How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
Outf
kingrageous. You must be a troll...…...nobody with your posting history on the Brexit threads could possibly post that in good faith. 
mattmurdock said:
Vanden Saab said:
Jimboka said:
Vanden Saab said:
Government website has just confirmed the order-order news... CTC to be continued regardless of how we leave...
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-remain-in...
Poor old remainers it is just loss after loss these days...
Do you believe that? Nobody else does!https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-remain-in...
Poor old remainers it is just loss after loss these days...
The tide turned long ago as you know, Brexit RIP
It simply means you only need to fill in one set of customs forms, and pay one set of tariffs, if you are importing and exporting via multiple countries in the CTC.
If we hadn't signed up and you wanted to export something to Turkey via the EU, you would have to fill in EU and Turkish customs forms and pay tariffs when you crossed into the EU customs border and again when you crossed the Turkish border.
There are a number of non EU countries in the CTC, and it won't do anything about the backstop.
It’s not just the agreement that matters but the technology that underpins it. The New Computerised Transit system (NCTS) is only open to members of the Convention. For both exporters and authorities, it increases the efficiency and security of the procedure.
Article 55 of the Convention also provides for transit simplifications. The simplifications make it possible for a trader to receive goods at an authorised place without the need to present the goods at the port. However the trader would need to be approved as an “authorised consignee” which only applies if they regularly receive goods placed under the procedure and also have the appropriate premises approved as a “Temporary Storage facility.” There are host of strict conditions attached to qualify and the approvals process can take many months."
Lots more at uktradeforum.net/2018/04/24/securing-european-transit-for-uk-trade-post-brexit/
Seems like there are ways to have customs checks etc done remotely ie not at a border post, and imports and exports can be tracked and processes electronically without any pesky rubber stamps and reams of paper. .
Who'd a thunk it.
Cheers,
Tony
Vanden Saab said:
Government website has just confirmed the order-order news... CTC to be continued regardless of how we leave...
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-remain-in...
so is it better that a deal like thta just goes through without the HoC having time to argue about it?https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-remain-in...
Does it count as a deal as far as the 'no deal' people are concerned
Vanden Saab said:
Jimboka said:
Vanden Saab said:
Government website has just confirmed the order-order news... CTC to be continued regardless of how we leave...
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-remain-in...
Poor old remainers it is just loss after loss these days...
Do you believe that? Nobody else does!https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-remain-in...
Poor old remainers it is just loss after loss these days...
The tide turned long ago as you know, Brexit RIP
The CTC is pretty important, but not a complete game changer. Essentially it will allow us to ship goods through a signatory country of the CTC without having to clear the goods for import into that country, subject to certain conditions.
An easy example to look at is if you are an Irish company that wants to ship to France, trucking across the UK. Post Brexit and without the transit convention there would have been a requirement to clear the goods for import into the UK before re-exporting them a few hours later to get them out of the UK and into France. Very annoying, possibly quite expensive in terms of having to lodge guarantees etc.
Under CTC the only admin is that a barcode on the paperwork gets scanned a couple of times just to flag the goods as they pass the various borders. The goods don't really get exported from the EU in the legal sense so they don't have to be reimported, making it much more straightforward when they arrive in France.
For the UK it's a little bit less critical, but still very useful - the big thing is that if you have a customer in Germany you'll be able to (provided your customer has it set up) clear customs in Germany rather than France, which will be a lot neater for their VAT and compliance purposes.
If you're shipping further afield (Russia, most likely) you'll also be able to avoid having to clear goods into the EU before re-exporting them when they leave again.
It's a bit of a faff, frankly, but a lot less of a faff than doing full imports and exports everywhere.
Far more information than anyone requires is available here:
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/cus...
It won't help at the Irish border at all because the transit system facilitates movements across borders, but doesn't eliminate them.
saaby93 said:
so is it better that a deal like thta just goes through without the HoC having time to argue about it?
Does it count as a deal as far as the 'no deal' people are concerned
No, this is one of the parts of "facilitated no deal" that the left leaning press has been saying isn't possible.Does it count as a deal as far as the 'no deal' people are concerned
Generally speaking the government doesn't have to involve the HoC in treaties unless it represents a big change to the UK constitution - that was made clear in Gina Miller's judgement about Article 50.
In this case the treaty represents the preservation of existing law (which we have as part of the EU) and doesn't change anything substantive, so there's no need to bring it to the Commons.
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/docu...
davepoth said:
saaby93 said:
so is it better that a deal like thta just goes through without the HoC having time to argue about it?
Does it count as a deal as far as the 'no deal' people are concerned
No, this is one of the parts of "facilitated no deal" that the left leaning press has been saying isn't possible.Does it count as a deal as far as the 'no deal' people are concerned
Generally speaking the government doesn't have to involve the HoC in treaties unless it represents a big change to the UK constitution - that was made clear in Gina Miller's judgement about Article 50.
