No gas boilers in new homes after 2025.

No gas boilers in new homes after 2025.

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Discussion

JagLover

24,983 posts

174 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
monkfish1 said:
Here is how it will pan out in the real world:

Most houses will get built with ASHP as there isn't any other sensible cost effective option for the average new build with almost no garden.

ASHP system will be specced on the basis of the houses "designed thermal efficency and air tightness".

All good so far............

House gets built. The big boys, and quite a lot of the smaller ones cant build a house to the required thermal and air tightness specs to save their lives. After all, no ones checking what goes on.

Home owner moves in.

Doesnt understand what that noisy heat recovery and ventilation system is that will also be in these new houses. Turns it of, opens window, because thats what people have always done.

Winter arrives, house is crap thermally, because it not even close to the design, ASHP doesnt work well at -5, definitely doesnt work well when house leaks heat. Owners wife is freezing, so owner goes to screwfix to buy electric heaters to plug in to help.

Electricity demand jumps up just as electricity demand is already at peak!

Owner says his heating is st.

Screwfix make a mint selling electric heaters.

House builders dont care because the house is sold.

Lets come back in winter 2025 and see how close i am to reality. Maybe i can get a gold star smile
carbon emissions go up, but Hammond doesn't care as he has already p*ssed off to the world of energy "consultancy".

frisbee

1,630 posts

49 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Lemming Train said:
EFA.


All this talk of ASHP and GSHP is just a passing fad. People can talk about thermal efficiency all they like but the truth of the matter is that they don't do st in the colder months and you'll be sit in your house shivvering your bks off at a Baltic 15C with 13 layers of clothes on. Any notion of cranking the temp up to a toasty 21C+ like every normal person will GCH would do in winter time is just pie in the sky.
And yet the house I grew up in, in Canada and made in the early 70s, had an ASHP.

Lowest was -45 one winter, 30 and very humid every summer.

Other countries easily cope without the Italian British style dramatics about the world's mildest climate.

JagLover

24,983 posts

174 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
monkfish1 said:
REALIST123 said:
There're a few things you need to learn. You need to experiment with your running programme and return flow temps to get it just right. You need to predict the temperatures to know when to turn it on at the beginning of winter because it takes a day or so to get everything warmed up.

You need to make sure you use low tog underlay and carpet; we have a few tiled rooms and several carpeted but before we fitted the HP we had the lounge done with a high Tog underlay and had to change it pretty quickly, the difference is noticeable.
And this is the issue. Clearly, you have put in a bit of effort to understand the system and tinkered until its right. Thats just not viable for the masses, who just buy a house and twiddle a thermostat. Its probably fair to say you are not "mr average" home owner!
He also has a garden which sounds at least 6 times bigger than your average new build as well.



skyrover

12,017 posts

143 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
New York had the right idea



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_...

Apart from when it goes wrong


WindyMills

115 posts

92 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
monkfish1 said:
Here is how it will pan out in the real world:

Most houses will get built with ASHP as there isn't any other sensible cost effective option for the average new build with almost no garden.

ASHP system will be specced on the basis of the houses "designed thermal efficency and air tightness".

All good so far............

House gets built. The big boys, and quite a lot of the smaller ones cant build a house to the required thermal and air tightness specs to save their lives. After all, no ones checking what goes on.

Home owner moves in.

Doesnt understand what that noisy heat recovery and ventilation system is that will also be in these new houses. Turns it of, opens window, because thats what people have always done.

Winter arrives, house is crap thermally, because it not even close to the design, ASHP doesnt work well at -5, definitely doesnt work well when house leaks heat. Owners wife is freezing, so owner goes to screwfix to buy electric heaters to plug in to help.

Electricity demand jumps up just as electricity demand is already at peak!

Owner says his heating is st.

Screwfix make a mint selling electric heaters.

House builders dont care because the house is sold.

Lets come back in winter 2025 and see how close i am to reality. Maybe i can get a gold star smile
This was happening a decade ago when social housing had to be Code Level 4.

I do planning, regs and the occasional SAP. I advise Clients that with the newer SAP, you normally need something "green". Amount of crap that tts spout afterwards drives me nuts. I'm quite good, so normally just need a bit of insulation, and maybe a WWHRS or 1 PV panel.

Even opting for the PV panel that will earn them money I get 1000 questions and comments, covering China, coal, planes, V8s, conspiracy, collusion, their knowledgeable mate, a house they built 10 years ago and the stone age, as if the software is listening and will go "ok mate, i'll let you off"

Building Control having greater remit and teeth, and being able to charge hourly will soon get rid of the incompetent and dishonest lot - solving a lot of problems in the industry.

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Kermit power

23,501 posts

152 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
voyds9 said:
Lord Marylebone said:
Producing electricity centrally in vast quantities and then using it to heat individual homes is far more efficient from a fuel/emissions point of view than having millions of gas boilers heating individual homes.

Currently we have the equivalent of every home on a remote development having a diesel generator running, instead of one larger and far more efficient one powering all 100 homes or whatever.

