Mass shooting in NZ mosque
Discussion
My favourite painting btw.j_4m said:
I believe there’s no magazine size limit on shotguns on an FAC, so you could own something like this legally in the UK on an FAC. There is legally nothing stopping a similar shooting happening in this country, save local firearms officers being sensible about what they allow people to put on their certificates.
Gun control does not stop mass shootings like this one. A really determined nutcase will find a way.
er, an argument that Gun Control doesn't work because it can't stop every single shooting is not just erroneous it's ridiculous.Gun control does not stop mass shootings like this one. A really determined nutcase will find a way.
Take your car. It has crumple zones, multiple airbags, seatbelts, ABS brakes, and we have speed limits, road signage and the highway code to help prevent accidents, and yet, every year, in the UK around 1,700 people are killed in car accidents. Would you suggest that therefore we remove all those safety systems because "they don't work"??
The simple FACT is that tighter Gun control prevents gun deaths. No, it can't stop EVERY SINGLE ONE, but by making access to high performance weapons more difficult it does both prevent these events from occurring and reduces the severity of events that do occur.
(For example, if you were a nutter, and you could get a nuclear bomb, you'd use that because you could kill a million people who didn't believe in your particular flavour of imaginary god in one go! But because you can't get a nuclear bomb, you're stuck with gunning a few people down instead.)
chrispmartha said:
Cerdo Espada said:
El stovey said:
e46m3Mark said:
Is it a good view from up there?
Yeah anyone who says it’s sick to watch videos of people being murdered is being a bit judgmental. Perfectly normal to seek out videos of people being slaughtered and post about how graphic it was with graphic descriptions just so everyone knows.
This is the reason why many gobby middle-class students seek out horror and death through music and film in order to feel 'something' whilst kids from working class backgrounds just get on with it and become our soldiers, police and paramedics.
One group actually grows up while the other become big babies crying on the internet when this weeks 'minority' is affected.
La Liga said:
un control in the U.K. prohibits dangerous criminals from acquiring / using firearms all the time. The quality of firearms used by criminals are extremely poor because there’s a lack of availability / the risk of possession is high.
I’m sure Derek Bird would have preferred to have had access to the weapons this chap did, for example.
But as I said, what he had was already illegal in New Zealand. He was a nutter, who should not have any any firearms licence at all regardless of which country he was living in. The failure was that he had a firearms licence and was not being watched. Not that he had particular types of firearms which he then illegally added new parts to. I’m sure Derek Bird would have preferred to have had access to the weapons this chap did, for example.
Because somebody illegally modifies or illegally uses an item, any item, which is in common use, that is not a good reason to go and start banning that item. And there are a lot of firearms in NZ, about 1 for every 4 people from what I've read, so that is common use. That is a lot higher proportion than the number of Iveco or other make of trucks and I didn't hear any calls for bans of trucks after France.
Max_Torque said:
The simple FACT is that tighter Gun control prevents gun deaths.
Err, no. The 'simple fact' is that there is a poor correlation between gun laws and deaths caused by gunshot wounds. There are plenty of countries where private firearm ownership is very difficult, but which have high levels of firearms crime. There are other countries with similar levels of development, with easier access to legal privately owned firearms with lower levels of firearms crime. Edited by DurianIceCream on Saturday 16th March 12:20
Cerdo Espada said:
Its a symptom of leftism. Along with childishness, obfuscation and delusions of grandeur there is also need to shock themselves with images of horror, usually due to a lack of exposure to real life and things around them happening by magic.
This is the reason why many gobby middle-class students seek out horror and death through music and film in order to feel 'something' whilst kids from working class backgrounds just get on with it and become our soldiers, police and paramedics.
One group actually grows up while the other become big babies crying on the internet when this weeks 'minority' is affected.
You sound nuts.This is the reason why many gobby middle-class students seek out horror and death through music and film in order to feel 'something' whilst kids from working class backgrounds just get on with it and become our soldiers, police and paramedics.
One group actually grows up while the other become big babies crying on the internet when this weeks 'minority' is affected.
Hopefully you’re on someone’s radar,
j_4m said:
La Liga said:
un control in the U.K. prohibits dangerous criminals from acquiring / using firearms all the time. The quality of firearms used by criminals are extremely poor because there’s a lack of availability / the risk of possession is high.