In this case the treaty represents the preservation of existing law (which we have as part of the EU) and doesn't change anything substantive, so there's no need to bring it to the Commons.
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/docu...
If next we have a similar agreement about customs arrangements will that be considered as doesnt change anything substantive?
Between them that should cover off the Ireland border issue
That only leaves MPs to agree to exit the EU and job done
davepoth said:
Building me up a bit there then.
The CTC is pretty important, but not a complete game changer. Essentially it will allow us to ship goods through a signatory country of the CTC without having to clear the goods for import into that country, subject to certain conditions.
An easy example to look at is if you are an Irish company that wants to ship to France, trucking across the UK. Post Brexit and without the transit convention there would have been a requirement to clear the goods for import into the UK before re-exporting them a few hours later to get them out of the UK and into France. Very annoying, possibly quite expensive in terms of having to lodge guarantees etc.
Under CTC the only admin is that a barcode on the paperwork gets scanned a couple of times just to flag the goods as they pass the various borders. The goods don't really get exported from the EU in the legal sense so they don't have to be reimported, making it much more straightforward when they arrive in France.
For the UK it's a little bit less critical, but still very useful - the big thing is that if you have a customer in Germany you'll be able to (provided your customer has it set up) clear customs in Germany rather than France, which will be a lot neater for their VAT and compliance purposes.
If you're shipping further afield (Russia, most likely) you'll also be able to avoid having to clear goods into the EU before re-exporting them when they leave again.
It's a bit of a faff, frankly, but a lot less of a faff than doing full imports and exports everywhere.
Far more information than anyone requires is available here:
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/cus...
It won't help at the Irish border at all because the transit system facilitates movements across borders, but doesn't eliminate them.
i'm pretty sure vanden saab wasn't the only looking forward to reading your take on it.you and a few others with knowledge around the specifics of import/export mechanisms have provided much appreciated info on this and other brexit related threads.The CTC is pretty important, but not a complete game changer. Essentially it will allow us to ship goods through a signatory country of the CTC without having to clear the goods for import into that country, subject to certain conditions.
An easy example to look at is if you are an Irish company that wants to ship to France, trucking across the UK. Post Brexit and without the transit convention there would have been a requirement to clear the goods for import into the UK before re-exporting them a few hours later to get them out of the UK and into France. Very annoying, possibly quite expensive in terms of having to lodge guarantees etc.
Under CTC the only admin is that a barcode on the paperwork gets scanned a couple of times just to flag the goods as they pass the various borders. The goods don't really get exported from the EU in the legal sense so they don't have to be reimported, making it much more straightforward when they arrive in France.
For the UK it's a little bit less critical, but still very useful - the big thing is that if you have a customer in Germany you'll be able to (provided your customer has it set up) clear customs in Germany rather than France, which will be a lot neater for their VAT and compliance purposes.
If you're shipping further afield (Russia, most likely) you'll also be able to avoid having to clear goods into the EU before re-exporting them when they leave again.
It's a bit of a faff, frankly, but a lot less of a faff than doing full imports and exports everywhere.
Far more information than anyone requires is available here:
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/cus...
It won't help at the Irish border at all because the transit system facilitates movements across borders, but doesn't eliminate them.
But by using freight depots and Temporary Storage Facilities there would not be a need for customs posts with barriers/ guys with rubber stamps etc thus negating the need for the " Hard Border".
The border will still exist but all cross border trade/ paperwork/ checks could be done in customer's premises, freight yards and the like as long as they are trusted and approved.
Much like cross border freight at present that is subject to different duties on NI and Eire. Of course theres lots of smuggling going on at present so whats new.
Cheers,
Tony
The border will still exist but all cross border trade/ paperwork/ checks could be done in customer's premises, freight yards and the like as long as they are trusted and approved.
Much like cross border freight at present that is subject to different duties on NI and Eire. Of course theres lots of smuggling going on at present so whats new.
Cheers,
Tony
Tony427 said:
But by using freight depots and Temporary Storage Facilities there would not be a need for customs posts with barriers/ guys with rubber stamps etc thus negating the need for the " Hard Border".
The border will still exist but all cross border trade/ paperwork/ checks could be done in customer's premises, freight yards and the like as long as they are trusted and approved.
Much like cross border freight at present that is subject to different duties on NI and Eire. Of course theres lots of smuggling going on at present so whats new.
Cheers,
Tony
Allowing clearance to take place at a trader's warehouse rather than the border is only for authorised traders, so this doesn't really change all that much in terms of the border - but it is another example of how the EU can eliminate border infrastructure when it wants to. The border will still exist but all cross border trade/ paperwork/ checks could be done in customer's premises, freight yards and the like as long as they are trusted and approved.
