How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 9)

How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 9)

Author
Discussion

Scrump

Original Poster:

4,197 posts

97 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Volume 8: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

The pace of discussion has continued type and there is still plenty coming out of the HoC for this to keep going.

Remember to keep within the Posting Rules and stay away from posting offensive material or personal insults.

NerveAgent

894 posts

159 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
I guess Scrump wins ;-)

Vanden Saab

1,880 posts

13 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Yah two volume 9s that will slow it down a bit...

mattmurdock

1,675 posts

172 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
NerveAgent said:
I guess Scrump wins ;-)
Bloody representatives overruling the will of the people and all that wink

Scrump

Original Poster:

4,197 posts

97 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Al is faster at deleting than I am!
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don'tbesilly

7,171 posts

102 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
From the previous thread:


Elysium said:
don'tbesilly said:
Elysium said:
don'tbesilly said:
There seems to be a very strong argument going on this morning as to just why a 2nd referendum is a pointless and futile way forward.

The Remainers seem to be suggesting that ignoring the first vote is perfectly acceptable whilst putting forward suggestions as to how best to engineer a 2nd referendum win for Remain.

Of course the 2nd referendum can't possibly be ignored because it suits this time around, yet based on their own arguments this morning their win can just as easily be blatantly ignored because Parliament ignored the first.

Will the second have any more validity/ credibility/ legitimacy to the first?
Your understanding of the discussion is flawed, which is causing you to assign incorrect motivations to other people actions.
I beg to differ, but feel free to draw your own conclusions.
My point is that you have already drawn your own conclusions, which are based more on your preconceived opinion than actual statements made in support of a second referendum.

I have very clearly set out justifications for a second ref over a number of weeks. I have also said repeatedly that it is not remotely about ignoring the first vote or engineering a remain win.

Despite that, you are still using that rhetoric. Your mind appears to be closed, regardless of what people say.
Perhaps I should point out, although I would have thought it obvious, that my comments were not directed at you but were in general.

I wouldn't take it personally, there are others contributing to the thread.



biggles330d

140 posts

89 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
I'd love for this to be pushed to a General Election and the Lib Dems come riding in on a single issue policy of withdrawing A50 and abandoning Brexit altogether.

With near 50% of the population having voted to remain, which is a pretty clear and easy to understand concept, and 50% voting to exit but on a total rainbow of flavours that were never defined at the outset, have never been defined since and appear to be at the root of the current chaos as nobody can agree, from Hard Exit no deal to a deal based Exit as close to remaining as makes little difference apart from loosing the ability to influence anything but having some control of immigration.. the Lib Dems could walk a general election with a massive majority as the 'leave' vote was split between a disgruntled electorate who have lost all trust and faith in the Conservatives for creating this whole mess and the horror filled prospect of Corbyn riding in on his bicycle and loony left ideology putting the death nail into the country.

I'd vote Lib Dem every day of the week for that. They couldn't do much damage in 5 years and we'd rid ourselves of this curse of Brexit on a properly democratic decision... a General Election.

Vanden Saab

1,880 posts

13 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
don'tbesilly said:
From the previous thread:


Elysium said:
don'tbesilly said:
Elysium said:
don'tbesilly said:
There seems to be a very strong argument going on this morning as to just why a 2nd referendum is a pointless and futile way forward.

The Remainers seem to be suggesting that ignoring the first vote is perfectly acceptable whilst putting forward suggestions as to how best to engineer a 2nd referendum win for Remain.

Of course the 2nd referendum can't possibly be ignored because it suits this time around, yet based on their own arguments this morning their win can just as easily be blatantly ignored because Parliament ignored the first.

Will the second have any more validity/ credibility/ legitimacy to the first?
Your understanding of the discussion is flawed, which is causing you to assign incorrect motivations to other people actions.
I beg to differ, but feel free to draw your own conclusions.
My point is that you have already drawn your own conclusions, which are based more on your preconceived opinion than actual statements made in support of a second referendum.

I have very clearly set out justifications for a second ref over a number of weeks. I have also said repeatedly that it is not remotely about ignoring the first vote or engineering a remain win.

Despite that, you are still using that rhetoric. Your mind appears to be closed, regardless of what people say.
Perhaps I should point out, although I would have thought it obvious, that my comments were not directed at you but were in general.

I wouldn't take it personally, there are others contributing to the thread.
In that case no doubt you can point us to the long list of Leave voters and MPs calling for a 2nd referendum.

Nickgnome

1,562 posts

28 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
crankedup said:
Put this forward again as the question remains unanswered, being as the debate is featured around the issue of representation / instruction I am interested in your and others pov.
It is my opinion that the referendum should not have been called.

However I accept that the government proposed and parliament confirmed via a vote.

I also accept that parliament should as far as they are able try to fulfill the request of the voting majority in the referendum.

That is were the problem lies.

The question was very simple the action required to fulfil the answer is not.