I’m sure Derek Bird would have preferred to have had access to the weapons this chap did, for example.
I don’t disagree in the context of regular violent crime and murder, but mass shootings of this type are a different animal. Incidentally Bird did own a semi-automatic shotgun, but it was locked in someone else’s safe so he couldn't use it. He could have applied for, and probably been granted, a semi-automatic rifle in .22 rimfire. We have had exactly three mass shootings in our entire history, previous gun control measure did nothing to stop each one happening.I’m sure Derek Bird would have preferred to have had access to the weapons this chap did, for example.
I imagine a lot of the terrorists involved in the terror attacks we’ve seen would have preferred to have had possession of some sort of firearm rather than knives etc. Their goal is mass murder so are fair mention.
One of the terrorists involved in Lee Rigby’s murder could only manage to get some crappy, old barely (if at all) working revolver IIRC. I’d suggest the gun control measures that minimise the availability of firearms available to people like him prevented him from acquiring something he could have killed more people with.
Yes, if you have someone of previous good character who has a firearms licence and has the most effective legal killing weapons who goes rogue, they can carry out a mass shooting. But then that pool of people are less likely to do such a thing. They’ve been assessed and processed through gun control measures where we balance the risks of them having such weapons for a legitimate use vs the risk of them carrying out mass shootings. And correct me if I am wrong (because I expect you know a lot more about firearms than I) but even if a person were to modify any firearm they could realistically and lawfully own, it wouldn’t be as lethal as the one this chap in NZ used.
El stovey said:
Cerdo Espada said:
Its a symptom of leftism. Along with childishness, obfuscation and delusions of grandeur there is also need to shock themselves with images of horror, usually due to a lack of exposure to real life and things around them happening by magic.
This is the reason why many gobby middle-class students seek out horror and death through music and film in order to feel 'something' whilst kids from working class backgrounds just get on with it and become our soldiers, police and paramedics.
One group actually grows up while the other become big babies crying on the internet when this weeks 'minority' is affected.
You sound nuts.This is the reason why many gobby middle-class students seek out horror and death through music and film in order to feel 'something' whilst kids from working class backgrounds just get on with it and become our soldiers, police and paramedics.
One group actually grows up while the other become big babies crying on the internet when this weeks 'minority' is affected.
Hopefully you’re on someone’s radar,
I think the ones who are 'nuts', perhaps a little bit, are the individuals who sought out the video and posted details of its content and the Walts who are busy impressing each other analysing the hardware used. As if that will make any difference as to whether future attacks occur, by whom and with what.
And as for your radar comment I think you've been watching a little too much television.
Edited by Cerdo Espada on Saturday 16th March 12:37
DurianIceCream said:
But as I said, what he had was already illegal in New Zealand. He was a nutter, who should not have any any firearms licence at all regardless of which country he was living in. The failure was that he had a firearms licence and was not being watched. Not that he had particular types of firearms which he then illegally added new parts to.
You said his high capacity magazines were illegal. That's a bit wood from the tress here. If you can't get the gun then the capacity of any magazine is irrelevant.
You are not in a position to judge whether it was realistic or not to find the information that he was unsuitable to hold a licence. The practical realities of detecting unsuitable people are in the mix of how to approach the subject.
DurianIceCream said:
Because somebody illegally modifies or illegally uses an item, any item, which is in common use, that is not a good reason to go and start banning that item. And there are a lot of firearms in NZ, about 1 for every 4 people from what I've read, so that is common use. That is a lot higher proportion than the number of Iveco or other make of trucks and I didn't hear any calls for bans of trucks after France.
Firstly, I didn't talk about prohibiting firearms overall, I am talking about considering doing so for specific ones like the semi-automatic rifle used here. Secondly, the banning of trucks is another false equivalent. Trucks and vehicles are rather fundamental to our society's infrastructure and essential. I'd suggest firearms like this chap used aren't quite as important and necessary.
La Liga said:
But then that pool of people are less likely to do such a thing. They’ve been assessed and processed through gun control measures where we balance the risks of them having such weapons for a legitimate use vs the risk of them carrying out mass shootings. And correct me if I am wrong (because I expect you know a lot more about firearms than I) but even if a person were to modify any firearm they could realistically and lawfully own, it wouldn’t be as lethal as the one this chap in NZ used.