Much like cross border freight at present that is subject to different duties on NI and Eire. Of course theres lots of smuggling going on at present so whats new.
Cheers,
Tony
davepoth said:
Allowing clearance to take place at a trader's warehouse rather than the border is only for authorised traders, so this doesn't really change all that much in terms of the border - but it is another example of how the EU can eliminate border infrastructure when it wants to.
Could for example the Mini factory become an authorised trader? Therefore avoiding the much discussed Crankshaft issue?davepoth said:
It won't help at the Irish border at all because the transit system facilitates movements across borders, but doesn't eliminate them.
My impression was that it helps in as much as the alternative plan May had come up with was the mad 'pay full tariffs for everything entering the UK and then claim them back' idea. That whole expensive and complicated mess was introduced just to solve the problem of the Irish border - at the expense of the rest of the country. The CTC deal seems to push the problem back to being just the Irish border itself, which takes the wind out of the sails of those who were using the tail to wag the dog?Not sure... this is where I'm more than happy to have someone explain it in simple words and crayons
Vanden Saab said:
Could for example the Mini factory become an authorised trader? Therefore avoiding the much discussed Crankshaft issue?
Short answer - yesLong answer - I'd be amazed if they weren't already.
HMRC have already said that their priorities are
1. Security
2. Supply chain flow
3. Duty collection
In essence, the government have already decided that keeping the trucks moving will bring in more money than collecting the duty. VAT is already going to be done away from the borders after brexit, regardless of the deal.
Any authorised company will goes on a whitelist and be subject to reduced security inspections, and the nature of machine parts means that there aren't really any regulatory checks to go through at the border.
Unless MINI's parts get stuck in a traffic jam to get onto the M20 they won't get held up inbound into the UK. The really big question is what happens when those trucks are trying to get into and out of the EU - and for that we should have more of an answer on Wednesday when the EU is releasing more of its no-deal planning.
jonnyb said:
And how would that work for FOM?
By doing what you say we essentially sign up to FOM. Remember, no passport checks between UK and Northen Ireland.
Also, goods from the EU coming into the UK? The border works both ways.
Its within the CTA rules for UK to target anyone for passport check and check their right to be in any area of the CTA..By doing what you say we essentially sign up to FOM. Remember, no passport checks between UK and Northen Ireland.
Also, goods from the EU coming into the UK? The border works both ways.
You might find the following useful. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Seems to me that all the fannying about in Westminster and talk of a second referendum is completely missing the real problem with the Brexit process, which is simply that having an open border in Northern Ireland is not compatible with leaving the EU and having a closed border is not compatible with the Good Friday Agreement.
Doesn't matter who goes into the negotiations, what they ask for or what form of Brexit "the people" want, the problem is fundamentally unsolvable in a way that is acceptable to everyone.
Assuming that's right, my mind turned to how to solve the unsolveable. I wonder if anyone can tell me if the following is not possible (even if it is highly unattractive)?
I was wondering if the UK could simply push the problem onto the EU, as it is after all a border between the UK and the EU. To do this, we would decide unilaterally to leave the EU without a deal and state that we will keep an open border between the Northern Ireland and the ROI.
It will then fall to the ROI to decide whether they want to install border controls between NI and RoI and no doubt the EU will insist that border controls are installed.
This effectively shifts any fallout from installing the border control onto RoI and the EU, with the latter no doubt taking the brunt of the blame. It may even put pressure on RoI to consider leaving the EU.
So, is the above even remotely possible? Do you think even the threat of following that route may put pressure on the EU to soften their side of the divorce deal?
Would be interested to have an informed discussion, as I'm really struggling to see anyway we can achieve any kind of Brexit with the NI/RoI question unresolved.
Doesn't matter who goes into the negotiations, what they ask for or what form of Brexit "the people" want, the problem is fundamentally unsolvable in a way that is acceptable to everyone.
Assuming that's right, my mind turned to how to solve the unsolveable. I wonder if anyone can tell me if the following is not possible (even if it is highly unattractive)?
I was wondering if the UK could simply push the problem onto the EU, as it is after all a border between the UK and the EU. To do this, we would decide unilaterally to leave the EU without a deal and state that we will keep an open border between the Northern Ireland and the ROI.
It will then fall to the ROI to decide whether they want to install border controls between NI and RoI and no doubt the EU will insist that border controls are installed.
This effectively shifts any fallout from installing the border control onto RoI and the EU, with the latter no doubt taking the brunt of the blame. It may even put pressure on RoI to consider leaving the EU.
So, is the above even remotely possible? Do you think even the threat of following that route may put pressure on the EU to soften their side of the divorce deal?
Would be interested to have an informed discussion, as I'm really struggling to see anyway we can achieve any kind of Brexit with the NI/RoI question unresolved.
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