High Street chains favouring UK employees
Discussion
The elephant in the room is that too many kids who'd previously have gone straight into a company at the bottom and been bright enough to work their way up the chain, now think their life chances are enhanced only if they get themselves £40k in debt going to study a degree which offers them no advantage at a 'University' that once taught kids useful vocational skills while on work placement.
Then they leave Skegness 'Uni' with a second in African Mask Making and end up doing the same kind of jobs they would have done anyway but feel cheated and can't afford a house deposit.
Then they leave Skegness 'Uni' with a second in African Mask Making and end up doing the same kind of jobs they would have done anyway but feel cheated and can't afford a house deposit.
Sticks. said:
Perhaps the zero hours is the problem as much as anything? Anyone with a family or rent on that money is likely to be on Tax/Universal Credit, and from what I saw on TV the other day the two don't work together at all well.
We have a "base-line" fulltime crew (most are Eastern European also) which are full time but we have to staff for the troughs. As the business has grown, so have the number of full time staff but like other industries - ours is quite seasonal and we couldn't afford to be employing staff that had little to do. Our margins are such that every member of staff has to be productive from the moment they arrive to the moment they finish. Our customers and the consumer demands low cost of picking, packing, storage and delivery and this is reflected in our business operation.Getting back to the staff, my experience is that most of the Eastern Europeans that we have are quite educated (alot have degrees). I'd guess that their own national "underclasses" remain in their own country of origin and are similar in terms of work ethic to the UK's great unwashed? Most of the migrants we have at least wish to go out and earn a living.
A bit controversial and a generalisation but, if I've the choice between hiring a Brit at £9 per hour or an Eastern European - i'll probably hire the migrant worker. In my experience over the last decade or so, they're harder working, more reliable, £ for £ - more intelligent, more grateful for employment, more flexible (extra shifts etc). Terrible thing to say - but very true and i'm sure many other employers feel the same. Hence, we'll up and lift much of our operation to the EU where the labour pool is bigger and more flexible
Edited by Candellara on Thursday 20th February 14:51
Edited by Candellara on Thursday 20th February 14:51
yellowjack said:
I'm cool with the prospect of eating out becoming unaffordable to me, if it means my kids, both of whom have been to university, don't have to put up with s
tty jobs for poor wages. I'd happily put up with doing a stty job if the wages compensated for it. I'd put up with low wages for a job that I enjoyed doing and was beneficial to society. But the sad fact is that high earners have too long looked down their noses at those who empty their bins and scrub their faeces from the back of the WC pan. A lot of these "low skilled" jobs are essential, but the employees are not anywhere near adequately remunerated. If that is the cost of new immigration policies, blame the Brexiteers. We're about to get what we are assured we voted for in a fair and free democratic process. "Be careful what you wish for" has long been standard issue wisdom, but still people fall foul of the "law of unintended consequences".
I'll let you know any information I get drip-fed about whether retail employers really do favour indigenous workers or not. Son No 1 is currently employed in the fresh produce department of a leading supermarket chain, having failed to graduate, and he's dragging around 4 years worth of student debt, not paying a penny back due to earning too little. Son No 2 graduated, but is having an interview for a position as an 'online shopper' at another leading supermarket chain as a "filler" job while he waits to hear the result of an application to go abroad to teach English. Both boys are alarmingly intelligent, willing to learn, and willing to work. Both have struggled to find work in the past in jobs where foreign nationals with uncheckable qualifications and references have seemingly strolled into appointments. Make of that what you will. I'm not against foreign staff in UK jobs, but I really do worry about the future of the care system in particular, if we have to do without those foreign workers. The owner, manager, and I'd estimate around 80% of the staff that I've met at my mother-in-law's care home are non-native. Many of them struggle with English, and I'm concerned that vulnerable and confused residents aren't always able to have their needs understood and met. Of course it would be better to have the home staffed by caring individuals with English to a 'first language' standard. But if those foreign staff leave in droves who will train British kids to replace them? And will British kids even want to fulfil roles that involve "washing, drying, and applying medicated cream to the skin under Mrs Fotheringill's breasts" or bathing some poor old doubly incontinent soul who shat themself during the night?