One thing the UK is good at is keeping firearms out of the hands of nutters. But it was not always like that. The person who killed multiple kids in Dunblane was a known nutter, who had had heated confrontations with people, was a known kiddie fiddler and had been thrown out as a boy scout leader. His licence should have been revoked. It wasn't and he shot up a school. The UK handgun ban followed as a knee jerk reaction, but he could just as well have shot it up with something else which is still legal in the UK now. As for modifying something you can legally buy in the UK if you were minded to go on a shooting spree, you could do that. Just get a shotgun certificate (easy; you do not need a reason to have one) and illegally put a big tube magazine on all of the multiple semi-auto shotguns you can legally buy. Just as lethal as the semi-auto rifle used in New Zealand.
Knee jerk banning things does not do anything.
It really is the equivalent thinking we can't ban all trucks, but let's ban Iveco trucks because an Iveco truck was used in France, when the terrorist there could just as well have used a Volvo truck. But while pointless, it is pretty annoying if you just happen to own for legitimate use an Iveco truck already, like Iveco trucks and think Volvo trucks suck.
Edited by DurianIceCream on Saturday 16th March 12:43
Cerdo Espada said:
El stovey said:
Cerdo Espada said:
Its a symptom of leftism. Along with childishness, obfuscation and delusions of grandeur there is also need to shock themselves with images of horror, usually due to a lack of exposure to real life and things around them happening by magic.
This is the reason why many gobby middle-class students seek out horror and death through music and film in order to feel 'something' whilst kids from working class backgrounds just get on with it and become our soldiers, police and paramedics.
One group actually grows up while the other become big babies crying on the internet when this weeks 'minority' is affected.
You sound nuts.This is the reason why many gobby middle-class students seek out horror and death through music and film in order to feel 'something' whilst kids from working class backgrounds just get on with it and become our soldiers, police and paramedics.
One group actually grows up while the other become big babies crying on the internet when this weeks 'minority' is affected.
Hopefully you’re on someone’s radar,
Perhaps you're nuts ?
And as for your radar comment I think you've been watching a little too much television.
Cerdo Espada said:
Its a symptom of leftism. Along with childishness, obfuscation and delusions of grandeur there is also need to shock themselves with images of horror, usually due to a lack of exposure to real life and things around them happening by magic.
This is the reason why many gobby middle-class students seek out horror and death through music and film in order to feel 'something' whilst kids from working class backgrounds just get on with it and become our soldiers, police and paramedics.
One group actually grows up while the other become big babies crying on the internet when this weeks 'minority' is affected.
What a fThis is the reason why many gobby middle-class students seek out horror and death through music and film in order to feel 'something' whilst kids from working class backgrounds just get on with it and become our soldiers, police and paramedics.
One group actually grows up while the other become big babies crying on the internet when this weeks 'minority' is affected.
king bellend.BMW A6 said:
Cerdo Espada said:
Its a symptom of leftism. Along with childishness, obfuscation and delusions of grandeur there is also need to shock themselves with images of horror, usually due to a lack of exposure to real life and things around them happening by magic.
This is the reason why many gobby middle-class students seek out horror and death through music and film in order to feel 'something' whilst kids from working class backgrounds just get on with it and become our soldiers, police and paramedics.
One group actually grows up while the other become big babies crying on the internet when this weeks 'minority' is affected.
What a fThis is the reason why many gobby middle-class students seek out horror and death through music and film in order to feel 'something' whilst kids from working class backgrounds just get on with it and become our soldiers, police and paramedics.
One group actually grows up while the other become big babies crying on the internet when this weeks 'minority' is affected.
king bellend.Edited by Cerdo Espada on Saturday 16th March 12:58
Cerdo Espada said:
CBN News reported last year that hundreds of Christians were killed in clashes with the Muslim herdsman.
Last June, Fulani herdsmen, who are mostly Muslim attacked six predominantly Christian villages in Nigeria's Plateau state. Many of those killed were Christians, and they were reportedly hacked to death.
