Voting as a muslim

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Discussion

scenario8

5,365 posts

128 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
pequod said:
scenario8 said:
Forgive me, I have not read the previous 12 pages, but what is the “London BS of race and religion”?
The vast majority in this nation are sick and tired of hearing about racial hatred and division between religions that emanate from London, and other large cities, as regularly broadcast by the press and in other media. The OP has asked a question based on religion that never enters the mind of most voters in this country, and so it shouldn't, unless we are bent on a backwards evolution of political deliberation.

Do you deny it?
Do I deny the vast majority <snip>. I’ve no idea, frankly. I haven’t put great thought to it. I hope not. More to the point, though, I simply didn’t know what you meant. Thanks for expanding a little.

Glad to hear whatever it is isn’t exclusively a London thing, though.

Keoparakolo

987 posts

3 months

Monday 18th November 2019
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JuanCarlosFandango said:
Keoparakolo said:
LibDems - as a party they have no racist issues, there may be the odd idiot, but that isn’t endemic through the party. Their policies are reasonable. You Amy not like them, but they are reasonable
Who want to ignore the biggest democratic mandate in British political history. Very reasonable.

Keoparakolo said:
SNP - yes they’re very pro-Scottishnindependence, but they’re not outwardly racist. Again, their policies might not be to your liking
In Scotland when the OP is in London. My definition of reasonable would also exclude breaking up the UK.

I also dare say that if the English were as jumpy about racism as some groups then you could find a few "racist" SNP members.

Keoparakolo said:
Greens - pretty much a bunch of treehuggers, but have reasonable policies, not that the vast majority agree with them all.
Lib Dems who as well as wanting to ignore the referendum result want to ban cars by next Tuesday afternoon.

Keoparakolo said:
Independent candidates - some of them are Ok, some less so. They may well have great policies for their local seat
I'd be interested to hear what you think makes a reasonable candidate. I suspect we would disagree.

Keoparakolo said:
, or spoil his paper if none of the above work for his views.

It’s not difficult to “guess” that your reaction will be “but, but, but Brexit” and that is the problem here. Brexit may well be what many want, but it has become an enabler for some to vocalise their inbuilt prejudices. The referendum has polarised views and sadly created a position where people are so obsessed that they will forgive anything to deliver what they want. Johnson’s recent failure to condemn Tommy Robinson’s endorsement of him smacks of `trump failing to criticise the `white `supremacists in Charlottesville.
You mean the indignant reaction of the permanently indignant is the same?


I'm not a Muslim so I can't be sure how I would view the Tories if I was, but for a party of the right it's hardly surprising if a few of it's 190,000 members have some odd views, especially on Islam which with the best will in the world has come up for all the wrong reasons in the last few years.

Conversely they have a Muslim Chancellor, an Indian Hindu (I think?) Home Secretary and a Chairman who is half African. And Boris himself had a Muslim grandfather. It is not a fundamentally racist party, and if the worst Islamophobia anyone can find in Boris Johnson is likening the full face veil to a letterbox then it is pathetic.

The same joke was made on Have I Got News For You and nobody batted an eyelid. Polly Toynbee called the veil "a public tarring and feathering of female sexuality." She also declared there was no such thing as Islamophobia, in the Guardian.

https://order-order.com/2018/08/10/bbc-guardian-al...

Yes of course there are a few racists in the Tory party and a few more who support them. They don't define the party by any stretch of the imagination, however hard a few people try to make it so.

Moreover if you want anything approaching a free market, fiscally responsible party which might just trim back some of the worst excesses of the state then they are the only show in town. If you let a few silly comments by some obscure councillors who have since been suspended put you off then all you will achieve is letting in a genuinely racist party who want the exact opposite of those things.
Your replies to each of the parties is as predicted “but, but, but Brexit”, so no point engaging in that.

The Tory Party is embroiled in some fairly nasty racial issues. They suspended 15 serving and 10 former councillors last week. Nobody wants to even acknowledge that, let alone accept / discuss it. Sajid Javid is a lapsed Muslim by his own admission, but he was the one calling for the investigation that all leadership candidates agreed to, that’s now been shelved.

