High Street chains favouring UK employees

[slightlyoldgit]

Mark Benson said:

(my bold) - And it's this attitude that has brought us to a place where over half our 18 year olds enter higher education with a third of those reporting that they regret having done so.

Also, we're setting the poor buggers up to fail - if you've just 'invested' £40k to do a subject that interested you at 17 but no longer does, it's a lot harder to change tack and start again than if you started an apprenticeship with no debts and 6 months in you realise you'd rather be doing something else.

Agreed, I have one person in my wider team who did a uni degree and has come in on an apprenticeship - as the degree was completely unrelated to the role she is now in. I have had to sit down with her a few times and her Head of Dept and Manager and had a really hard time explaining this to her. As she honestly thinks that she is "worth more" than the other apprentice she is sat next to doing exactly the same with us - simply because she has a degree and all this debt.

It has taken a while but she now really gets that it was an appalling decision on her part and is rapidly becoming a real asset to her team and the business as a whole.

[Lotobear]

slightlyoldgit said:

As someone who has and does on a regular basis employ and interview a lot of candidates in the tech space - I can tell you that those that have come via the modern apprenticeship route and those going through them are on average considerably more skilled, better placed to progress and are the ones in the organisation where I work that have made the most progression.

That is not just "tech folks" either - I can think of and if I poke my head round the corner of my door see - one in particular who exited his apprenticeship 3 years ago and is now leading a team of 20 as a senior manager in the business and on £60k+ a year.

So saying vocational training is somehow inferior to a degree is utter tripe I am afraid!

Yep, utter garbage.

My father was a CEO and had a policy of never employing grads as he considered them 'entitled', lazy and lacking pragmatism. That's not a fast rule of course but the firm was very succesful and grew exponentially so it worked for him.

[Nickgnome]

Mark Benson said:

(my bold) - And it's this attitude that has brought us to a place where over half our 18 year olds enter higher education with a third of those reporting that they regret having done so.

Also, we're setting the poor buggers up to fail - if you've just 'invested' £40k to do a subject that interested you at 17 but no longer does, it's a lot harder to change tack and start again than if you started an apprenticeship with no debts and 6 months in you realise you'd rather be doing something else.

Depends whether you undertake a degree in a career related subject or a subject with which you have a real interest or passion. The latter is better. Furthermore you do not end up £40k in debt after 1 year and whatever the debt is it becomes repayable over a certain income.

[crankedup]

Mrr T said:

Oakey said:

Mrr T said:

How would they commute from that low cost house to the UK every day?

You know he means they're sending that money back home.

They are on minimum wage they would not be sending much money back home.

Our pound is of high value in many of the E.European Countries? Add hat if the workers have young families ‘back home’ they will be claiming benefits and sending that money ‘back home’. Adds up to a fair sum back home, no wonder they were keen to work here.

[yellowjack]

Mrr T said:

ChocolateFrog said:

Mrr T said:

Oakey said:

Why do you think Eastern Europeans are so happy to come here and do this mind numbing work for such low pay instead of doing the same job back home?

They do it because the work is really available. Interview today start tomorrow. So they can improve their English, get some money to be able to rent, and look for another and better paying job.

Or it's because a reasonable house with land in their own country is less than £10k so £10ph on a seasonal basis is comparatively a reasonable income.

How would they commute from that low cost house to the UK every day?