According to the Global Terrorism Index, Fulani herdsmen have killed more than 60,000 people since 2001.
60.000 !
It's the religion of peace, mind. Last June, Fulani herdsmen, who are mostly Muslim attacked six predominantly Christian villages in Nigeria's Plateau state. Many of those killed were Christians, and they were reportedly hacked to death.
According to the Global Terrorism Index, Fulani herdsmen have killed more than 60,000 people since 2001.
60.000 !
PorkRind said:
Cerdo Espada said:
CBN News reported last year that hundreds of Christians were killed in clashes with the Muslim herdsman.
Last June, Fulani herdsmen, who are mostly Muslim attacked six predominantly Christian villages in Nigeria's Plateau state. Many of those killed were Christians, and they were reportedly hacked to death.
According to the Global Terrorism Index, Fulani herdsmen have killed more than 60,000 people since 2001.
60.000 !
It's the religion of peace, mind. Last June, Fulani herdsmen, who are mostly Muslim attacked six predominantly Christian villages in Nigeria's Plateau state. Many of those killed were Christians, and they were reportedly hacked to death.
According to the Global Terrorism Index, Fulani herdsmen have killed more than 60,000 people since 2001.
60.000 !
DurianIceCream said:
One thing the UK is good at is keeping firearms out of the hands of nutters. But it was not always like that. The person who killed multiple kids in Dunblane was a known nutter, who had had heated confrontations with people, was a known kiddie fiddler and had been thrown out as a boy scout leader. His licence should have been revoked. It wasn't and he shot up a school. The UK handgun ban followed as a knee jerk reaction, but he could just as well have shot it up with something else which is still legal in the UK now.
As for modifying something you can legally buy in the UK if you were minded to go on a shooting spree, you could do that. Just get a shotgun certificate (easy; you do not need a reason to have one) and illegally put a big tube magazine on all of the multiple semi-auto shotguns you can legally buy. Just as lethal as the semi-auto rifle used in New Zealand.
Knee jerk banning things does not do anything.
It really is the equivalent thinking we can't ban all trucks, but let's ban Iveco trucks because an Iveco truck was used in France, when the terrorist there could just as well have used a Volvo truck. But while pointless, it is pretty annoying if you just happen to own for legitimate use an Iveco truck already, like Iveco trucks and think Volvo trucks suck.
Again, the truck analogy doesn't work. One of the reason previous and two, because comparing different types of firearms is different from the make of firearm (as you didn't with the trucks). As for modifying something you can legally buy in the UK if you were minded to go on a shooting spree, you could do that. Just get a shotgun certificate (easy; you do not need a reason to have one) and illegally put a big tube magazine on all of the multiple semi-auto shotguns you can legally buy. Just as lethal as the semi-auto rifle used in New Zealand.
Knee jerk banning things does not do anything.
It really is the equivalent thinking we can't ban all trucks, but let's ban Iveco trucks because an Iveco truck was used in France, when the terrorist there could just as well have used a Volvo truck. But while pointless, it is pretty annoying if you just happen to own for legitimate use an Iveco truck already, like Iveco trucks and think Volvo trucks suck.
I'm not convinced any shotgun is as overall lethal as what he used. That's in terms speed and ease of reloading, how much shotguns drop off at distance and their reduced penetration through people / materials.
It doesn't need to be knee-jerk, it can be a considered decision. A balance of rights, risks, benefits and necessity.
Each country needs to consider where its firearms thresholds are. Just because the threshold currently encompasses semi-automatic rifles doesn't mean it should remain to do so. If we're going to focus on the authorities to monitor and licence, then why ban any firearm? Why not allow people to own belt-fed light machine guns and MANPADs? Even the US has a threshold.
NZ may decide theirs needs to change.
Cerdo Espada said:
PorkRind said:
Cerdo Espada said:
CBN News reported last year that hundreds of Christians were killed in clashes with the Muslim herdsman.
Last June, Fulani herdsmen, who are mostly Muslim attacked six predominantly Christian villages in Nigeria's Plateau state. Many of those killed were Christians, and they were reportedly hacked to death.
According to the Global Terrorism Index, Fulani herdsmen have killed more than 60,000 people since 2001.
60.000 !