Some of what I've typed will no doubt look like it contradicts itself. So be it. For too long in this country we have rewarded those who allegedly "create wealth" by gambling on markets, and those who do important work, like actually making and selling stuff, or saving lives, and making the world a nicer place by caring for the vulnerable and cleaning up after the idle rich? They get held down in low wages by those at the top. I'm no tinfoil hatted loony, I'm not a "property is theft" nutter. I'm just someone who wouldn't mind seeing a fairer distribution of this illusory "created wealth", because without the cleaners and the bus drivers and the shop workers, those who sit in the offices shooting cuffs to flash their latest Rolex watch, watching numbers on screens rise and fall like a demented rollercoaster, simply wouldn't be in a position to make their millions. People just want a fair deal, and if the jobs on offer looked like a fair exchange of labour for wages, then we'd never have needed to import such a large percentage of our workforce in the first place.
On an unrelated note, we're also currently experiencing the fall-out in the manufacturing sector of the folly of outsourcing component manufacture and supply to the Far East. Eventually it had to come to this though. You can't base the economy of an international trading nation on outsourced manufacturing indefinitely. All the beardstroking in the world about how great it is that the UK produces far fewer CO2 emissions per head of population is of no use if the assembly lines of JCB and JLR among others have ground to a halt because of one or two seemingly innocuous but absolutely vital "Widgets" buried deep within their products. But as in industrieever, the ability to pay less for a product through lower wages abroad, and the opportunity to kill off yet another pesky "union baron" and his troublesome minions was too good an opportunity to miss. All of the things that put the 'Great' in Great Britain seem to have supined themselves to foreign nations, rolled over, and played dead. The merchant navy, manufacturing, infrastructure development and construction? All we ever hear is how this plant's steel can be made more cheaply in China, or that company's cars can be assembled abroad and imported at lower unit cost than building them at Dagenham, Southampton, Speke or Abingdon. And now even those plants that kept final assembly in the UK are struggling to keep production lines open due to shortages of components from abroad. Tell me this is "progress"? Because it doesn't look that way to me...
I’m wondering who will invest in repatriating various manufacturing jobs. You?tty jobs for poor wages. I'd happily put up with doing a stty job if the wages compensated for it. I'd put up with low wages for a job that I enjoyed doing and was beneficial to society. But the sad fact is that high earners have too long looked down their noses at those who empty their bins and scrub their faeces from the back of the WC pan. A lot of these "low skilled" jobs are essential, but the employees are not anywhere near adequately remunerated. If that is the cost of new immigration policies, blame the Brexiteers. We're about to get what we are assured we voted for in a fair and free democratic process. "Be careful what you wish for" has long been standard issue wisdom, but still people fall foul of the "law of unintended consequences".I'll let you know any information I get drip-fed about whether retail employers really do favour indigenous workers or not. Son No 1 is currently employed in the fresh produce department of a leading supermarket chain, having failed to graduate, and he's dragging around 4 years worth of student debt, not paying a penny back due to earning too little. Son No 2 graduated, but is having an interview for a position as an 'online shopper' at another leading supermarket chain as a "filler" job while he waits to hear the result of an application to go abroad to teach English. Both boys are alarmingly intelligent, willing to learn, and willing to work. Both have struggled to find work in the past in jobs where foreign nationals with uncheckable qualifications and references have seemingly strolled into appointments. Make of that what you will. I'm not against foreign staff in UK jobs, but I really do worry about the future of the care system in particular, if we have to do without those foreign workers. The owner, manager, and I'd estimate around 80% of the staff that I've met at my mother-in-law's care home are non-native. Many of them struggle with English, and I'm concerned that vulnerable and confused residents aren't always able to have their needs understood and met. Of course it would be better to have the home staffed by caring individuals with English to a 'first language' standard. But if those foreign staff leave in droves who will train British kids to replace them? And will British kids even want to fulfil roles that involve "washing, drying, and applying medicated cream to the skin under Mrs Fotheringill's breasts" or bathing some poor old doubly incontinent soul who shat themself during the night?