Nobody is saying it defines the party, but it does make it nigh on impossible for a Muslim to vote for them, just as it should be impossible for a Jew to vote for Labour. Boris failing to denounce a Tommy Robinson’s support for him speaks volumes. Win at all costs? White supremacists are good guys really?

It’s pathetic that many on here find it impossible to accept that their preferred party / candidate has any flaws at all.

gizlaroc

13,402 posts

173 months

Monday 18th November 2019
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I see Swinson said at CBI that she would not be helping Labour as she said the fear from the Jewish people she met this week meant she simply couldn't.


s1962a

Original Poster:

2,428 posts

111 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
Rare said:
bhstewie said:
By coincidence this was one the front page of the Guardian.

Muslim voters could swing 31 marginal seats, research finds
What a nonsense article by a nonsense paper.

Do Muslims really vote en masse??

Surely these people are British why would they be defined as being Muslim as opposed to British ?

Why do they feel they need to stand differently ?
Do Sikhs and Hindus vote en masse or is it only a Muslim thing ?
muslims don't vote en masse.. plenty of opinions, just any other British people. So why did 25 tory members get suspended for anti islamic rhetoric? let people vote for the party that best represents their views, rather than single them out for abuse.

jeff666

1,757 posts

140 months

Monday 18th November 2019
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FazerBoy said:
I don’t really understand the stance of the SNP.

It appears to me that they are saying that once Brexit is delivered they want another Scottish referendum regarding staying in the UK. I presume that if they win that they will attempt to join the EU as an independent nation.

Haven’t they seen all the issues around a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland? What would they propose happens in terms of a border between England and Scotland if they are accepted into the EU as an independent country?
I am pretty sure I read on here they would not qualify to join the EU.

Something to do with not being a net contributor, the last thing the EU needs is another drain on the shrinking money machine.

I do hope that Scotland stay in the UK, a lovely Country that I do hope to get to see one day.

gizlaroc

13,402 posts

173 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
jeff666 said:
I do hope that Scotland stay in the UK, a lovely Country that I do hope to get to see one day.
You do realise that if they leave it won't stop you from visiting?


I love Scotland, but they don't like us, so I don't bother going any more.


jeff666

1,757 posts

140 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
gizlaroc said:
You do realise that if they leave it won't stop you from visiting?


I love Scotland, but they don't like us, so I don't bother going any more.
Err yeah of course rolleyes

As for them not liking us where is your proof of this ? stay as part of the UK won the last vote so I think you are quite wide of the mark really.

gizlaroc

13,402 posts

173 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
jeff666 said:
Err yeah of course rolleyes

As for them not liking us where is your proof of this ? stay as part of the UK won the last vote so I think you are quite wide of the mark really.
I'm not saying they don't want to stay part of the UK, I'm saying they don't really like us, they are not exactly that welcoming when you go up there. Some are of course, but not even the majority.

In Edinburgh at the Festival a couple of years back we got a bus back to our house, it was pretty packed by the time we got to the top of the Dalkeith Road, a young mum who was pregnant got on with her other kid, so I got up to let her sit down. As she sat down, without any thanks, she answered her phone and said "Not much Maw, just on the bus home, but there's fking English on here too!"

Nice!

Also in many of the pubs, restaurants etc. up in more remote places, they just always feel like they will serve you, but don't expect any niceties.
My wife's folks were up in Foyers, east side of Loch Ness. They said that even after 30 years of being there they never felt totally accepted.


There are loads of great people too, but in general it always feels like a bit of an effort, don't really get that anywhere else in the world that I have been, with the exception of some parts of France.

JuanCarlosFandango

2,321 posts

20 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
Keoparakolo said:
Your replies to each of the parties is as predicted “but, but, but Brexit”, so no point engaging in that.

The Tory Party is embroiled in some fairly nasty racial issues. They suspended 15 serving and 10 former councillors last week. Nobody wants to even acknowledge that, let alone accept / discuss it. Sajid Javid is a lapsed Muslim by his own admission, but he was the one calling for the investigation that all leadership candidates agreed to, that’s now been shelved.

