Train passenger killed by tree branch

Train passenger killed by tree branch

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Discussion

Stussy

728 posts

14 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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They would unlock automatically, just like most cars doors do

Neonblau

748 posts

83 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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eldar said:
I’m not convinced locking people in a train is an entirely good idea. Might have unexpected consequences in a fire or accident.
Aside from old slam door stock in Scotland and Wales and some unrefitted HSTs you're pretty much locked in every train in the country.

matchmaker

6,822 posts

150 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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Neonblau said:
eldar said:
I’m not convinced locking people in a train is an entirely good idea. Might have unexpected consequences in a fire or accident.
Aside from old slam door stock in Scotland and Wales and some unrefitted HSTs you're pretty much locked in every train in the country.
I'm pretty sure that all HST coaches with slam doors have central door locking.

yellowjack

12,630 posts

116 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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eldar said:
Gary29 said:
I'm on the sympathetic side on this one, the amount of moronic things I've done whilst drunk.....it's a miracle I'm still here frankly, and I'm sure lots of other PH'ers are similar. She was just very unlucky.

Personally I think signage is a waste of time, if you are drunk and have decided you want to put your head out of a window, any sign isn't going to stop you. They should just interlock the doors/windows so it's not possible to get your head out whilst the train is moving. It is common sense not to do this, but on public transport where you can expect a wide range of intelligence, I think you have a duty to prevent anyone being able to do this.
I’m not convinced locking people in a train is an entirely good idea. Might have unexpected consequences in a fire or accident.
Old "slam door" rolling stock was a safety nightmare. You had a FAR higher likelihood of witnessing an accident with a door than you ever will have of being burned to a cinder in a "locked" train. Doors opened while the train was still moving hitting passengers waiting on platforms. Clever people commuting in suits to important jobs misjudging the speed of the train and stepping off onto the platform and face-planting. idiots ignoring the instruction "Do Not attempt To Board A Moving train" and being dragged between platform and train. Unsuspecting punters catching clothing or bag straps on the protruding door handles and being dragged away as the train pulled away. Confused people (drunk, sleepy, dementia sufferers, whatever...) opening doors and stepping out while the train was running at speed. That's without reference to the type of accident that started this thread. All now prevented by electronic interlocking sliding doors with entirely smooth carriage bodies with nothing to get caught up on and dragged along.

Besides which, if you've ever read the safety information in the modern carriages, as you are requested to do upon boarding, then you'd know that in the event of a fire there are emergency methods for mechanically opening electronic doors or breaking windows to make an escape.

p4cks

4,129 posts

149 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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Unfortunate indeed, but I can't help but apportion all responsibility at the poor victim who in this case paid the ultimate price.

How long have these windows been on trains and there not been an incident? Seems pretty harsh to say that the stickers were inadequate and dare I say it the victim would probably have stuck her head out anyway if the stickers were larger/a different colour.

I'm also guessing when these windows were invented and first applied on a train carriage, there was no sticker whatsoever and very few incidents like this.


yellowjack

12,630 posts

116 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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rscott said:
turbomoped said:
why do trains have windows that open more than a few inches anyway?
Just the usual flippin lazy people running anything related to safety. Did they go to school with the tower block fire safety boys?
So passengers can open the doors - some carriages only have external door handles.
Slam door stock predates safety technology such as electronic interlocking doors/windows. Some of the later Slam-door units did, toward the end of their working life, get retro-fitted with a form of guard-operated "central locking" to prevent passengers from opening the doors before the train had stopped. Heritage lines do still run plenty of slam-door stock, and they still have "Do Not Lean out Of The Window" stickers in them. But people who clearly know better will happily stick their head out of the carriage window to get a glimpse of the steam loco hauling their service. In most cases it's pretty low-risk, as heritage lines are less likely to have two tracks running. But it only takes the train you are on to pass some rolling stock being stored on another track to take your head off.

So those "flippin lazy people" who designed the slam-door stock did what was then considered best practice in line with available technology and it's limits of reliability. Now, though, the very idea of slam-door (or opening window) rolling stock would get laughed out of town well before it made it onto a drawing board. Like many who remember travelling on scheduled commercial services on slam-door trains, I miss the sounds associated with all those doors opening and shutting out of sync with one-another, and the guard's whistle, etc. Many so crave reliving that experience that they travel on preservation railways to experience it once more, but no sane person would wish them back into daily scheduled service.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slam-door_train

ChocolateFrog

7,194 posts

123 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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As much as I'm usually quick to say stupid girl or whatever, she didn't have to stick her head out very far to get whacked.

A cursory trackside inspection would have picked that branch up pretty quickly and it could have been chopped down in a matter of seconds.

