Will China be brought to account?

[jamoor]

fblm said:

jamoor said:

For sure China will push (and possibly succeed) to become independent of any USA technology in just about anything.
....

And just steal/copy any tech they want. Frighteningly they seem to have the advantage in AI effectively owning outright every byte of data of a billion people...

I’ve always wondered if people think that China is the only country that commits industrial espionage, heck weren’t the USA spying on the Germans?

[anonymous-user]

jamoor said:

I’ve always wondered if people think that China is the only country that commits industrial espionage, heck weren’t the USA spying on the Germans?

Of course not. Where national security interests overlap commercial/industrial advances I'm sure there is colusion but China has industrialised industrial espionage; the state and military sponsors many of their big companies so every sector of the economy... healthcare, manufacturing, financial services, scientific research, academia, government... you name it, it's fair game for the Chinese state on behalf of their commercial interests.

[Digga]

fblm said:

jamoor said:

For sure China will push (and possibly succeed) to become independent of any USA technology in just about anything.
....

And just steal/copy any tech they want. Frighteningly they seem to have the advantage in AI effectively owning outright every byte of data of a billion people...

Which, on the whole, is not representative of ROW.

[Ridgemont]

And along with various sanctions the President also removed Hong Kong’s special trade privileges so it is now treated as per mainland China.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/14/donald...

[W12GT]

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jul/15...

So China State media are calling for retaliation on us because of the Huawei ban.

Erm......forgive me if I’m wrong but haven’t they already got in early and done this by killing 45000 of us???

I cannot explain the depth of my hatred for China and everything it represents at present. There are things I’d like to buy at the moment but the items I have found are from China, therefore I am going without. Have to say I’ve never saved so much money in my life...

Edited by W12GT on Wednesday 15th July 08:54

[Condi]

W12GT said:

Erm......forgive me if I’m wrong but haven’t they already got in early and done this by killing 45000 of us???

I don't really understand this argument.

Yes, they were a little slow to start with, although they were dealing with a virus nobody had ever seen before. However, after that they reacted quickly and forcibly shut down an entire region to prevent the spread once they did understand it a bit better.

The UK and US on the other hand had plenty of time to watch what was happening in China, and still didn't take it seriously, then failed to take any decisive measures at the start to either prevent its arrival in the country or clamp down once it was first established.

It seems that the "blame China" rhetoric is a way of deflecting attention away from your own failures which is exactly why Trump is so keen to push that narrative.

Viruses have been mutating since long before humans were around, and with modern travel where you could be from Australia to the UK in less time than it takes for any symptoms to show it's hardly surprising that the virus spread. If anything the biggest surprise is it took 3 months and we still didn't regonise how dangerous it was to certain groups of people.

[GroundZero]

Condi said:

Yes, they were a little slow to start with, although they were dealing with a virus nobody had ever seen before.

Going to have to disagree there as I think this couldn't be further from the truth.

A "little slow" as you put it has cost many countries many lives.
The communist party were deliberately and actively suppressing information about the virus release and its effects, they arrested and silenced anybody who was trying to get the information public in the early number of weeks when doctors were sounding the warning alarms..
They failed to notify the WHO and were more than happy to continue exporting the virus worldwide via international travel.

Their government has been completely despicable in their actions and their complete lack of consideration for international obligations and the health of others.

Airborne SARS viruses are usually started in Asia, China in particular as they have a history of them, and as such they will have know from doctors warnings that this virus was similarly spread via contact and the via air, and should have been on red alert from the first couple of cases. Instead they chose to cover up and also what would appear to be actively supporting its spread globally. Despicable.

The blame for the severity of this pandemic lies solely at the doorstep of the communist party. China as a country and the chinese citizens are not at blame, they are powerless against such a regime.

[Condi]

GroundZero said:

Condi said:

Yes, they were a little slow to start with, although they were dealing with a virus nobody had ever seen before.

Going to have to disagree there as I think this couldn't be further from the truth.

A "little slow" as you put it has cost many countries many lives.
The communist party were deliberately and actively suppressing information about the virus release and its effects, they arrested and silenced anybody who was trying to get the information public in the early number of weeks when doctors were sounding the warning alarms..
They failed to notify the WHO and were more than happy to continue exporting the virus worldwide via international travel.