Nobody is saying it defines the party, but it does make it nigh on impossible for a Muslim to vote for them, just as it should be impossible for a Jew to vote for Labour. Boris failing to denounce a Tommy Robinson’s support for him speaks volumes. Win at all costs? White supremacists are good guys really?

It’s pathetic that many on here find it impossible to accept that their preferred party / candidate has any flaws at all.
There are 7,500 Tory councillors in the country so 15 is hardly an epidemic and they have been suspended.

As for Robinson it was hardly major news and Boris may well have thought it better to not even acknowledge the endorsement than draw more attention to it and thus Robinson.

I imagine some will see a so called independent enquiry as just an opportunity to throw a load of mud around election time, which will gain them nothing.

Anyone who writes off the party as institutionally racist because 15/7500 councillors got suspended for Facebook posts when 2 of the 4 great offices of state are held by ethnic minority MPs is frankly looking for an excuse.

ETA
As for not seeing the flaws of my preferred candidate/party, I assure you I can:

The Withdrawal Agreement is absolute rubbish, and I would prefer to leave with no deal.

Boris Johnson is an egomaniac and apparently a liar.

He is also about as (small c) conservative as Madonna.

The Tory party has a record of duplicity on Europe dating back to the 1960s.

They created this mess in 2016 by calling a referendum they thought they could walk then losing it, and they kept digging by appointing Theresa May to try and undo it. Then failed again.

Despite so called austerity they have failed to balance the budget for 9 years.

...to name but a few. Endemic racism is not one of the flaws I see however.

I am no fan of the Tory party, and last voted for them in 2001, I think. However they are far and away the best option on my ballot paper this time around and I can't see that changing if I happened to be a Muslim with a similar outlook to my current outlook.



Edited by JuanCarlosFandango on Monday 18th November 22:49

ATG

16,343 posts

221 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
Pothole said:
ATG said:
voyds9 said:
If you see your self as part of an homogeneous group don't be surprised when the other 95% treat you as part of an homogeneous group
Saying "I'm a Muslim" is NOT saying "I'm part of an homogeneous group." It doesn't take much imagination to see that. For example do you think Christians in Northern Ireland are an homogenous group?

The homogeneity is almost always a supposition made by someone who definitely doesn't consider them self a member of the group. Anyone inside such a supposed group will see ask the factions, ranges of opinions held, the arguments, etc
Utterly ste example. How many in Northern Ireland would describe themselves as merely "Christian"? Do try and compare like with like if you really think you've got a point.
Not sure if serious? Do you really think when a Muslim says "I am a Muslim" they mean it differently from a Christian says "I am a Christian"? Neither group thinks they are _only_ a Christian or _only_ a Muslim. Both religions have many, many sects and many of those sects hold radically opposing views and don't even consider all the other sects to even be fellow Christians or Muslims.

The whole bleeding point is that an outsider who sees all Christians as being as single homogeneous group would have a an extremely distorted view of reality. Now see if you can extend that idea to Muslims.

ATG

16,343 posts

221 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
JuanCarlosFandango said:
There are 7,500 Tory councillors in the country so 15 is hardly an epidemic and they have been suspended.
Given the accusation is that they've failed to deal with the problem, that ratio is not a compelling defence. Others see it as part of the indictment. "They've got a big problem yet they've only suspended 15 of them. Should be more, and they should have been chucked out, not suspended."

Mr Tidy

10,126 posts

76 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
quotequote all
At the risk of being controversial, why would a Muslim emigrate to a predominately Christian country in the first place?

And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?

What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?






ATG

16,343 posts

221 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
quotequote all
Mr Tidy said:
At the risk of being controversial, why would a Muslim emigrate to a predominately Christian country in the first place?

And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?

What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?





All he's asking is that he's not actively discriminated against.

Do you think that is unreasonable?