Some of what I've typed will no doubt look like it contradicts itself. So be it. For too long in this country we have rewarded those who allegedly "create wealth" by gambling on markets, and those who do important work, like actually making and selling stuff, or saving lives, and making the world a nicer place by caring for the vulnerable and cleaning up after the idle rich? They get held down in low wages by those at the top. I'm no tinfoil hatted loony, I'm not a "property is theft" nutter. I'm just someone who wouldn't mind seeing a fairer distribution of this illusory "created wealth", because without the cleaners and the bus drivers and the shop workers, those who sit in the offices shooting cuffs to flash their latest Rolex watch, watching numbers on screens rise and fall like a demented rollercoaster, simply wouldn't be in a position to make their millions. People just want a fair deal, and if the jobs on offer looked like a fair exchange of labour for wages, then we'd never have needed to import such a large percentage of our workforce in the first place.
On an unrelated note, we're also currently experiencing the fall-out in the manufacturing sector of the folly of outsourcing component manufacture and supply to the Far East. Eventually it had to come to this though. You can't base the economy of an international trading nation on outsourced manufacturing indefinitely. All the beardstroking in the world about how great it is that the UK produces far fewer CO2 emissions per head of population is of no use if the assembly lines of JCB and JLR among others have ground to a halt because of one or two seemingly innocuous but absolutely vital "Widgets" buried deep within their products. But as in industrieever, the ability to pay less for a product through lower wages abroad, and the opportunity to kill off yet another pesky "union baron" and his troublesome minions was too good an opportunity to miss. All of the things that put the 'Great' in Great Britain seem to have supined themselves to foreign nations, rolled over, and played dead. The merchant navy, manufacturing, infrastructure development and construction? All we ever hear is how this plant's steel can be made more cheaply in China, or that company's cars can be assembled abroad and imported at lower unit cost than building them at Dagenham, Southampton, Speke or Abingdon. And now even those plants that kept final assembly in the UK are struggling to keep production lines open due to shortages of components from abroad. Tell me this is "progress"? Because it doesn't look that way to me...
Surely we must accept that we cannot compete with low wage economies in certain industries. Better invest in an high skill economy and using the tax take to help with things like the NHS and care.
As too your sons I’m really surprised they cannot get trainee rolls in any number of companies, particularly London based. I’ve no idea what there skillsets are but there is no shortage of opportunities. They may end up flat/house sharing, wherever but it won’t take too long before they would be earning reasonable money. A grad trainee should expect £30k so not too shabby when you are early twenties.
Coolbananas said:
Absolutely! I can't wait to read about the lazy and feckless scroungers who have become so abundant in the decades Post-WW2 thanks to entitled Labour policies now happily getting off their butts and working. And for a decent wage, the cost of which is then passed onto you, the Customer, who will no doubt gladly pay the extra and not whinge one bit about the cost of living having gone up.
Good times ahead!
I assume you're taking the piss but if I have to pay a quid for a bag of onions instead of 30p so the farm labourer can earn more than min wage then that's a good thing. Good times ahead!
Mark Benson said:
The elephant in the room is that too many kids who'd previously have gone straight into a company at the bottom and been bright enough to work their way up the chain, now think their life chances are enhanced only if they get themselves £40k in debt going to study a degree which offers them no advantage at a 'University' that once taught kids useful vocational skills while on work placement.
Then they leave Skegness 'Uni' with a second in African Mask Making and end up doing the same kind of jobs they would have done anyway but feel cheated and can't afford a house deposit.