They don't you clown. They live like sardines in (often illegal) HMOs, and send back every spare penny of what they earn. Because the rent is shared by many, all earning, the can more readily afford to rent than a young couple where one or the other needs to stay at home to raise a family in the early years. And it knocks on to skewing the rental market to favour a similar high occupancy shared rent model, against a low occupancy shared rent model. This is often why foreign nationals are able to accept lower wages than indigenous British kids. They simply expect less from their "standard of living" because they have done the maths and can see en end point to the situation. People who want a traditional lifestyle in the UK can't afford the low wages because there is no realistic prospect of earning your way out of the situation in a low paid job, so they don't put themselves into that position in the first place. I haven't worked for 7 years. I've also not claimed a penny in benefits over that same period. I live on an army pension and what my wife earns. i've looked for work, but rarely ever see anything advertised for wages that i would regard as fair or reasonable for the work required from me. Make of that what you will. But I'd clean toilets if the wages made up for the (perceived?) indignity of working with (and in many cases for) turds all day every day. I live near a large hospital. my skills are in logistics, storage, and distribution. I'd love a stores job in the hospital, and am on their mailing list for alerts. I keep getting offered chef jobs, and other stuff I'm not fitted for, like estates stuff, sparkies, carpenters, etc. But not one stores or portering job has come up. Yet my wife, who works there, tells me they're short of porters. Go figure? I've been advised to "put myself on the portering bank" but that isn't an obvious route to anyone applying from outside the NHS. Yet I'm a native English speaker, have pretty decent people skills (outside of PH, obvs), I'm smart, clean, and am used to working long hours and getting no extra for it (overtime is not a concept yet adopted by the military ). I walk my wife over to work every morning, and while most of the staff are equally smart, intelligent, and motivated, there are one or two who I look at and wonder how it is they tie their own shoe laces in the morning. Maybe I ought to sign on? At least that way I'd be a "statistic on a government chart" and they'd be desperate to get rid of me into employment? Not claiming benefits hasn't done my state pension (NI contributions) any good either. I'm not scraping by either. We pay the mortgage, all the bills, we have a modest cushion in savings and have no unsecured debts, but we also have little over at the end of a month (save for an overpayment on the mortgage statement). Surely "the system" would be a lot better off if people like me weren't sitting on their arses typing guff on the internet, or out cycling for 8 hours at a time? They can't tax what I'm not earning, after all, and my pension is under the threshold for paying even the basic rate on it...

[slightlyoldgit]

Nickgnome said:

Mark Benson said:

(my bold) - And it's this attitude that has brought us to a place where over half our 18 year olds enter higher education with a third of those reporting that they regret having done so.

Also, we're setting the poor buggers up to fail - if you've just 'invested' £40k to do a subject that interested you at 17 but no longer does, it's a lot harder to change tack and start again than if you started an apprenticeship with no debts and 6 months in you realise you'd rather be doing something else.

Depends whether you undertake a degree in a career related subject or a subject with which you have a real interest or passion. The latter is better. Furthermore you do not end up £40k in debt after 1 year and whatever the debt is it becomes repayable over a certain income.

And you can just as equally pick an apprenticeship in a subject you like or have a passion for or is career related and come out of the same three years with no debt, a job and a dam good salary and be already on the ladder. Whilst those that chose to do the same at uni have a pile of debt after that three years and are competing for roles with ex apprentices with actual experience - I know who I hire when faced with that choice!

Outside of Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer etc where it is fully understandable - a degree is I am afraid in the modern workplace in a large number of professions, largely a waste of time and money, even to get to the highest levels in that profession in large businesses, unnecessary.

[crankedup]

Nickgnome said:

crankedup said:

Are you assuming that those that we trade with are standing still with wage inflation.

No

Then it makes your statement utterly worthless.

[ChocolateFrog]

Mrr T said:

ChocolateFrog said:

Mrr T said:

Oakey said:

Why do you think Eastern Europeans are so happy to come here and do this mind numbing work for such low pay instead of doing the same job back home?

They do it because the work is really available. Interview today start tomorrow. So they can improve their English, get some money to be able to rent, and look for another and better paying job.

Or it's because a reasonable house with land in their own country is less than £10k so £10ph on a seasonal basis is comparatively a reasonable income.

How would they commute from that low cost house to the UK every day?

They live in a HMO until which point they decide to leave.

As you well know.

[crankedup]

slightlyoldgit said:

Mark Benson said:

(my bold) - And it's this attitude that has brought us to a place where over half our 18 year olds enter higher education with a third of those reporting that they regret having done so.

Also, we're setting the poor buggers up to fail - if you've just 'invested' £40k to do a subject that interested you at 17 but no longer does, it's a lot harder to change tack and start again than if you started an apprenticeship with no debts and 6 months in you realise you'd rather be doing something else.

Agreed, I have one person in my wider team who did a uni degree and has come in on an apprenticeship - as the degree was completely unrelated to the role she is now in. I have had to sit down with her a few times and her Head of Dept and Manager and had a really hard time explaining this to her. As she honestly thinks that she is "worth more" than the other apprentice she is sat next to doing exactly the same with us - simply because she has a degree and all this debt.

