Voting as a muslim
Discussion
jeff666 said:
Err yeah of course 
As for them not liking us where is your proof of this ? stay as part of the UK won the last vote so I think you are quite wide of the mark really.
I'm not saying they don't want to stay part of the UK, I'm saying they don't really like us, they are not exactly that welcoming when you go up there. Some are of course, but not even the majority.As for them not liking us where is your proof of this ? stay as part of the UK won the last vote so I think you are quite wide of the mark really.
In Edinburgh at the Festival a couple of years back we got a bus back to our house, it was pretty packed by the time we got to the top of the Dalkeith Road, a young mum who was pregnant got on with her other kid, so I got up to let her sit down. As she sat down, without any thanks, she answered her phone and said "Not much Maw, just on the bus home, but there's f
king English on here too!" Nice!
Also in many of the pubs, restaurants etc. up in more remote places, they just always feel like they will serve you, but don't expect any niceties.
My wife's folks were up in Foyers, east side of Loch Ness. They said that even after 30 years of being there they never felt totally accepted.
There are loads of great people too, but in general it always feels like a bit of an effort, don't really get that anywhere else in the world that I have been, with the exception of some parts of France.
Keoparakolo said:
Your replies to each of the parties is as predicted “but, but, but Brexit”, so no point engaging in that.
The Tory Party is embroiled in some fairly nasty racial issues. They suspended 15 serving and 10 former councillors last week. Nobody wants to even acknowledge that, let alone accept / discuss it. Sajid Javid is a lapsed Muslim by his own admission, but he was the one calling for the investigation that all leadership candidates agreed to, that’s now been shelved.
Nobody is saying it defines the party, but it does make it nigh on impossible for a Muslim to vote for them, just as it should be impossible for a Jew to vote for Labour. Boris failing to denounce a Tommy Robinson’s support for him speaks volumes. Win at all costs? White supremacists are good guys really?
It’s pathetic that many on here find it impossible to accept that their preferred party / candidate has any flaws at all.
There are 7,500 Tory councillors in the country so 15 is hardly an epidemic and they have been suspended. The Tory Party is embroiled in some fairly nasty racial issues. They suspended 15 serving and 10 former councillors last week. Nobody wants to even acknowledge that, let alone accept / discuss it. Sajid Javid is a lapsed Muslim by his own admission, but he was the one calling for the investigation that all leadership candidates agreed to, that’s now been shelved.
Nobody is saying it defines the party, but it does make it nigh on impossible for a Muslim to vote for them, just as it should be impossible for a Jew to vote for Labour. Boris failing to denounce a Tommy Robinson’s support for him speaks volumes. Win at all costs? White supremacists are good guys really?
It’s pathetic that many on here find it impossible to accept that their preferred party / candidate has any flaws at all.
As for Robinson it was hardly major news and Boris may well have thought it better to not even acknowledge the endorsement than draw more attention to it and thus Robinson.
I imagine some will see a so called independent enquiry as just an opportunity to throw a load of mud around election time, which will gain them nothing.
Anyone who writes off the party as institutionally racist because 15/7500 councillors got suspended for Facebook posts when 2 of the 4 great offices of state are held by ethnic minority MPs is frankly looking for an excuse.
ETA
As for not seeing the flaws of my preferred candidate/party, I assure you I can:
The Withdrawal Agreement is absolute rubbish, and I would prefer to leave with no deal.
Boris Johnson is an egomaniac and apparently a liar.
He is also about as (small c) conservative as Madonna.
The Tory party has a record of duplicity on Europe dating back to the 1960s.
They created this mess in 2016 by calling a referendum they thought they could walk then losing it, and they kept digging by appointing Theresa May to try and undo it. Then failed again.
Despite so called austerity they have failed to balance the budget for 9 years.
...to name but a few. Endemic racism is not one of the flaws I see however.
I am no fan of the Tory party, and last voted for them in 2001, I think. However they are far and away the best option on my ballot paper this time around and I can't see that changing if I happened to be a Muslim with a similar outlook to my current outlook.
Edited by JuanCarlosFandango on Monday 18th November 22:49
Pothole said:
ATG said:
voyds9 said:
If you see your self as part of an homogeneous group don't be surprised when the other 95% treat you as part of an homogeneous group
Saying "I'm a Muslim" is NOT saying "I'm part of an homogeneous group." It doesn't take much imagination to see that. For example do you think Christians in Northern Ireland are an homogenous group?The homogeneity is almost always a supposition made by someone who definitely doesn't consider them self a member of the group. Anyone inside such a supposed group will see ask the factions, ranges of opinions held, the arguments, etc
te example. How many in Northern Ireland would describe themselves as merely "Christian"? Do try and compare like with like if you really think you've got a point.The whole bleeding point is that an outsider who sees all Christians as being as single homogeneous group would have a an extremely distorted view of reality. Now see if you can extend that idea to Muslims.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
There are 7,500 Tory councillors in the country so 15 is hardly an epidemic and they have been suspended.
Given the accusation is that they've failed to deal with the problem, that ratio is not a compelling defence. Others see it as part of the indictment. "They've got a big problem yet they've only suspended 15 of them. Should be more, and they should have been chucked out, not suspended."At the risk of being controversial, why would a Muslim emigrate to a predominately Christian country in the first place?
And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?
What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?
And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?
What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?
Mr Tidy said:
At the risk of being controversial, why would a Muslim emigrate to a predominately Christian country in the first place?
And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?
What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?
All he's asking is that he's not actively discriminated against.And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?
What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?