Rightly or wrongly we as a society have emphasised the absolute need to get a degree. It’s hardly fair to point the finger at those students who do listen to their elders. Then they leave Skegness 'Uni' with a second in African Mask Making and end up doing the same kind of jobs they would have done anyway but feel cheated and can't afford a house deposit.
The majority do not undertake obscure degrees but in any case the subject is only partially relevant. University used to be there for the benefit of learning a subject that the student really enjoyed. Vocational degrees are not the be all and end all and can end up with a very restricted mindset.
Mrr T said:
Oakey said:
Why do you think Eastern Europeans are so happy to come here and do this mind numbing work for such low pay instead of doing the same job back home?
They do it because the work is really available. Interview today start tomorrow. So they can improve their English, get some money to be able to rent, and look for another and better paying job. ChocolateFrog said:
Coolbananas said:
Absolutely! I can't wait to read about the lazy and feckless scroungers who have become so abundant in the decades Post-WW2 thanks to entitled Labour policies now happily getting off their butts and working. And for a decent wage, the cost of which is then passed onto you, the Customer, who will no doubt gladly pay the extra and not whinge one bit about the cost of living having gone up.
Good times ahead!
I assume you're taking the piss but if I have to pay a quid for a bag of onions instead of 30p so the farm labourer can earn more than min wage then that's a good thing. Good times ahead!
I assume you request a rise.
Eventually that spiral leads to our exports being unaffordable by those with whom we wish to trade.
What happens then?
Nickgnome said:
Mark Benson said:
The elephant in the room is that too many kids who'd previously have gone straight into a company at the bottom and been bright enough to work their way up the chain, now think their life chances are enhanced only if they get themselves £40k in debt going to study a degree which offers them no advantage at a 'University' that once taught kids useful vocational skills while on work placement.
Then they leave Skegness 'Uni' with a second in African Mask Making and end up doing the same kind of jobs they would have done anyway but feel cheated and can't afford a house deposit.
Rightly or wrongly we as a society have emphasised the absolute need to get a degree. It’s hardly fair to point the finger at those students who do listen to their elders. Then they leave Skegness 'Uni' with a second in African Mask Making and end up doing the same kind of jobs they would have done anyway but feel cheated and can't afford a house deposit.
The majority do not undertake obscure degrees but in any case the subject is only partially relevant. University used to be there for the benefit of learning a subject that the student really enjoyed. Vocational degrees are not the be all and end all and can end up with a very restricted mindset.
Coolbananas said:
John Locke said:
When the apparently limitless supply of exploitable labour from the EU dries up, employers will have no choice but to offer pay which reflects the real cost of living in Britain, to the benefit of the indigenous, and the immigrants who choose to remain. Not before time; 20 -30 year olds have had a rubbish employment deal over the past 15 - 20 years.
Absolutely! I can't wait to read about the lazy and feckless scroungers who have become so abundant in the decades Post-WW2 thanks to entitled Labour policies now happily getting off their butts and working. And for a decent wage, the cost of which is then passed onto you, the Customer, who will no doubt gladly pay the extra and not whinge one bit about the cost of living having gone up. Good times ahead!
slightlyoldgit said:
Very wrongly, on any given number of level's wrongly and I also have to say I don't agree with the student making the decision having some sort of absolution; everyone that goes to Uni at that point in time that final decision is made is legally an adult and quite capable of making their own decisions.
There were a couple of 17 year olds on my course when I did my first degree back in the 70sChocolateFrog said:
I'm picturing a lot of farmers with faces like slapped arses as they have to contemplate playing reasonable money to people for the hard labour jobs.
I'm sure they'll cry about brits not wanting to do the work.
Without a UK workforce to pick the crops and the UK public not wanting to pay a £ for an onion, what will happen is that we'll end up importing more at low cost from places like Africa and Asia.I'm sure they'll cry about brits not wanting to do the work.