It's the religion of peace, mind. Last June, Fulani herdsmen, who are mostly Muslim attacked six predominantly Christian villages in Nigeria's Plateau state. Many of those killed were Christians, and they were reportedly hacked to death.
According to the Global Terrorism Index, Fulani herdsmen have killed more than 60,000 people since 2001.
60.000 !
andy_s said:
Cerdo Espada said:
PorkRind said:
Cerdo Espada said:
CBN News reported last year that hundreds of Christians were killed in clashes with the Muslim herdsman.
Last June, Fulani herdsmen, who are mostly Muslim attacked six predominantly Christian villages in Nigeria's Plateau state. Many of those killed were Christians, and they were reportedly hacked to death.
According to the Global Terrorism Index, Fulani herdsmen have killed more than 60,000 people since 2001.
60.000 !
It's the religion of peace, mind. Last June, Fulani herdsmen, who are mostly Muslim attacked six predominantly Christian villages in Nigeria's Plateau state. Many of those killed were Christians, and they were reportedly hacked to death.
According to the Global Terrorism Index, Fulani herdsmen have killed more than 60,000 people since 2001.
60.000 !
Far smaller issue is the the Fulani are not totally muslim so one either needs to break the killing down as to how many the muslim Fulani did or highlight the historic faith the Fulani follow, yes they are aggressive, always have been and ignore the rules they wish too.
La Liga said:
gain, the truck analogy doesn't work. One of the reason previous and two, because comparing different types of firearms is different from the make of firearm (as you didn't with the trucks).
I'm not convinced any shotgun is as overall lethal as what he used. That's in terms speed and ease of reloading, how much shotguns drop off at distance and their reduced penetration through people / materials.
It doesn't need to be knee-jerk, it can be a considered decision. A balance of rights, risks, benefits and necessity.
If you don't like the Iveco vs Volvo analogy and want to compare types of trucks, then it would be like banning articulated HGVs because they would be able to crash through bigger street barriers than lighter rigid trucks. Even though a lighter rigid truck did plenty of damage in France. I'm not convinced any shotgun is as overall lethal as what he used. That's in terms speed and ease of reloading, how much shotguns drop off at distance and their reduced penetration through people / materials.
It doesn't need to be knee-jerk, it can be a considered decision. A balance of rights, risks, benefits and necessity.
Governments like to ban things and like to be seen to be banning things after a serious incident. The UK banned handguns after Dunblane even though the UK state failed to enforce it's own firearms policy against a licence holder who exhibited behaviour, over a period of years, which should have denied him a licence and even though he may just have well shot up the school with a rifle which remained legal afterwards.
For shotguns - you are thinking of the tiny pellets used for clay busting or shooting small birds, rather than buckshot which is widely available, including in the UK. Shotguns are widely used by North American police to blow holes through doors because it is faster than trying to break a lock. They send over 10x the amount of lead out per shot as a rifle and are devastating at short or moderate range. From memory, there have been no mass shootings at ranges where a shotgun would be ineffective other than the person in Washington DC who sniped at people from a distance at fuel stations. They are slower to reload, but then you could just buy more shotguns. The guy in NZ certainly turned up with a lot of guns - does it matter the precise type or does it matter that he had them at all?
Phud said:
Op shows a massive lack of knowledge for the Fulani and the area they use for their nomadic lifestyle, also the fact they declare all the land they use to be theirs and nobody else has a right to be there, ignoring the tribal lands and historic empires of the region.
Far smaller issue is the the Fulani are not totally muslim so one either needs to break the killing down as to how many the muslim Fulani did or highlight the historic faith the Fulani follow, yes they are aggressive, always have been and ignore the rules they wish too.
None of that matters. Blame Islam. If those people in NZ did not follow such an evil religion they wouldn't have been murdered. If everyone conforms to a pathetic norm set by western 'civilisation', there will be no deaths, there will no deaths, there will be no deaths. Ferrchrissakes, I had thought at least this thread would keep a respectful tone instead of descending into the usual ph whataboutery and point scoring. Think again..... Far smaller issue is the the Fulani are not totally muslim so one either needs to break the killing down as to how many the muslim Fulani did or highlight the historic faith the Fulani follow, yes they are aggressive, always have been and ignore the rules they wish too.
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