It has taken a while but she now really gets that it was an appalling decision on her part and is rapidly becoming a real asset to her team and the business as a whole.

As you both mention, those young people are sold a pup, old people like me have aid that the removal of. proper apprenticeships was a seriously bad idea.It shows now.

[slightlyoldgit]

crankedup said:

slightlyoldgit said:

Mark Benson said:

(my bold) - And it's this attitude that has brought us to a place where over half our 18 year olds enter higher education with a third of those reporting that they regret having done so.

Also, we're setting the poor buggers up to fail - if you've just 'invested' £40k to do a subject that interested you at 17 but no longer does, it's a lot harder to change tack and start again than if you started an apprenticeship with no debts and 6 months in you realise you'd rather be doing something else.

Agreed, I have one person in my wider team who did a uni degree and has come in on an apprenticeship - as the degree was completely unrelated to the role she is now in. I have had to sit down with her a few times and her Head of Dept and Manager and had a really hard time explaining this to her. As she honestly thinks that she is "worth more" than the other apprentice she is sat next to doing exactly the same with us - simply because she has a degree and all this debt.

It has taken a while but she now really gets that it was an appalling decision on her part and is rapidly becoming a real asset to her team and the business as a whole.

As you both mention, those young people are sold a pup, old people like me have aid that the removal of. proper apprenticeships was a seriously bad idea.It shows now.

Very much agreed, the structure of the modern apprenticeships has also come on in leaps and bounds in the last few years and we are a UK AIM Listed PLC and have scrapped our graduate programme and instead now take on between 8-12 (post A'level) apprentices a year across the business in tech, finance, HR and sales & marketing roles and I look around our business today and they are the ones who are flying and are genuinely the future.

[ChocolateFrog]

slightlyoldgit said:

And you can just as equally pick an apprenticeship in a subject you like or have a passion for or is career related and come out of the same three years with no debt, a job and a dam good salary and be already on the ladder. Whilst those that chose to do the same at uni have a pile of debt after that three years and are competing for roles with ex apprentices with actual experience - I know who I hire when faced with that choice!

Outside of Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer etc where it is fully understandable - a degree is I am afraid in the modern workplace in a large number of professions, largely a waste of time and money, even to get to the highest levels in that profession in large businesses, unnecessary.

As an Engineer I would even knock that off the list. My first post grad job I was workin alongside people who were paid the same as me but got to take every Friday off to go to Uni, they came out with the same qualifications and no debt. I felt like a right mug.

Then I left because Engineers are in general chronically underpaid in this country.

[R Mutt]

Murph7355 said:

In the sort of places you refer to... In most places....

£

I suspect the demographics you refer to are more likely driven by your locale than any major cultural aspects. That and the £ people are prepared to accept.

It would make sense that British teens will be OK with zero hours contracts at Sports Direct whereas someone older from Eastern Europe would want something more stable, while both accepting close to minimum wage but I'm note sure how much contract terms would differ between the 2 groups of employers in question.

Maybe it's just as simple as British kids liking trainers and as such will want to work in Sports Direct, while roles in Greggs will be filled by the same demographic, as they are too far removed from the restaurant biz or barista coffee to attract an Eastern European in their 20s.

Still doesn't really explain why there's not a greater crossover though unless there is a very firm minimum a Brit will work for once they have finished school or uni, which Pret or Prezzo simply do not pay.

[Oakey]

Mrr T said:

Oakey said:

Mrr T said:

How would they commute from that low cost house to the UK every day?

You know he means they're sending that money back home.

They are on minimum wage they would not be sending much money back home.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46223217

BBC said:

Migrant workers in the UK, many in low-paid jobs, are sending £8bn a year to support families in their home countries, says a report from the United Nations' education agency.

[Mrr T]

crankedup said:

Mrr T said:

Oakey said:

Mrr T said:

How would they commute from that low cost house to the UK every day?

You know he means they're sending that money back home.

They are on minimum wage they would not be sending much money back home.

Our pound is of high value in many of the E.European Countries? Add hat if the workers have young families ‘back home’ they will be claiming benefits and sending that money ‘back home’. Adds up to a fair sum back home, no wonder they were keen to work here.