ChocolateFrog

7,194 posts

123 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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Short Grain said:
Gecko1978 said:
Darwin in action I am afraid

but old slam door trains in 2019 wow I did not know there were any left
Common Sense is sadly lacking in the young nowadays. Also, sure I read that the section of track hadn't been trimmed back since 2009. One pic showed the actual tree that she hit, supposedly.

Very sad but a lesson to others i.e. Don't stick your head, or any part of you you want to keep, out of a moving vehicle. Ever!!

On Your Head Be It!! (yes, I know someone used that earlier, sorry)

getmecoat
No more lacking than in yours or anyone else's generation I'd say. I've stuck my head out of train window loads of times as a kid, we looked where we were going but still.

yellowjack

12,630 posts

116 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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In 2016 a man was killed sticking his head out of the window of a Govia Thameslink Gatwick Express service. GTR was fined after the incident, and a year later the Class 442 'Plastic pig' trains were withdrawn by GTR. The investigation found that the warning signs telling passengers not to stick their heads out were cluttered among many other warning stickers around the door... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49016151

South Western Railways are (or were, with many issues preventing their re-introduction) in the process of spending millions on updating those Class 442 trains to bring them back into service. Let's hope that those window issues have been solved, eh?

p4cks

4,129 posts

149 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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yellowjack said:
Let's hope that those window issues have been solved, eh?
The windows work perfectly though, it seems the issue is user error

DoubleD

10,516 posts

58 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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p4cks said:
yellowjack said:
Let's hope that those window issues have been solved, eh?
The windows work perfectly though, it seems the issue is user error
Yep. You shouldnt need a sticker to tell you things like this.

yellowjack

12,630 posts

116 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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DoubleD said:
p4cks said:
yellowjack said:
Let's hope that those window issues have been solved, eh?
The windows work perfectly though, it seems the issue is user error
Yep. You shouldnt need a sticker to tell you things like this.
I strongly disagree. I, and people my age, grew up with drop-light windows and passenger-operated slam-doors. So we ought to know better, sticker or no sticker. But young people may not have encountered this type of door before. Additionally, younger folk have grown up in a world where almost everything has a "Danger" sticker on it. So if there isn't a sticker, or it is hidden in a confusing jumble of other advice/warning stickers, they might well fail to recognise the danger...


You could easily argue that the "victim" on the GTR service, Simon Brown, REALLY ought to have known better, though. He worked in the rail industry for Hitachi Rail Europe, and had been a volunteer on the Bluebell Steam Railway from the age of 9, so he'd certainly have been familiar with the concept of dropping the window to access an exterior door handle. Post-incident, bars were fitted to GTR trains windows to prevent them opening, and within a short time they were withdrawn. The judge in the case thought it was a failing on the part of the company, and fined GTR £1million. Basically, if a safety system isn't fool-proof, or requires specific training to operate it safely, then it isn't passenger-proof and shouldn't be in use on a modern railway.

DoubleD

10,516 posts

58 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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yellowjack said:
DoubleD said:
p4cks said:
yellowjack said:
Let's hope that those window issues have been solved, eh?
The windows work perfectly though, it seems the issue is user error
Yep. You shouldnt need a sticker to tell you things like this.
I strongly disagree. I, and people my age, grew up with drop-light windows and passenger-operated slam-doors. So we ought to know better, sticker or no sticker. But young people may not have encountered this type of door before. Additionally, younger folk have grown up in a world where almost everything has a "Danger" sticker on it. So if there isn't a sticker, or it is hidden in a confusing jumble of other advice/warning stickers, they might well fail to recognise the danger...


You could easily argue that the "victim" on the GTR service, Simon Brown, REALLY ought to have known better, though. He worked in the rail industry for Hitachi Rail Europe, and had been a volunteer on the Bluebell Steam Railway from the age of 9, so he'd certainly have been familiar with the concept of dropping the window to access an exterior door handle. Post-incident, bars were fitted to GTR trains windows to prevent them opening, and within a short time they were withdrawn. The judge in the case thought it was a failing on the part of the company, and fined GTR £1million. Basically, if a safety system isn't fool-proof, or requires specific training to operate it safely, then it isn't passenger-proof and shouldn't be in use on a modern railway.
Common sense should be enough.


There is no need to have stickers telling people things like this.

yellowjack

12,630 posts

116 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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DoubleD said:
Common sense should be enough.


There is no need to have stickers telling people things like this.
Well lets just remove all the triangular warning signs from our roads too. Bends, junctions, hump-back bridges, bridge heights, maximum width limits, etc. After all, common sense should be enough, and there is no need to have signs warning people about such dangers. Especially when they (should) have passed a driving test to be on the road, yet railway passengers just have to buy a ticket, and receive no training whatsoever...

rolleyes

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-power-...

ChocolateFrog

7,194 posts

123 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
yellowjack said:
DoubleD said:
Common sense should be enough.


There is no need to have stickers telling people things like this.
Well lets just remove all the triangular warning signs from our roads too. Bends, junctions, hump-back bridges, bridge heights, maximum width limits, etc. After all, common sense should be enough, and there is no need to have signs warning people about such dangers. Especially when they (should) have passed a driving test to be on the road, yet railway passengers just have to buy a ticket, and receive no training whatsoever...

rolleyes

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-power-...
Haven't they trialled this, including removing barriers between cars and pedestrians and it either made the roads safer or accidents didn't increase.

DoubleD

10,516 posts

58 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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yellowjack said:
DoubleD said:
Common sense should be enough.


There is no need to have stickers telling people things like this.
Well lets just remove all the triangular warning signs from our roads too. Bends, junctions, hump-back bridges, bridge heights, maximum width limits, etc. After all, common sense should be enough, and there is no need to have signs warning people about such dangers. Especially when they (should) have passed a driving test to be on the road, yet railway passengers just have to buy a ticket, and receive no training whatsoever...

rolleyes

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-power-...
You don't need training to know that sticking your head out of a moving train is a bad idea. Its just common sense.

We don't need stickers everywhere warning us about obvious stuff.



so called

7,290 posts

159 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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yellowjack said:
Slam door stock predates safety technology such as electronic interlocking doors/windows. Some of the later Slam-door units did, toward the end of their working life, get retro-fitted with a form of guard-operated "central locking" to prevent passengers from opening the doors before the train had stopped.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slam-door_train
I was part of the team who design the retrofit door lock systems back around 1993/94.
We had to cover Mk2 and Mk3 Intercity coaching stock. Some old MK1 Guards Wagons had to have the door controls installed as well.
The HST MK 4'5 behind the Class 91 Loco's on East Coast Main Line already had locking doors.

The reason for the funding was because of the longer talked about ability of MK3 coach doors being able to open unaided at high speed.

Sorry, I'll shut up now.

dudleybloke

15,360 posts

136 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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There were approx 1,700,000,000 train journeys in 2014-15.
A fair few of these will be inebriated folk.
If the signage was that defective I would expect a LOT more deaths out of so many potential victims.


mac96

1,610 posts

93 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
ChocolateFrog said:
yellowjack said:
DoubleD said:
Common sense should be enough.


There is no need to have stickers telling people things like this.
Well lets just remove all the triangular warning signs from our roads too. Bends, junctions, hump-back bridges, bridge heights, maximum width limits, etc. After all, common sense should be enough, and there is no need to have signs warning people about such dangers. Especially when they (should) have passed a driving test to be on the road, yet railway passengers just have to buy a ticket, and receive no training whatsoever...

rolleyes

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-power-...
Haven't they trialled this, including removing barriers between cars and pedestrians and it either made the roads safer or accidents didn't increase.
Yes, but it is really hard to tell what is cause and effect; a couple of roads near me were 'depavemented' or whatever it's called. Accidents didn't increase, may have reduced, but the locals hated it. The safety improvement was phoney, What was actually happening was that pedestrians, lacking the safe space of a pavement with a kerb, were made uncomfortable but extra observant. And they stopped letting young children walk down the road alone, as cars could in theory drive right up to the garden walls.

I am sure some of these schemes were better implemented than this one, but it shows how careful you have to be when interpreting accident statistics, especially if someone is trying to justify an expensive safety redesign which has actually failed.

yellowjack

12,630 posts

116 months

Friday 18th October 2019
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dudleybloke said:
There were approx 1,700,000,000 train journeys in 2014-15.
A fair few of these will be inebriated folk.
If the signage was that defective I would expect a LOT more deaths out of so many potential victims.
What percentage of these journeys was undertaken on "outdated" slam-door stock though? It's no use pointing to 'x' number of journeys taken where there wasn't a "death by sticking one's head out of a train window" incident if the vast majority of those journeys was undertaken on modern, interlocked, guard operated sliding door stock where there are no opening windows to stick one's head out of...

...the more important question is how many deaths, injuries, or (mostly unreported) near misses there were on the small proportion of remaining drop-light stock. THAT is where the question of clarity of signage really comes to the fore, not on a Class 158 DMU or a Class 444 EMU, where such signage is superfluous anyway because there are no opening windows out of which one can stick one's head, and the doors won't open until the guard (or driver) permits them to open.