How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 8)

[B'stard Child]

wiggy001 said:

B'stard Child said:

I watched that video and my conclusion was I have every sympathy for the EU side - no fking wonder they keep saying they need the UK to make up it's mind what it wants

As a passionate brexiter, I have to agree.

My immediate question is: why was this not picked up by any mainstream media?

Might it have something to do with the fact they the majority of people in MSM don't actually want to leave either???

wiggy001 said:

I'd heard through this thread that we were offered an FTA early on, but was of the opinion that the other stuff (not being part of security arrangements etc) made it pointless. We now hear that those were up for discussion too.

So May has been deceitful... were the media complicit in this or just unaware?

I think they probably just ignored it as it didn't fit with their narrative - lets face it during the early stages they were still finding people to interview in the street who were old gammon faced and didn't want more brown people over here.

[Digga]

B'stard Child said:

wiggy001 said:

B'stard Child said:

I watched that video and my conclusion was I have every sympathy for the EU side - no fking wonder they keep saying they need the UK to make up it's mind what it wants

As a passionate brexiter, I have to agree.

My immediate question is: why was this not picked up by any mainstream media?

Might it have something to do with the fact they the majority of people in MSM don't actually want to leave either???

wiggy001 said:

I'd heard through this thread that we were offered an FTA early on, but was of the opinion that the other stuff (not being part of security arrangements etc) made it pointless. We now hear that those were up for discussion too.

So May has been deceitful... were the media complicit in this or just unaware?

I think they probably just ignored it as it didn't fit with their narrative - lets face it during the early stages they were still finding people to interview in the street who were old gammon faced and didn't want more brown people over here.

Agreed. And no wonder the EU thought HMG were nuts when, in fact, they were already offered a sensible deal that they elected to ignore.

[king arthur]

Digga said:

Given the video was linked to by another poster near to the end of the last volume, it's worth repeating hereing, not least because it provides a huge amount of insight into the process the government went through and the reasons why they themselves (as agents ideologically opposed to the change Brexit represented) fudged the deal:

https://youtu.be/jVmSxbQwwlk

I did watch the short version of the video and it's astonishing. My point is though that May's intention may well have been for a BRINO but it has backfired on her and she has nowhere to go now. She can't prevent a no deal exit if there isn't a big enough concession from the EU and I'm not sure there will be.

[Tuna]

Greg66 said:

I've just tried to watch it, and after five minutes was ready to throw something at my screen.

First question: two minutes to deliver, actually two questions, one of which asked for how Baker "felt" at the time.

Answer: whatever it was, it didn't answer the question.

Second question: triple barrelled, focussing on whether Baker felt public confidence had been undermined. IOW: "what's your opinion on something about which I am not going to bother asking whether you have a factual basis to form an opinion".

In all seriousness, Select Committee Q&As more often than not consist of a competition between the questioner and the witness to get their respective opinions across.

ETA: unless the questioner is at least neutral (and Bill Cash is not a neutral questioner of Steve Baker) and there is material - whether it be documents written at the time, or evidence given by other people directly involved at the time - that can be put to the person questioned to test their answers, a Q&A session amounts to not much more than an exercise in letting the person who is being questioned say whatever they want to say with impunity. Some of it may be true, some might be half true, some of it may be false. How does one tell absent some properly critical and testing questions by reference to material other than what the questionee says?

Translation: "lalala, I'm not listening".

You are of course right that it's not exactly a court of law. However, the allegations are pretty serious, and the course of events Baker describes are very much in line with what was witnessed. If this had been available before the no confidence votes, it might have made for a very different result. So yes, you can ignore the personal opinions if you want, but the raw bones of the allegations should not be so lightly dismissed.

To the question that occasionally pops up on here "How are Remainers trying to derail Brexit?" the answer seems to be that they threw away 18 months worth of negotiations, misled the public about the state of the agreements available and changed tack with the EU to pursue BRINO. This makes a mockery of the "Davis ran away" nonsense, and also points a finger very clearly at May for leaving this country tragically unprepared right now.

It also explains Tusk's intransigence at the moment - we whipped the rug from under him, presented him with a weaker deal and now are acting like a yappy puppy expecting him not to notice we've pooped on the carpet.

For reference, short version here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7iaUVR8t7g

[Piha]

B'stard Child said:

wiggy001 said:

B'stard Child said:

I watched that video and my conclusion was I have every sympathy for the EU side - no fking wonder they keep saying they need the UK to make up it's mind what it wants

As a passionate brexiter, I have to agree.

My immediate question is: why was this not picked up by any mainstream media?

Might it have something to do with the fact they the majority of people in MSM don't actually want to leave either???

wiggy001 said:

I'd heard through this thread that we were offered an FTA early on, but was of the opinion that the other stuff (not being part of security arrangements etc) made it pointless. We now hear that those were up for discussion too.

So May has been deceitful... were the media complicit in this or just unaware?

I think they probably just ignored it as it didn't fit with their narrative - lets face it during the early stages they were still finding people to interview in the street who were old gammon faced and didn't want more brown people over here.

Any evidence to back your claim up?

[Tuna]

Piha said:

Any evidence to back your claim up?

What, that the media has a narrative?

[alfie2244]

soupdragon1 said:

I've nothing to say right now, same as all those posters above me to be fair, who also had nothing to say, but decided to write some drivel just to become a member of volume 8. Shame on them - probably all Brexiteers no doubt

Good post.