Do you think that is unreasonable?
gizlaroc said:
jeff666 said:
Err yeah of course
As for them not liking us where is your proof of this ? stay as part of the UK won the last vote so I think you are quite wide of the mark really.
I'm not saying they don't want to stay part of the UK, I'm saying they don't really like us, they are not exactly that welcoming when you go up there. Some are of course, but not even the majority.As for them not liking us where is your proof of this ? stay as part of the UK won the last vote so I think you are quite wide of the mark really.
In Edinburgh at the Festival a couple of years back we got a bus back to our house, it was pretty packed by the time we got to the top of the Dalkeith Road, a young mum who was pregnant got on with her other kid, so I got up to let her sit down. As she sat down, without any thanks, she answered her phone and said "Not much Maw, just on the bus home, but there's f
king English on here too!" Nice!
Also in many of the pubs, restaurants etc. up in more remote places, they just always feel like they will serve you, but don't expect any niceties.
My wife's folks were up in Foyers, east side of Loch Ness. They said that even after 30 years of being there they never felt totally accepted.
There are loads of great people too, but in general it always feels like a bit of an effort, don't really get that anywhere else in the world that I have been, with the exception of some parts of France.
Just like you shouldn’t tar England with a brush after meeting a few bigoted/racist TR types you shouldn’t tar Scotland with a brush with a few bigoted / racist Nationalists
Mr Tidy said:
At the risk of being controversial, why would a Muslim emigrate to a predominately Christian country in the first place?
And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?
What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?
Why emigrate to a Spanish resort and expect to be able to read the Sun and the Mail whilst eating a full English every day?And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?
What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?
ATG said:
Mr Tidy said:
At the risk of being controversial, why would a Muslim emigrate to a predominately Christian country in the first place?
And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?
What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?
All he's asking is that he's not actively discriminated against.And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?
What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?
Do you think that is unreasonable?
JagLover said:
ATG said:
Mr Tidy said:
At the risk of being controversial, why would a Muslim emigrate to a predominately Christian country in the first place?
And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?
What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?
All he's asking is that he's not actively discriminated against.And then living in a 5% minority group seem to expect to have some sort of control?
What about the views of the other 95% of residents - or don't you understand how a democracy is supposed to work?
Do you think that is unreasonable?
Devotees of pretty much every other Sky Fairy don't make a song and dance about it.
The elephant in the room about religion - of any type and origin - in a modern, Western society, is that it cannot and should not exist to overtly change or infringe the reasonable behaviour and activities of others. So non-discrimination applies, only so far as individuals respecting the legal and moral rights of others, be those religious, gender, sexual, or anything else, such as, for example, drinking (but not, by extension, drunk and disorderly) in public.
Neither, IMHO, should religous organisations use their charitable status as an active means of tax avoidance, let alone tax evasion. However, some have made it their MO to acquire property and run businesses in such a way.
Neither, IMHO, should religous organisations use their charitable status as an active means of tax avoidance, let alone tax evasion. However, some have made it their MO to acquire property and run businesses in such a way.
ChevyChase77 said:
Troubleatmill said:
clio007 said:
All Brexiteers are not racist.
But all racists are brexiteers.
Can you cite some evidence for this?But all racists are brexiteers.
Keoparakolo said:
Liokault said:
Keoparakolo said:
Vanden Saab said:
Would you care to list them or do we have to guess...
SNP - yes they’re very pro-Scottishnindependence, but they’re not outwardly racist. .
TwigtheWonderkid said:
ChevyChase77 said:
Troubleatmill said:
clio007 said:
All Brexiteers are not racist.
But all racists are brexiteers.
Can you cite some evidence for this?But all racists are brexiteers.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
"The first study took place shortly after the EU referendum, and it consisted of an online questionnaire of 280 participants who had voted in it. The second study involved 226 people"can't beat a good bit of research
scenario8 said:
Do I deny the vast majority <snip>. I’ve no idea, frankly. I haven’t put great thought to it. I hope not. More to the point, though, I simply didn’t know what you meant. Thanks for expanding a little.
Glad to hear whatever it is isn’t exclusively a London thing, though.
Identity politics is at least one area of global unity.Glad to hear whatever it is isn’t exclusively a London thing, though.
poo at Paul's said:
The notion of even considering one's religion when looking at a political vote sits extremely ill to me. The two should be completely unrelated.
That you feel they are not, means something, somewhere, is wrong.
I'm certainly considering my birth religion with my vote. I'm actually an atheist, but Jewish by birth, upbringing, heritage and race. My religion, or lack of it, doesn't impact my vote. The Labour party's actions towards my fellow Jews certainly does, just as the BNP's attitudes towards people with a different skin colour did when they were a thing. That you feel they are not, means something, somewhere, is wrong.
The difference between Labour and Conservative for me is illustrated by those holding the Chancellor/Shadow Chancellor positions. One is a Muslim, the other is a racist (see comments on Ian Austin, Esther McVey et al).
Yes, there are racists in the Tory party, and everywhere else. I've encountered it at work, in my hobbies etc. But it's not, IMHO, institutionally racist.
Telling someone from a minority group that religion and politics are unrelated is the whitest bullshirt going and I'm sorry that the OP has had 14+ pages of this to scroll through to find any sensible answers.
Labour and the Conservatives sit at far ends of a wide political spectrum. The idea that you simply must vote for one or the other and to hell with anything moderate in between them is what got us into this mess.
Labour and the Conservatives sit at far ends of a wide political spectrum. The idea that you simply must vote for one or the other and to hell with anything moderate in between them is what got us into this mess.
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