B'stard Child

19,259 posts

195 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
quotequote all
gizlaroc said:
jeff666 said:
Err yeah of course rolleyes

As for them not liking us where is your proof of this ? stay as part of the UK won the last vote so I think you are quite wide of the mark really.
I'm not saying they don't want to stay part of the UK, I'm saying they don't really like us, they are not exactly that welcoming when you go up there. Some are of course, but not even the majority.

In Edinburgh at the Festival a couple of years back we got a bus back to our house, it was pretty packed by the time we got to the top of the Dalkeith Road, a young mum who was pregnant got on with her other kid, so I got up to let her sit down. As she sat down, without any thanks, she answered her phone and said "Not much Maw, just on the bus home, but there's fking English on here too!"

Nice!

Also in many of the pubs, restaurants etc. up in more remote places, they just always feel like they will serve you, but don't expect any niceties.
My wife's folks were up in Foyers, east side of Loch Ness. They said that even after 30 years of being there they never felt totally accepted.


There are loads of great people too, but in general it always feels like a bit of an effort, don't really get that anywhere else in the world that I have been, with the exception of some parts of France.
Without making a England - Scotland thread here I think you examples whilst very credible are also typical of the noisy minority - It’s another reason why if the SNP got another referendum on independance and it was UK wide they would walk it - majority of people I know would love to shut up windbags from the SNP dominating news coverage. (A noisy minority don’t speak for all)

Just like you shouldn’t tar England with a brush after meeting a few bigoted/racist TR types you shouldn’t tar Scotland with a brush with a few bigoted / racist Nationalists

Digga

28,953 posts

232 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
quotequote all
Mr Tidy said:
At the risk of being controversial, why would a Muslim emigrate to a predominately Christian country in the first place?

And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?

What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?





Why emigrate to a Spanish resort and expect to be able to read the Sun and the Mail whilst eating a full English every day?

JagLover

27,324 posts

184 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
quotequote all
ATG said:
Mr Tidy said:
At the risk of being controversial, why would a Muslim emigrate to a predominately Christian country in the first place?

And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?

What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?





All he's asking is that he's not actively discriminated against.

Do you think that is unreasonable?
Is he? or does he want to prevent blasphemy against Islam. Because many of those pushing "anti-islamophobia" legislation want the latter.

Troubleatmill

8,342 posts

108 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
quotequote all
JagLover said:
ATG said:
Mr Tidy said:
At the risk of being controversial, why would a Muslim emigrate to a predominately Christian country in the first place?

And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?

What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?





All he's asking is that he's not actively discriminated against.

Do you think that is unreasonable?
Is he? or does he want to prevent blasphemy against Islam. Because many of those pushing "anti-islamophobia" legislation want the latter.
I'm sure Sky Fairies of all persuasion are big enough and ugly enough to take some criticism.
Devotees of pretty much every other Sky Fairy don't make a song and dance about it.

Digga

28,953 posts

232 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
quotequote all
The elephant in the room about religion - of any type and origin - in a modern, Western society, is that it cannot and should not exist to overtly change or infringe the reasonable behaviour and activities of others. So non-discrimination applies, only so far as individuals respecting the legal and moral rights of others, be those religious, gender, sexual, or anything else, such as, for example, drinking (but not, by extension, drunk and disorderly) in public.

Neither, IMHO, should religous organisations use their charitable status as an active means of tax avoidance, let alone tax evasion. However, some have made it their MO to acquire property and run businesses in such a way.

ChevyChase77

1,079 posts

7 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
quotequote all
Troubleatmill said:
clio007 said:
All Brexiteers are not racist.

But all racists are brexiteers.
Can you cite some evidence for this?
There isn't any because it's b*llsh*t.

TwigtheWonderkid

30,781 posts

99 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
quotequote all
ChevyChase77 said:
Troubleatmill said:
clio007 said:
All Brexiteers are not racist.

But all racists are brexiteers.
Can you cite some evidence for this?
There isn't any because it's b*llsh*t.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/brexit-prejudice-scientists-link-foreigners-immigrants-racism-xenophobia-leave-eu-a8078586.html