Do you live in the real world? Does our pound have a special value because its the British pound. Prices of goods in EE are similar to UK prices except for booze and fags. Wages are lower so some things are cheaper. The country I know best house prices are similar to French country side.

What are these benefits they can claim?

I have known many people in this position and none could claim any benefits other than child benefit.

All the one I know stayed and got better jobs.

[slightlyoldgit]

yellowjack said:

They don't you clown. They live like sardines in (often illegal) HMOs, and send back every spare penny of what they earn. Because the rent is shared by many, all earning, the can more readily afford to rent than a young couple where one or the other needs to stay at home to raise a family in the early years. And it knocks on to skewing the rental market to favour a similar high occupancy shared rent model, against a low occupancy shared rent model. This is often why foreign nationals are able to accept lower wages than indigenous British kids. They simply expect less from their "standard of living" because they have done the maths and can see en end point to the situation. People who want a traditional lifestyle in the UK can't afford the low wages because there is no realistic prospect of earning your way out of the situation in a low paid job, so they don't put themselves into that position in the first place. I haven't worked for 7 years. I've also not claimed a penny in benefits over that same period. I live on an army pension and what my wife earns. i've looked for work, but rarely ever see anything advertised for wages that i would regard as fair or reasonable for the work required from me. Make of that what you will. But I'd clean toilets if the wages made up for the (perceived?) indignity of working with (and in many cases for) turds all day every day. I live near a large hospital. my skills are in logistics, storage, and distribution. I'd love a stores job in the hospital, and am on their mailing list for alerts. I keep getting offered chef jobs, and other stuff I'm not fitted for, like estates stuff, sparkies, carpenters, etc. But not one stores or portering job has come up. Yet my wife, who works there, tells me they're short of porters. Go figure? I've been advised to "put myself on the portering bank" but that isn't an obvious route to anyone applying from outside the NHS. Yet I'm a native English speaker, have pretty decent people skills (outside of PH, obvs), I'm smart, clean, and am used to working long hours and getting no extra for it (overtime is not a concept yet adopted by the military ). I walk my wife over to work every morning, and while most of the staff are equally smart, intelligent, and motivated, there are one or two who I look at and wonder how it is they tie their own shoe laces in the morning. Maybe I ought to sign on? At least that way I'd be a "statistic on a government chart" and they'd be desperate to get rid of me into employment? Not claiming benefits hasn't done my state pension (NI contributions) any good either. I'm not scraping by either. We pay the mortgage, all the bills, we have a modest cushion in savings and have no unsecured debts, but we also have little over at the end of a month (save for an overpayment on the mortgage statement). Surely "the system" would be a lot better off if people like me weren't sitting on their arses typing guff on the internet, or out cycling for 8 hours at a time? They can't tax what I'm not earning, after all, and my pension is under the threshold for paying even the basic rate on it...

Just out of interest have you thought about going via the apprenticeship route to retrain?

I know I am banging on about it a bit but it really does work.

I have a someone in my wider team who was a supervisor for a printing company, worked his way up over 20 years, good job, house, almost grown up kids and his company shut down.

He got a decent redundancy and his wife has a good job and due to a modest inheritance around the same time thankfully had no mortgage left.

So he came into one of the technology teams as an adult apprentice at 43 years old, completed his two year apprenticeship and is now in a £40k a year role and a very happy chap doing something he was always interested in but never thought he would be able to and earning more than he was in his old job. Also, he has 20 years of work left and I can honestly see him getting to a far more senior position than he is now on probably £70k+ a year in his new career.

Ok had to put up with being on £15k for 2 years but he knew it was a means to an end.

[crankedup]

Mrr T said:

crankedup said:

Mrr T said:

Oakey said:

Mrr T said:

How would they commute from that low cost house to the UK every day?

You know he means they're sending that money back home.

They are on minimum wage they would not be sending much money back home.

Our pound is of high value in many of the E.European Countries? Add hat if the workers have young families ‘back home’ they will be claiming benefits and sending that money ‘back home’. Adds up to a fair sum back home, no wonder they were keen to work here.

Do you live in the real world? Does our pound have a special value because its the British pound. Prices of goods in EE are similar to UK prices except for booze and fags. Wages are lower so some things are cheaper. The country I know best house prices are similar to French country side.

What are these benefits they can claim?