[plasticpig]

No deal Brexit generate jobs for the UK: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/08/b...

[Piha]

Tuna said:

What, that the media has a narrative?

The questionable claim is in bold and easy to see (answer?).

[Digga]

Tuna said:

Greg66 said:

I've just tried to watch it, and after five minutes was ready to throw something at my screen...

Translation: "lalala, I'm not listening".

Quite. Given what is actually revealed in the first 5 to 10 minutes of the video, that seems a fairly one-eyed retort.

Watching further into it the questions come from MPs from both left and right and reflect the sort of cross-party consensus that's regrettably lacking in the actual parliamentary process.

[PurpleMoonlight]

plasticpig said:

No deal Brexit generate jobs for the UK: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/08/b...

Which you will be expected to pay for.

[B'stard Child]

Piha said:

Any evidence to back your claim up?

Nope just an opinion based on what I see in the media on a daily basis - just like most of the conversation on here is based on opinion

[Vanden Saab]

B'stard Child said:

WeCumTitVillage said:

Camoradi said:

Unicorns
Crash Out
Cliff Edge
Our future
Our children's futures

There, I've said them all to save anyone else repeating them. They're tired and they really need a rest

If you had added ' cake' you'd be able to string together a post by MrrT

Nope it would have needed the word "Flights" in there to comply

And WTO rules...

[SpeckledJim]

Piha said:

B'stard Child said:

wiggy001 said:

B'stard Child said:

I watched that video and my conclusion was I have every sympathy for the EU side - no fking wonder they keep saying they need the UK to make up it's mind what it wants

As a passionate brexiter, I have to agree.

My immediate question is: why was this not picked up by any mainstream media?

Might it have something to do with the fact they the majority of people in MSM don't actually want to leave either???

wiggy001 said:

I'd heard through this thread that we were offered an FTA early on, but was of the opinion that the other stuff (not being part of security arrangements etc) made it pointless. We now hear that those were up for discussion too.

So May has been deceitful... were the media complicit in this or just unaware?

I think they probably just ignored it as it didn't fit with their narrative - lets face it during the early stages they were still finding people to interview in the street who were old gammon faced and didn't want more brown people over here.

Any evidence to back your claim up?

Yes. They are middle class, have arts degrees, live and work in London and earn good but not stratospheric money. Nailed-on Remainerville.

[toppstuff]

Delightful irony that for many people voting Leave was about taking control of our borders.

Except Ireland. Where we don’t a border. Go figure.

[crankedup]

PurpleMoonlight said:

johnxjsc1985 said:

why is Tusk deliberately trying to ps off 17.4 million people , firstly condemning them to hell and now saying that nice Mr Corbyn has a good idea.

He didn't condemn them to hell. He condemned the leave leaders.

A CU is a method of resolving the NI/Ireland border issue whether you like it or not.

By saying what he did he is basically suggesting that leave voters didn’t know what they were voting for.This tired worn line was trotted out ad nauseam for years by the remain camp. Suppose he thought it smart and clever to re-jig the line, instead showed himself to be a bigger dick than previously revealed.

[anonymous-user]

Tuna said:

Greg66 said:

I've just tried to watch it, and after five minutes was ready to throw something at my screen.

First question: two minutes to deliver, actually two questions, one of which asked for how Baker "felt" at the time.

Answer: whatever it was, it didn't answer the question.

Second question: triple barrelled, focussing on whether Baker felt public confidence had been undermined. IOW: "what's your opinion on something about which I am not going to bother asking whether you have a factual basis to form an opinion".

In all seriousness, Select Committee Q&As more often than not consist of a competition between the questioner and the witness to get their respective opinions across.

ETA: unless the questioner is at least neutral (and Bill Cash is not a neutral questioner of Steve Baker) and there is material - whether it be documents written at the time, or evidence given by other people directly involved at the time - that can be put to the person questioned to test their answers, a Q&A session amounts to not much more than an exercise in letting the person who is being questioned say whatever they want to say with impunity. Some of it may be true, some might be half true, some of it may be false. How does one tell absent some properly critical and testing questions by reference to material other than what the questionee says?

Translation: "lalala, I'm not listening".

100% wrong. It's precisely because I was listening that I found it intolerable. Bad questions and worse answers.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to say others aren't listening to something you want to hear, go for it.

[alfie2244]

toppstuff said:

Delightful irony that for many people voting Leave was about taking control of our borders.

Except Ireland. Where we don’t a border. Go figure.

What part of the world are you reporting from today then?

[s2art]

crankedup said:

PurpleMoonlight said:

johnxjsc1985 said:

why is Tusk deliberately trying to ps off 17.4 million people , firstly condemning them to hell and now saying that nice Mr Corbyn has a good idea.

He didn't condemn them to hell. He condemned the leave leaders.

A CU is a method of resolving the NI/Ireland border issue whether you like it or not.

By saying what he did he is basically suggesting that leave voters didn’t know what they were voting for.This tired worn line was trotted out ad nauseam for years by the remain camp. Suppose he thought it smart and clever to re-jig the line, instead showed himself to be a bigger dick than previously revealed.

I think you are wrong. He meant May. Listen/watch that Brexit scrutiny meeting with Baker that was posted up. Tusk has been unfairly criticised.

[king arthur]

toppstuff said:

Delightful irony that for many people voting Leave was about taking control of our borders.

Except Ireland. Where we don’t a border. Go figure.