I believe the future lies in individual properties taking far more responsibility for their own electricity needs (solar) yet still being connected to a central power grid.

My new house that I’m building will be as energy efficient as practical, and I am looking into alternative electric-powered heating systems rather than gas.
Would you guess that producing electricity more efficiently centrally will lead to a rise or lowering of household bills?
Not a direct parallel, but the only real world comparison I can make is having a plug in hybrid.

Most months (when I don't do any long journeys) I'm averaging 60mpg or more from a 280bhp car. My monthly electricity bill has gone up by about £20, and my monthly petrol bill has dropped by around £90.

There's no particular reason why centralised generation should increase costs for consumers...

garyhun

26,242 posts

167 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
I’m going to look at a newly completed barn conversion today (assuming the agent decides to phone back like he didn’t yesterday).

It’s only a 3 bedder at around 1400 sq foot but it’s EPC says D and it’s heated by ASHP.

Would anyone care to guess if it will ever be warm, as I’m assuming D means it will lose heat pretty quickly!

Alucidnation

9,933 posts

109 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
I call bullst.

Anyway, we have ASHP and it works brilliantly.

The amount of heat it can produce from near on freezing temps is astonishing.


garyhun

26,242 posts

167 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Alucidnation said:
I call bullst.

To what?

Alucidnation

9,933 posts

109 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
By 2025.

98elise

13,882 posts

100 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
Lemming Train said:
All this talk of ASHP and GSHP is just a passing fad. People can talk about thermal efficiency all they like but the truth of the matter is that they don't do st in the colder months and you'll be sit in your house shivvering your bks off at a Baltic 15C with 13 layers of clothes on. Any notion of cranking the temp up to a toasty 21C+ like every normal person will GCH would do in winter time is just pie in the sky.
I just spent 2 weeks in Sweden with A2A ASHP just fine. It was -23C outside. I don't know how much energy it consumed but to say it didn't work isn't true at all.
Agreed. Some people can't see beyond the UK and the st quality of our homes. Heat pumps are common in commercial/office buildings in the UK and in domestic heating elsewhere in the world.

I'm working with an American at the moment and she thinks boilers and radiators are ridiculous. Whatever part of the US she's from they use heat pumps and warm air.

I have Swiss relatives and they have heat pumps and UFH. Both have solid floors everywhere though, but I don't know if that's normal for Switzerland.

Lemming Train

2,121 posts

11 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
They never get toasty. Luke warm is the best you'll get from them when the temp is low outside and that's fine for the 50% of the population that are quite comfortable in an ambient temperature of 15C. The other half of population that like it to be toasty in winter at 21C will be freezing their bks off. They're st. Proper rads and GCH boiler all the way.

FiF

34,431 posts

190 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Just a comment for those asking about electric boilers, did a check to see if my earlier thoughts up thread were correct. Found this Best Electric Boilers 2019

Seems I gave reasonably accurate information, ie limited hot water, not massive output, expensive. One thing from that list, no A rated boilers, best is C for hot water, D for heat.

Quite few years back worked on a Korean project for an electric boiler using 'Economy 7' cheap electricity. Basically it involved electrical elements heating up a ceramic matrix, just like a normal storage heater, then when heat required water passed through pipes to extract heat, it was just too complicated. In that link called a dry core storage. Personally a wet thermal store would be better, which allows input from renewables, solar, pv, heat pump.

austinsmirk

3,310 posts

62 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
if yr an intelligent Grand Designs sort of person, you'll get solar, air source heat, 100% eleccy to work.

we've tried in social housing and the tenants aren't intelligent enough to make it work: leading to horrific unaffordability problems.

combined with:

tenants shooting out all the solar panel glass

having to remove wind turbines from the roofs of flats due to complaints of noise and vibration

we've actually stripped out on mass, full electric systems (in new build) and chucked standard wet gas CH systems back in. You simply cannot train/educate/inform tenants how to live in such homes.


Where I go in flats with the old economy 7/storage heaters, no one ever uses them right- or they're covered with wet washing

where I go in "district" schemes with a central gas boiler, say warming 100 flats in a block- every tenant has it cranked up to Dante's inferno level- so yr skin is melting off yr face.


In a nutshell, you'll need an intelligence test to go all electric.

FiF

34,431 posts

190 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
To be fair though Austin you need a bit of application by the occupier to really get a gas ch system to work properly. Helps if the installer sets it up properly though.

Mind you sometimes I wonder, have tried explaining to both Mrs and Miss F that cranking up the thermostat to ship's boiler room setting doesn't make the car heater warm up any faster. Both are intelligent adults, allegedly.

Lemming Train

2,121 posts

11 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
austinsmirk said:
we've actually stripped out on mass, full electric systems (in new build) and chucked standard wet gas CH systems back in. You simply cannot train/educate/inform tenants how to live in such homes.


Where I go in flats with the old economy 7/storage heaters, no one ever uses them right- or they're covered with wet washing

where I go in "district" schemes with a central gas boiler, say warming 100 flats in a block- every tenant has it cranked up to Dante's inferno level- so yr skin is melting off yr face.


