineptitude now has us in an all but impossible position.
There is a mandate to leave, but we have no idea how many people support doing so with 'no-deal'. If we continue without finding out, there will be millions of very angry people on both sides. Particularly if there are significant economic repercussions.
A second referendum will antagonise leave voters who are happy with no deal, but it is the only way to bring everyone together to make a final informed decision. I think the nation will accept the result and we will move on.
Of course many leave supporters will argue that the decision has already been made. I understand why they think that, but without a deal on the table I don't see any way to avoid a second referendum and ultimately, I think it is the best way to deal with the divisions Brexit has created.
Elysium said:
Of course many leave supporters will argue that the decision has already been made. I understand why they think that, but without a deal on the table I don't see any way to avoid a second referendum and ultimately, I think it is the best way to deal with the divisions Brexit has created.
If there were another referendum and the result the same, how much further forward would we be?The population have been asked and have given an answer. To return again and ask the same question phrased slightly differently is an implicit request for a different answer. If you didn't like the answer from the first one, why ask it in the first place? What do you do if you get another answer you don't like? Keep asking? Then it's not a question at all, it's an instruction. If it's an instruction it's not a referendum.
It seems to me we are being led by a parliament who don't agree with the decision the public made. They are now trying very hard to make a Brexit sound impossible without catastrophe. Ignoring the questionable factualness of that statement, it's incredibly arrogant and disrespectful to ask the voters a question, then ignore their instruction because you don't like it.
If, and it is an if, a hard Brexit takes place and creates a catastrophe, so be it. That's what the electorate voted for, an exit. If it ends in tears, we can only blame ourselves. We weren't promised a clean exit or a special deal, we were simply promised an exit, however that happens.
To come back now and say, having created an utter dogs dinner of the exit, "erm, you obviously didn't know what you voting for last time, please change your mind", to escape from said dogs dinner, is lunacy.
If there's going to be a vote put to the people, make it a general election and let's hire a government with the full support of the electorate, voted in with whatever mandate for the EU that was in their manifesto, joined up with their vision for this country.
Murph7355 said:
You can't force people to vote.
What question do you think could be asked in another referendum that would stop the rot?
Including Remain definitively won't do that. The genie of our feelings towards the EU is out of the bottle. Any lesser voter turnout and without a huge majority will simply deepen the divide.
Not including Remain definitively won't do that as those bleating for another vote will simply continue to do so.
With Leave only, which options do you include? May's deal has no support whatsoever, mainly because it has no sensible exit arrangement. No deal keeps being touted as disastrous for the economy - I'm personally not sure that stacks up with the scenarios/forecasts provided, but I don't think there's room for sensible, unemotive debate on it. The EU are telling us there is no other deal.
So what next?
Personally I don't think we will ever get a sensible FTA with the EU from the position we are in. This is tragic as it *should* have been straightforward bearing in mind where both counterparts are starting from. But hey ho. May's ineptitude now has us in an all but impossible position.
Remain needs to be an option on the referendum. What question do you think could be asked in another referendum that would stop the rot?
Including Remain definitively won't do that. The genie of our feelings towards the EU is out of the bottle. Any lesser voter turnout and without a huge majority will simply deepen the divide.
Not including Remain definitively won't do that as those bleating for another vote will simply continue to do so.
With Leave only, which options do you include? May's deal has no support whatsoever, mainly because it has no sensible exit arrangement. No deal keeps being touted as disastrous for the economy - I'm personally not sure that stacks up with the scenarios/forecasts provided, but I don't think there's room for sensible, unemotive debate on it. The EU are telling us there is no other deal.
So what next?
Personally I don't think we will ever get a sensible FTA with the EU from the position we are in. This is tragic as it *should* have been straightforward bearing in mind where both counterparts are starting from. But hey ho. May's ineptitude now has us in an all but impossible position.
Whenever its mentioned that Leaver voters were lied to; the common response is "Leave voters knew what they were voting for".
Which is not what was meant.
Everyone who voted Leave, or Remain, did so for their own reasons. The Leave campaigns promised much, but had no plan to deliver it. This was a deliberate strategy by them; because between them they could not come up with a coherent strategy on what they would do if they won. This lack of cohesion in what Brexit actually should be has played out over the last couple of years; and will claim yet another Tory Prime Minister as some kind of sacrificial offering.
Leave promised Sovereignty; they promised Control of Borders, they promised single market access, customs union, free trade deals, the promised a hard brexit, soft brexit. They promised that Britain could have its cake and eat it.