I have known many people in this position and none could claim any benefits other than child benefit.

All the one I know stayed and got better jobs.

House values in Bulgaria Poland and such like. just saying .
And it has been widely reported that immigrant EU workers were claiming benefits for their families and send that cash home.The U.K. Government tried to put a stop to it through the Courts a few years back, but failed. Seems it’s you that not in the real World.

[Mrr T]

yellowjack said:

They don't you clown. They live like sardines in (often illegal) HMOs, and send back every spare penny of what they earn. Because the rent is shared by many, all earning, the can more readily afford to rent than a young couple where one or the other needs to stay at home to raise a family in the early years. And it knocks on to skewing the rental market to favour a similar high occupancy shared rent model, against a low occupancy shared rent model. This is often why foreign nationals are able to accept lower wages than indigenous British kids. They simply expect less from their "standard of living" because they have done the maths and can see en end point to the situation. People who want a traditional lifestyle in the UK can't afford the low wages because there is no realistic prospect of earning your way out of the situation in a low paid job, so they don't put themselves into that position in the first place. I haven't worked for 7 years. I've also not claimed a penny in benefits over that same period. I live on an army pension and what my wife earns. i've looked for work, but rarely ever see anything advertised for wages that i would regard as fair or reasonable for the work required from me. Make of that what you will. But I'd clean toilets if the wages made up for the (perceived?) indignity of working with (and in many cases for) turds all day every day. I live near a large hospital. my skills are in logistics, storage, and distribution. I'd love a stores job in the hospital, and am on their mailing list for alerts. I keep getting offered chef jobs, and other stuff I'm not fitted for, like estates stuff, sparkies, carpenters, etc. But not one stores or portering job has come up. Yet my wife, who works there, tells me they're short of porters. Go figure? I've been advised to "put myself on the portering bank" but that isn't an obvious route to anyone applying from outside the NHS. Yet I'm a native English speaker, have pretty decent people skills (outside of PH, obvs), I'm smart, clean, and am used to working long hours and getting no extra for it (overtime is not a concept yet adopted by the military ). I walk my wife over to work every morning, and while most of the staff are equally smart, intelligent, and motivated, there are one or two who I look at and wonder how it is they tie their own shoe laces in the morning. Maybe I ought to sign on? At least that way I'd be a "statistic on a government chart" and they'd be desperate to get rid of me into employment? Not claiming benefits hasn't done my state pension (NI contributions) any good either. I'm not scraping by either. We pay the mortgage, all the bills, we have a modest cushion in savings and have no unsecured debts, but we also have little over at the end of a month (save for an overpayment on the mortgage statement). Surely "the system" would be a lot better off if people like me weren't sitting on their arses typing guff on the internet, or out cycling for 8 hours at a time? They can't tax what I'm not earning, after all, and my pension is under the threshold for paying even the basic rate on it...

Yes we know all EE live in illegal HMO. The Daily Express is clear on that. It's also very clear you know nothing about renting out property and in particular HMO. It seems you are not prepared to do the work EE will do for minium wage. That's your choice but do not assume when the EE stop doing the work wages will rise because that will increase costs and many cannot afford to pay more. So the jobs will just not get filled.

[Sticks.]

crankedup said:

And it has been widely reported that immigrant EU workers were claiming benefits for their families and send that cash home.The U.K. Government tried to put a stop to it through the Courts a few years back, but failed. Seems it’s you that not in the real World.

AIUI (and happy to be corrected if wrong) but EU migrant rules required a job to go to, or financial independence, or a return to the home country after 90 days. But not implemented in the UK when T May was Home Sec. Is that correct?

[Stay in Bed Instead]

One man's wage increase is another man's price increase.

Harold Wilson

[Condi]

crankedup said:

House values in Bulgaria Poland and such like. just saying .
And it has been widely reported that immigrant EU workers were claiming benefits for their families and send that cash home.The U.K. Government tried to put a stop to it through the Courts a few years back, but failed. Seems it’s you that not in the real World.

It might have been 'widely reported' but the truth is less than 0.3% of all child benefit paid in the UK goes abroad, and some of that is to places like Ireland and France.

To believe that we are sending vast quantities of money to Poland and Bulgaria in the form of benefits is simply not true, but makes a good headline for the Daily Mail.