In a nutshell, you'll need an intelligence test to go all electric.
It's got nothing to do with intelligence levels. In the year 2019 we should be using technology that produces instant heat and hot water on demand. GCH for the most part performs that role admirably. What you're actually saying is that people should pass an "intelligence test" in order to use an outdated system from the 1960s and 70s that requires you to plan your heat and hot water demands 12-24 hours in advance so that it can build up enough storage for when you actually want to use it. The only difference is that it now comes with a fancy name and comes with a 5 figure price tag. I'd argue that the people who wish to go back to using tech from 50-60 years ago are the dumb ones that need to pass an intelligence test. If people wish to live in their house with the GCH set to inferno temperatures because that's what they're comfortable with then that's entirely their prerogative.

louiebaby

8,643 posts

130 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Talksteer said:
foxbody-87 said:
Moving away from fossil fuels is generally a good thing IMHO. For now though gas is probably the cleanest one we can use. Coal is dirty and electric is expensive (and usually generated using coal anyway). The one thing I will lament the loss of though is a roaring fire. The heat coming off glowing coals at the end of an evening is lovely. Plus the smell if you’re burning logs. By 2025 we will probably be running around fining people for camp fires whilst China is going full Industrial Revolution making all the crap we buy.
In the UK coal is used to generate electricity exceedingly rarely, the 2018 this was the breakdown

40.7%: Gas-fired power stations
28.1%: Renewables
22.5%: Nuclear plants
1.3%: Coal-fired power stations
7.4%: Electricity imports

Resistive heating is inefficient, current plans are that homes will be heated using heat pumps which are much more efficient.

One of the proposed methods is that existing houses may be heated with a heat pump with supplemental heat being added with gas on really cold days. Potentially some of the gas may be hydrogen which burns fine in normal boilers (though I don't see this as sensible until electricity is "too cheap to meter")
I love this website for looking at electricity generation:

https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

robbieduncan

1,078 posts

175 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
austinsmirk said:
if yr an intelligent Grand Designs sort of person, you'll get solar, air source heat, 100% eleccy to work.

we've tried in social housing and the tenants aren't intelligent enough to make it work: leading to horrific unaffordability problems.

combined with:

tenants shooting out all the solar panel glass

having to remove wind turbines from the roofs of flats due to complaints of noise and vibration

we've actually stripped out on mass, full electric systems (in new build) and chucked standard wet gas CH systems back in. You simply cannot train/educate/inform tenants how to live in such homes.


Where I go in flats with the old economy 7/storage heaters, no one ever uses them right- or they're covered with wet washing

where I go in "district" schemes with a central gas boiler, say warming 100 flats in a block- every tenant has it cranked up to Dante's inferno level- so yr skin is melting off yr face.


In a nutshell, you'll need an intelligence test to go all electric.
Remote control and monitoring with no tenant overrides possible as a solution?

ChunkyloverSV

1,117 posts

131 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
garyhun said:
I’m going to look at a newly completed barn conversion today (assuming the agent decides to phone back like he didn’t yesterday).

It’s only a 3 bedder at around 1400 sq foot but it’s EPC says D and it’s heated by ASHP.

Would anyone care to guess if it will ever be warm, as I’m assuming D means it will lose heat pretty quickly!
My house has no central heating and I have been looking at all the options. My EPC rating is G. Its a 1929 3 bed detached Bungalow on a Hill up north.

From all my reading up on ASHP/GSHP they are a utter waste of money if you do not have a new highly insulated house, everything I have read tells me that they stop working at just above freezing point. The properties that they work at under sub zero temperatures rely on a gas heater to prevent them from icing.

aeropilot

17,280 posts

166 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
brman said:
Smokehead said:
For instance, from this website - https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2016/02/pros-and...

Air Source Heat Pumps Disadvantages

The main air source heat pumps disadvantages associated with air source heat pumps are listed below:

This type of Air Source heating lowers heat supply compared to oil and gas boilers, so larger radiators would be needed
They perform better with underfloor heating or warm air heating and work more efficiently when coupled with larger radiators
Air source heat pumps are not the best option if you live on gas mains
They need electricity to be powered if there is no access to solar energy or wind power
You would need a highly insulated home to reap the high energy savings benefits
Noisy like an air conditioner when it is running
Less efficient in winter due to low Coefficient of Performance (COP) levels
but the whole point of pushing it into new builds is that, if you build the house properly, you don't need the output of a gas powered central heating system so most of those problems are not real problems anymore. Sure if you build a standard crap uk house and want it at 25degC in the middle of winter then maybe an air source heat pump is not going to hack it.
And this is why it won't work in the UK, as we'll continue to build shoddy crap new houses, that will then be freezing cold in the winter.....

The legislation first needs to be focused on building better domestic dwellings BEFORE introducing alternative heating system regs.......but this is the penalty we pay for voting for idiotic politicians who are only interested in their own personal careers (so that's all of them!)