So what do we have;
We have hard brexiters; who believe we'd be better off out of the EU; cut all ties and start again. A minority of leave voters; presumably driven primarily by sovereignty and border concerns. They don't seem to keen on Theresa's deal, because it sacrifices so much sovereignty, possibly indefinitely.
We have the soft brexiters who back the deal, those who want out of the EU but want to minimise the economic damage.
You've got the soft brexiters who don't back the deal, who think we should remain part of single market and customs union.
So out of these, how many would rather remain than leave with Theresa's deal or go full hard brexit?
Add them to the remainers; the 48% who don't want to leave, and you may just end up with a majority of people who don't want to leave the EU now the cold hard facts of what Brexit actually will mean.
People voted for Brexit for their own reasons; and they can now see if Theresa's deal or no deal will actually deliver what they voted for. If it doesn't, they should have the option to change their mind and say "actually I'd prefer to remain; the Brexit I wanted won't be delivered"
janesmith1950 said:
Elysium said:
Of course many leave supporters will argue that the decision has already been made. I understand why they think that, but without a deal on the table I don't see any way to avoid a second referendum and ultimately, I think it is the best way to deal with the divisions Brexit has created.
If there were another referendum and the result the same, how much further forward would we be?janesmith1950 said:
The population have been asked and have given an answer. To return again and ask the same question phrased slightly differently is an implicit request for a different answer. If you didn't like the answer from the first one, why ask it in the first place? What do you do if you get another answer you don't like? Keep asking? Then it's not a question at all, it's an instruction. If it's an instruction it's not a referendum.
It seems to me we are being led by a parliament who don't agree with the decision the public made. They are now trying very hard to make a Brexit sound impossible without catastrophe. Ignoring the questionable factualness of that statement, it's incredibly arrogant and disrespectful to ask the voters a question, then ignore their instruction because you don't like it.
If, and it is an if, a hard Brexit takes place and creates a catastrophe, so be it. That's what the electorate voted for, an exit. If it ends in tears, we can only blame ourselves. We weren't promised a clean exit or a special deal, we were simply promised an exit, however that happens.
To come back now and say, having created an utter dogs dinner of the exit, "erm, you obviously didn't know what you voting for last time, please change your mind", to escape from said dogs dinner, is lunacy.
If there's going to be a vote put to the people, make it a general election and let's hire a government with the full support of the electorate, voted in with whatever mandate for the EU that was in their manifesto, joined up with their vision for this country.
As I said, some leave supporters will argue that the decision has been made. Clinging to that position will do us no good.It seems to me we are being led by a parliament who don't agree with the decision the public made. They are now trying very hard to make a Brexit sound impossible without catastrophe. Ignoring the questionable factualness of that statement, it's incredibly arrogant and disrespectful to ask the voters a question, then ignore their instruction because you don't like it.
If, and it is an if, a hard Brexit takes place and creates a catastrophe, so be it. That's what the electorate voted for, an exit. If it ends in tears, we can only blame ourselves. We weren't promised a clean exit or a special deal, we were simply promised an exit, however that happens.
To come back now and say, having created an utter dogs dinner of the exit, "erm, you obviously didn't know what you voting for last time, please change your mind", to escape from said dogs dinner, is lunacy.
If there's going to be a vote put to the people, make it a general election and let's hire a government with the full support of the electorate, voted in with whatever mandate for the EU that was in their manifesto, joined up with their vision for this country.
As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
Lotobear said:
How about a referendum on whether to have another referendum?
Depending on the answer we could then proceed to a referendum on the question or questions
And thats the problemDepending on the answer we could then proceed to a referendum on the question or questions
So far whoever has suggested a second referendum has given different reasons about what its for and what it would say
There's also this strange thing that the outcome of a vote is somehow in porportion to the result
We've just had 200 vs 117 for the PM yet instead of everyone swinging in behind her, theyre continuing as they are.
No the outcome of the first referendum was exit
Thats happening on March 29th
Whatever else needs to be done alongside the exit to smooth the process is up to the politicians.
There was no vote on what they should so , just lots of ideas
We need them to pick whats best and 'just get on with it'
Elysium said:
As I said, some leave supporters will argue that the decision has been made. Clinging to that position will do us no good.
As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
You were presumably happy with 40 years of hacking and slashing without a single measurement, the very first measurement taken in 40 years gave the wrong answer and __now__ you're concerned that there's not enough measuring going on? As the old phrase goes - 'measure twice cut once'. It's not complicated.
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