The advantage for those with little knowledge of the functioning of the economy is that they believe the solution is simple. Whilst many here do have some knowledge of the issues unfortunately a few seem never to have read or researched anything on how our government works or had any engagement with their local politicians or MP/MEP.

I maintain if TM had adopted a more colleagate approach there would have been a deal by now.

It seems she may be 3rd time lucky. My concern is the populous will think it is all sorted but actually this should have been the easy bit and what’s to come will be just as hard.

We should not dilude ourselves that any future trade agreements with major economies are going to come either easily or quickly.


Russian Troll Bot

19,927 posts

166 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
biggles330d said:
I'd love for this to be pushed to a General Election and the Lib Dems come riding in on a single issue policy of withdrawing A50 and abandoning Brexit altogether.

With near 50% of the population having voted to remain, which is a pretty clear and easy to understand concept, and 50% voting to exit but on a total rainbow of flavours that were never defined at the outset, have never been defined since and appear to be at the root of the current chaos as nobody can agree, from Hard Exit no deal to a deal based Exit as close to remaining as makes little difference apart from loosing the ability to influence anything but having some control of immigration.. the Lib Dems could walk a general election with a massive majority as the 'leave' vote was split between a disgruntled electorate who have lost all trust and faith in the Conservatives for creating this whole mess and the horror filled prospect of Corbyn riding in on his bicycle and loony left ideology putting the death nail into the country.

I'd vote Lib Dem every day of the week for that. They couldn't do much damage in 5 years and we'd rid ourselves of this curse of Brexit on a properly democratic decision... a General Election.
Yeah, that worked really well for them at the last GE.

wc98

7,569 posts

79 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
mattmurdock said:
Bloody representatives overruling the will of the people and all that wink
laugh last volume you said "The government asked for the opinion of the electorate, and made a bunch of promises about that opinion. They have then worked for several years to implement that decision.

At no point was the decision of all 17.4 million people who voted leave simply to trigger Article 50 and walk away on WTO rules. This very thread shows that.

Therefore, Parliament was obliged to use their own best judgement on how implement the decision to leave, whilst keeping in mind the national interests for the economy, security and international obligations, and whilst taking into account their own constituents views.

None of what has happened so far indicates that Parliament as a whole do not want to implement the decision of the referendum, it just shows the complexities of taking all of the above into consideration.

Personally, I am certain that we will leave at some point, as a second referendum is extremely unlikely, MPs have themselves ruled out the constitutional shenanigans of trying to wrest control of House business from the government, and now the focus is on how we reach a deal which can satisfy the majority of the House.

It looks like a farce, but it is a pretty firm representation of the freedoms we all enjoy."

i would agree with just about all of that except the withdrawal agreement doesn't meet the definition of leaving without relying on a third party, the eu, to make it so. yes, imo, but i really do struggle as do quite a few remain votes i have spoken to, to see how it does.

i really do feel many of the complexities parliament faces today are of their own making.

ps, the laughing smiley is for the comment i quoted at the beginning of the post, not the comment from the last iteration of the thread smile

Edited by wc98 on Friday 15th March 13:52

Elysium

2,675 posts

126 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
don'tbesilly said:
From the previous thread:


Elysium said:
don'tbesilly said:
Elysium said:
don'tbesilly said:
There seems to be a very strong argument going on this morning as to just why a 2nd referendum is a pointless and futile way forward.

The Remainers seem to be suggesting that ignoring the first vote is perfectly acceptable whilst putting forward suggestions as to how best to engineer a 2nd referendum win for Remain.

Of course the 2nd referendum can't possibly be ignored because it suits this time around, yet based on their own arguments this morning their win can just as easily be blatantly ignored because Parliament ignored the first.

Will the second have any more validity/ credibility/ legitimacy to the first?
Your understanding of the discussion is flawed, which is causing you to assign incorrect motivations to other people actions.
I beg to differ, but feel free to draw your own conclusions.
My point is that you have already drawn your own conclusions, which are based more on your preconceived opinion than actual statements made in support of a second referendum.

I have very clearly set out justifications for a second ref over a number of weeks. I have also said repeatedly that it is not remotely about ignoring the first vote or engineering a remain win.

Despite that, you are still using that rhetoric. Your mind appears to be closed, regardless of what people say.
Perhaps I should point out, although I would have thought it obvious, that my comments were not directed at you but were in general.

I wouldn't take it personally, there are others contributing to the thread.
Thanks for your mature response smile

psi310398

2,595 posts

142 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Nickgnome said:
We should not dilude ourselves that any future trade agreements with major economies are going to come either easily or quickly.
Well, that's a certainty if she is allowed to lead us into the WA.

CrutyRammers

9,273 posts

137 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
biggles330d said:
I'd love for this to be pushed to a General Election and the Lib Dems come riding in on a single issue policy of withdrawing A50 and abandoning Brexit altogether.