I think that a lot of Brits are work shy created largely by our benefit system and the minimum wage. For a lot of Eastern Europeans in their home countries - you don't work, you can't eat. It's a different mentality and breeds a much stronger work ethic.
ChocolateFrog said:
I'm picturing a lot of farmers with faces like slapped arses as they have to contemplate playing reasonable money to people for the hard labour jobs.
I'm sure they'll cry about brits not wanting to do the work.
A lot will pack up, and we'll import the fruit and veg from Europe, prepacked. I'm sure they'll cry about brits not wanting to do the work.
The customer doesn't care where it comes from, they want low cost.
Sophisticated Sarah said:
I can see why British don’t want to work in pubs/restaurants. It’s very hard work at the busy places, so why bother for minimum wage? Might as well stand around in SportDirect and get commission on your sales and work nicer hours.
Work ethic. The next step in this process should (will be I suspect) ratcheting back benefits.
And then doing so such that those who do not take their work seriously (for the now improved rates) will have it ratcheted back even more.
Yes, we have more in employment than ever before... But I'd see this as sorting out a structural issue in the good times
(I loved working in a pub. Even loved working in a working men's club...rough as, but great fun and learning).
hutchst said:
slightlyoldgit said:
Very wrongly, on any given number of level's wrongly and I also have to say I don't agree with the student making the decision having some sort of absolution; everyone that goes to Uni at that point in time that final decision is made is legally an adult and quite capable of making their own decisions.
There were a couple of 17 year olds on my course when I did my first degree back in the 70sAs the way it works (I think) is that you would be at the very latest 18 by the end of the August of the year you started Uni if you were a very late child of the school year - which FYI I was being late August. With uni terms starting in September / October then you would be 18.
So perhaps to modify the statement somewhat - by the time everyone actually starts Uni (with the year skippers aside) you will be legally an adult.
slightlyoldgit said:
Very wrongly, on any given number of level's wrongly and I also have to say I don't agree with the student making the decision having some sort of absolution; everyone that goes to Uni at that point in time that final decision is made is legally an adult and quite capable of making their own decisions.
I didn’t say absolution did I. I know when I was 17 therefore technically not an adult and making that decision, a significant factor was the emphasis that a degree would guarantee me a career rather than just a job.
We have, unfortunately debased the benefit real apprenticeships.
Nickgnome said:
I’m wondering who will invest in repatriating various manufacturing jobs. You?
Surely we must accept that we cannot compete with low wage economies in certain industries. Better invest in an high skill economy and using the tax take to help with things like the NHS and care.
As too your sons I’m really surprised they cannot get trainee rolls in any number of companies, particularly London based. I’ve no idea what there skillsets are but there is no shortage of opportunities. They may end up flat/house sharing, wherever but it won’t take too long before they would be earning reasonable money. A grad trainee should expect £30k so not too shabby when you are early twenties.
My advice to anyone at a loss right now is to sign up for a free AWS Account, learn Python (loads of good tutorials on youtube), learn about Docker/Kubernetes/Openshift. Anyone with a respectable knowledge of these technologies can get a decent job. Once you've done the entry level developer thing, get proper certification and then you're looking at 70K+. Loads of companies crying out for these skills at the moment. Surely we must accept that we cannot compete with low wage economies in certain industries. Better invest in an high skill economy and using the tax take to help with things like the NHS and care.
As too your sons I’m really surprised they cannot get trainee rolls in any number of companies, particularly London based. I’ve no idea what there skillsets are but there is no shortage of opportunities. They may end up flat/house sharing, wherever but it won’t take too long before they would be earning reasonable money. A grad trainee should expect £30k so not too shabby when you are early twenties.
ChocolateFrog said:
Mrr T said:
Oakey said:
Why do you think Eastern Europeans are so happy to come here and do this mind numbing work for such low pay instead of doing the same job back home?
They do it because the work is really available. Interview today start tomorrow. So they can improve their English, get some money to be able to rent, and look for another and better paying job. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff