Train passenger killed by tree branch

[alangla]

yellowjack said:

What percentage of these journeys was undertaken on "outdated" slam-door stock though? It's no use pointing to 'x' number of journeys taken where there wasn't a "death by sticking one's head out of a train window" incident if the vast majority of those journeys was undertaken on modern, interlocked, guard operated sliding door stock where there are no opening windows to stick one's head out of...

...the more important question is how many deaths, injuries, or (mostly unreported) near misses there were on the small proportion of remaining drop-light stock. THAT is where the question of clarity of signage really comes to the fore, not on a Class 158 DMU or a Class 444 EMU, where such signage is superfluous anyway because there are no opening windows out of which one can stick one's head, and the doors won't open until the guard (or driver) permits them to open.

And, as an additional issue, the fact that drop-light HST stock is being introduced into areas where everything has been sliding door for years, e.g. Glasgow/Edinburgh - Aberdeen/Inverness (yes, I know there's a couple of LNER trains a day from Edinburgh), Aberdeen to Inverness and some of the secondary Great Western routes. The conversion programme for HSTs to power doors running well behind isn't helping matters either.
Basically risk is being introduced onto routes where previously there was none.

[yellowjack]

alangla said:

yellowjack said:

What percentage of these journeys was undertaken on "outdated" slam-door stock though? It's no use pointing to 'x' number of journeys taken where there wasn't a "death by sticking one's head out of a train window" incident if the vast majority of those journeys was undertaken on modern, interlocked, guard operated sliding door stock where there are no opening windows to stick one's head out of...

...the more important question is how many deaths, injuries, or (mostly unreported) near misses there were on the small proportion of remaining drop-light stock. THAT is where the question of clarity of signage really comes to the fore, not on a Class 158 DMU or a Class 444 EMU, where such signage is superfluous anyway because there are no opening windows out of which one can stick one's head, and the doors won't open until the guard (or driver) permits them to open.

And, as an additional issue, the fact that drop-light HST stock is being introduced into areas where everything has been sliding door for years, e.g. Glasgow/Edinburgh - Aberdeen/Inverness (yes, I know there's a couple of LNER trains a day from Edinburgh), Aberdeen to Inverness and some of the secondary Great Western routes. The conversion programme for HSTs to power doors running well behind isn't helping matters either.
Basically risk is being introduced onto routes where previously there was none.

Yes, but "stickers are for thickos" though. "Common sense" should be enough, especially if you're a school kid who has grown up with electrically operated sliding doors on trains, doesn't know what a "drop light window" is, and has never encountered a train door that doesn't shut itself...

[itcaptainslow]

eldar said:

Gary29 said:

I'm on the sympathetic side on this one, the amount of moronic things I've done whilst drunk.....it's a miracle I'm still here frankly, and I'm sure lots of other PH'ers are similar. She was just very unlucky.

Personally I think signage is a waste of time, if you are drunk and have decided you want to put your head out of a window, any sign isn't going to stop you. They should just interlock the doors/windows so it's not possible to get your head out whilst the train is moving. It is common sense not to do this, but on public transport where you can expect a wide range of intelligence, I think you have a duty to prevent anyone being able to do this.

I’m not convinced locking people in a train is an entirely good idea. Might have unexpected consequences in a fire or accident.

The Rule Book specifically prohibits situations of a particular coach/entire train remaining in service if a combination of/number of passenger body side doors are locked out of use and cannot be opened, so that’s already catered for.

Every door has an emergency egress function which on more modern stock gives an automatic emergency brake application if operated, and operating it will override the central locking/interlocking function, if not immediately but after a number of seconds.

[anonymous-user]

Digga said:

I have heard of similar tails on trans, but never seen it first hand.

No that's some pretty specialist stuff.

[DoubleD]

yellowjack said:

Yes, but "stickers are for thickos" though. "Common sense" should be enough, especially if you're a school kid who has grown up with electrically operated sliding doors on trains, doesn't know what a "drop light window" is, and has never encountered a train door that doesn't shut itself...

Yeah I guess some kids have never seen doors that you need to shut yourself, especially ones with windows in them that open and close. Poor things must be so confused.

[yellowjack]

DoubleD said:

yellowjack said:

Yes, but "stickers are for thickos" though. "Common sense" should be enough, especially if you're a school kid who has grown up with electrically operated sliding doors on trains, doesn't know what a "drop light window" is, and has never encountered a train door that doesn't shut itself...

Yeah I guess some kids have never seen doors that you need to shut yourself, especially ones with windows in them that open and close. Poor things must be so confused.

OK. You win. Of course, after a lifetime of automatic, powered train doors, it must be obvious even to the thickest person that you need to pull down the window to access the handle on "slam door" stock. So no need for an instructional sticker there either. In fact, after Brexit, we can do away with all those EU safety directives completely. Common sense/natural selection, etc.

Your stance is understandable, but you are basing the need for advisory/warning stickers on train doors on your own experience and understanding. Fine and dandy when slam door stock was commonplace, and you learned by other passengers' example. But young passengers these days, especially on routes with modern stock, may never have encountered a "traditional" hinged door on a train. They may have had no example to learn from, and therefore, without someone (or, I dunno? Maybe a sticker?) explaining it to them, they might struggle with the concept. Briefly, maybe, but long enough to literally lose their head. And so we have rules, and laws that require warning stickers to assist the unfamiliar passenger with the idiosyncrasies of operating "old fashioned" train doors. In the "olden days" there were station staff who ensured doors were properly closed, for instance. Now, many stations are unmanned. Who will close the door that was left open by a passenger unfamiliar with slam-door etiquette?

It's never as simple as saying "it's common sense". If I gave put you in a room with a fire and a choice of fire extinguishers, would you instinctively know which one to use? Common sense? One will put the fire out, one will make it worse, and one might make the air unbreathable and cause you to collapse. But surely it's "common sense" and we don't need instructional stickers on fire extinguishers? I know how to put out fires because I was trained to do it, but most people aren't. I understand the fire triangle, and think it's common sense, but lots don't. But hey? I'm just being silly, considering the needs of the "lowest common denominator" in society. We all have a different set of experiences and skills, and we need to consider the fact that some folk have a narrower set of both than other folk. Hence stickers explaining how to operate doors and other safety systems. That's my last contribution on the subject, though, as I don't want to hijack the thread and take it down a dead end...

[DoubleD]

yellowjack said:

DoubleD said:

yellowjack said:

Yes, but "stickers are for thickos" though. "Common sense" should be enough, especially if you're a school kid who has grown up with electrically operated sliding doors on trains, doesn't know what a "drop light window" is, and has never encountered a train door that doesn't shut itself...

Yeah I guess some kids have never seen doors that you need to shut yourself, especially ones with windows in them that open and close. Poor things must be so confused.

OK. You win. Of course, after a lifetime of automatic, powered train doors, it must be obvious even to the thickest person that you need to pull down the window to access the handle on "slam door" stock. So no need for an instructional sticker there either. In fact, after Brexit, we can do away with all those EU safety directives completely. Common sense/natural selection, etc.

Your stance is understandable, but you are basing the need for advisory/warning stickers on train doors on your own experience and understanding. Fine and dandy when slam door stock was commonplace, and you learned by other passengers' example. But young passengers these days, especially on routes with modern stock, may never have encountered a "traditional" hinged door on a train. They may have had no example to learn from, and therefore, without someone (or, I dunno? Maybe a sticker?) explaining it to them, they might struggle with the concept. Briefly, maybe, but long enough to literally lose their head. And so we have rules, and laws that require warning stickers to assist the unfamiliar passenger with the idiosyncrasies of operating "old fashioned" train doors. In the "olden days" there were station staff who ensured doors were properly closed, for instance. Now, many stations are unmanned. Who will close the door that was left open by a passenger unfamiliar with slam-door etiquette?

It's never as simple as saying "it's common sense". If I gave put you in a room with a fire and a choice of fire extinguishers, would you instinctively know which one to use? Common sense? One will put the fire out, one will make it worse, and one might make the air unbreathable and cause you to collapse. But surely it's "common sense" and we don't need instructional stickers on fire extinguishers? I know how to put out fires because I was trained to do it, but most people aren't. I understand the fire triangle, and think it's common sense, but lots don't. But hey? I'm just being silly, considering the needs of the "lowest common denominator" in society. We all have a different set of experiences and skills, and we need to consider the fact that some folk have a narrower set of both than other folk. Hence stickers explaining how to operate doors and other safety systems. That's my last contribution on the subject, though, as I don't want to hijack the thread and take it down a dead end...

I only read a few lines before I got bored, but you dont need a sticker telling you not to stick your head out of a fast moving train.