With near 50% of the population having voted to remain, which is a pretty clear and easy to understand concept, and 50% voting to exit but on a total rainbow of flavours that were never defined at the outset, have never been defined since and appear to be at the root of the current chaos as nobody can agree, from Hard Exit no deal to a deal based Exit as close to remaining as makes little difference apart from loosing the ability to influence anything but having some control of immigration.. the Lib Dems could walk a general election with a massive majority as the 'leave' vote was split between a disgruntled electorate who have lost all trust and faith in the Conservatives for creating this whole mess and the horror filled prospect of Corbyn riding in on his bicycle and loony left ideology putting the death nail into the country.

I'd vote Lib Dem every day of the week for that. They couldn't do much damage in 5 years and we'd rid ourselves of this curse of Brexit on a properly democratic decision... a General Election.
Like what already happened, you mean? When they were massively rejected by the electorate?

MDMetal

1,185 posts

87 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
biggles330d said:
I'd love for this to be pushed to a General Election and the Lib Dems come riding in on a single issue policy of withdrawing A50 and abandoning Brexit altogether.

With near 50% of the population having voted to remain, which is a pretty clear and easy to understand concept, and 50% voting to exit but on a total rainbow of flavours that were never defined at the outset, have never been defined since and appear to be at the root of the current chaos as nobody can agree, from Hard Exit no deal to a deal based Exit as close to remaining as makes little difference apart from loosing the ability to influence anything but having some control of immigration.. the Lib Dems could walk a general election with a massive majority as the 'leave' vote was split between a disgruntled electorate who have lost all trust and faith in the Conservatives for creating this whole mess and the horror filled prospect of Corbyn riding in on his bicycle and loony left ideology putting the death nail into the country.

I'd vote Lib Dem every day of the week for that. They couldn't do much damage in 5 years and we'd rid ourselves of this curse of Brexit on a properly democratic decision... a General Election.
Your argument is that the clear vote was for the well defined remain options vs a myriad of actual situations under a single "leave" options. However I'd point out most referendums are held with a status quo vs other option and status quo always has an inbuilt bias people tend not to leap in the dark. I would best as an equal number of leavers want to now stay you'd find an equal number of remainers who now don't fear leaving.

Anyway it's pointless there's no fair question you can put to the people that will give you an answer you can no more act on than the current one. If you ended up with a narrow remain victory whats the outcome?

don'tbesilly

7,171 posts

102 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
biggles330d said:
I'd love for this to be pushed to a General Election and the Lib Dems come riding in on a single issue policy of withdrawing A50 and abandoning Brexit altogether.
Their Manifesto in 2017 was very similar to the above, I guess that's what you voted for?

Were you disappointed with the GE result?

Elysium

2,675 posts

126 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
I just read a comment piece in today’s times that makes a lot of sense.

The people’s vote and labour second ref supporters referred to the Kyle Wilson amendment as a preferential route to a second ref.

This was supposed to be tabled on Tuesday when the EU deal was put to the second meaningful vote. However it was withdrawn. The amendment would see labour support the deal in return for an undertaking that it would go to a plebiscite (second ref) who would choose between ‘the deal’ and ‘remain’

The Times piece suggests that this could now reappear for the third meaningful vote as a high stakes manoeuvre for Corbyn and May.

It makes a lot of sense as it crystallises a number of things.

andymadmak

10,075 posts

209 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
biggles330d said:
I'd love for this to be pushed to a General Election and the Lib Dems come riding in on a single issue policy of withdrawing A50 and abandoning Brexit altogether.

With near 50% of the population having voted to remain, which is a pretty clear and easy to understand concept, and 50% voting to exit but on a total rainbow of flavours that were never defined at the outset, have never been defined since and appear to be at the root of the current chaos as nobody can agree, from Hard Exit no deal to a deal based Exit as close to remaining as makes little difference apart from loosing the ability to influence anything but having some control of immigration.. the Lib Dems could walk a general election with a massive majority as the 'leave' vote was split between a disgruntled electorate who have lost all trust and faith in the Conservatives for creating this whole mess and the horror filled prospect of Corbyn riding in on his bicycle and loony left ideology putting the death nail into the country.

I'd vote Lib Dem every day of the week for that. They couldn't do much damage in 5 years and we'd rid ourselves of this curse of Brexit on a properly democratic decision... a General Election.
rolleyes

Do keep up at the back! hehe


Nickgnome

1,562 posts

28 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
psi310398 said:
Nickgnome said:
We should not dilude ourselves that any future trade agreements with major economies are going to come either easily or quickly.
Well, that's a certainty if she is allowed to lead us into the WA.
It won’t. They will be undertaken by the civil service. Unfortunately we are a bit short of the necessary personnel with the required ability and experience.

Ructions

3,267 posts

60 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Have the EU said they will actually grant an extension? I think they should just throw you out on your ear and leave you to it.