Their government has been completely despicable in their actions and their complete lack of consideration for international obligations and the health of others.

Airborne SARS viruses are usually started in Asia, China in particular as they have a history of them, and as such they will have know from doctors warnings that this virus was similarly spread via contact and the via air, and should have been on red alert from the first couple of cases. Instead they chose to cover up and also what would appear to be actively supporting its spread globally. Despicable.

The blame for the severity of this pandemic lies solely at the doorstep of the communist party. China as a country and the chinese citizens are not at blame, they are powerless against such a regime.

As opposed to the UK who had plenty of knowledge and time to react but sat back and did little, retaining open borders to all countries around the world and even welcoming 3000 Spanish football fans at a time when parts of Spain were already in lockdown and Italian hospitals were overflowing with patients on ventilators? Even at the height of the pandemic in the UK there was no restriction on travel, so to say that the Chinese were more than happy to keep exporting the virus is ambiguous because we (/the West) were doing exactly the same thing but with 3 months more understanding of its effects!

You can hold China responsible for their early actions in the first few weeks, but beyond that their response was far more robust than most other countries and those in glass houses should not throw stones! It is also interesting that countries closer to China and with much more frequent travel have not suffered in the same way the UK and USA have. If the narrative was simply that China was to blame then most other countries should have been affected equally.

[amusingduck]

Condi said:

As opposed to the UK who had plenty of knowledge and time to react but sat back and did little

Incompetent, but good faith.

As opposed to competent, but bad faith. The difference is stark. Countries' poor response to CV is not a rebuttal of China's deliberate cover-up attempts!

[Condi]

amusingduck said:

Incompetent, but good faith.

As opposed to competent, but bad faith. The difference is stark. Countries' poor response to CV is not a rebuttal of China's deliberate cover-up attempts!

No, but you cannot chastise China for 'exporting the virus around the world', when other countries did exactly the same thing, but with the benefit of far more understanding and appreciation of its effects. Its just a nonsense argument. You've just said that our own countries are incompetent, and I don't believe the worldwide fall out would have been much different had the virus developed here, if anything it could have been worse.

[amusingduck]

Condi said:

amusingduck said:

Incompetent, but good faith.

As opposed to competent, but bad faith. The difference is stark. Countries' poor response to CV is not a rebuttal of China's deliberate cover-up attempts!

No, but you cannot chastise China for 'exporting the virus around the world', when other countries did exactly the same thing, but with the benefit of far more understanding and appreciation of its effects. Its just a nonsense argument. You've just said that our own countries are incompetent, and I don't believe the worldwide fall out would have been much different had the virus developed here, if anything it could have been worse.

I haven't chastised China for exporting the virus.

Why do you think the worldwide fallout would have been same/worse if the virus originated in the UK? It seems a no-brainer to me that the fallout would have been significantly reduced if the virus had originated in a country which does not arrest doctors and journalists for blowing the whistle.

ETA: Also, surely 'fallout' includes the consequences of China destroying any trace of the virus' origins without letting independent parties analyse what happened?

Edited by amusingduck on Wednesday 15th July 10:04

[Condi]

amusingduck said:

I haven't chastised China for exporting the virus.

Why do you think the worldwide fallout would have been same/worse if the virus originated in the UK? It seems a no-brainer to me that the fallout would have been significantly reduced if the virus had originated in a country which does not arrest doctors and journalists for blowing the whistle.

ETA: Also, surely 'fallout' includes the consequences of China destroying any trace of the virus' origins without letting independent parties analyse what happened?

The reply I initially quoted did accuse China of exporting the virus, hence why I challenged that no country has prevented its own citizens going abroad, least of all the UK and USA.

While the UK would not arrest doctors, it also wouldn't have the huge resources available to forcibly shut down an entire city in a matter of days. Neither would the public have accepted that. Also the UK is as international and as mobile (if not more so) than China, and so by the time any action was taken to prevent the spread on the large scale required it would have already been exported across the world.

Why do you think the spread of the virus would have been significantly reduced had it been detected here first? I have no idea what the UK's protocol is for detecting new virus strains and sharing that information, maybe you do? Given as the rest of the UK's response has been pretty incompetent why do you have faith that in the absence of being able to watch other countries we would have done any better without that benefit? Surely if we can't do a good job with the knowledge and experience from China, Italy and Spain, trying to work it out on our own would have resulted in far a far worse outcome.

[vaud]

Condi said:

it also wouldn't have the huge resources available to forcibly shut down an entire city in a matter of days.

With the recent Leicester lockdown, there was some discussion that the govt/police don't actually have the powers to close a city anyway. I'd have to read the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 and others to check.

Edited by vaud on Wednesday 15th July 12:36

[Tuna]

Condi said:

Why do you think the spread of the virus would have been significantly reduced had it been detected here first? I have no idea what the UK's protocol is for detecting new virus strains and sharing that information, maybe you do?

The current understanding of timelines is that China actively withheld information about the virus, and their labs were put in a position where it took weeks, if not months before they were able to release vital research on identifying and tracking the disease.

The argument is that disease research like this is not 'managed' by the state in the West, and information is more freely shared, much quicker.

In the context of Covid, the suggested delay of up to a couple of months is the difference between stopping the initial spread and having to lock down entire countries.

[A Winner Is You]

LBC presenter Maajud Nawaz is going on hunger strike over the persecution of the Uigur muslims

https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/12833294367...

[Blue62]

A Winner Is You said:

LBC presenter Maajud Nawaz is going on hunger strike over the persecution of the Uigur muslims

https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/12833294367...

It’s time their fate was highlighted so applaud his efforts personally. I am astonished how little Muslim countries have done to challenge China, especially when set against their reaction to a few harmless cartoons or The Satanic Verses.

[dukeboy749r]

Blue62 said:

A Winner Is You said:

LBC presenter Maajud Nawaz is going on hunger strike over the persecution of the Uigur muslims

https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/12833294367...

It’s time their fate was highlighted so applaud his efforts personally. I am astonished how little Muslim countries have done to challenge China, especially when set against their reaction to a few harmless cartoons or The Satanic Verses.

This.

In an age where we are now made all too aware of such atrocities, it is to our collective shame that we do not stand up and do more to either prevent, or by our silence condone, such actions

[jamoor]

amusingduck said:

I haven't chastised China for exporting the virus.

Why do you think the worldwide fallout would have been same/worse if the virus originated in the UK? It seems a no-brainer to me that the fallout would have been significantly reduced if the virus had originated in a country which does not arrest doctors and journalists for blowing the whistle.

ETA: Also, surely 'fallout' includes the consequences of China destroying any trace of the virus' origins without letting independent parties analyse what happened?

Edited by amusingduck on Wednesday 15th July 10:04

Come off it, the virus would have spread far quicker if it had originated in the U.K. or even USA.

Look at the infection rates of these two countries vs China (don’t telll me the Chinese figures are wrong as all of the evidence shows they are right)

Essentially China along with korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand etc swiftly and expertly responded to the threat. We simply couldn’t/wouldn’t respond appropriately.


The media and governments really have jumped on the bash China bandwagon about this.

[So]

jamoor said:

amusingduck said:

I haven't chastised China for exporting the virus.

Why do you think the worldwide fallout would have been same/worse if the virus originated in the UK? It seems a no-brainer to me that the fallout would have been significantly reduced if the virus had originated in a country which does not arrest doctors and journalists for blowing the whistle.

ETA: Also, surely 'fallout' includes the consequences of China destroying any trace of the virus' origins without letting independent parties analyse what happened?

Edited by amusingduck on Wednesday 15th July 10:04

Come off it, the virus would have spread far quicker if it had originated in the U.K. or even USA.

Look at the infection rates of these two countries vs China (don’t telll me the Chinese figures are wrong as all of the evidence shows they are right)

Essentially China along with korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand etc swiftly and expertly responded to the threat. We simply couldn’t/wouldn’t respond appropriately.


The media and governments really have jumped on the bash China bandwagon about this.

Do you have the official numbers from China then to prove the them?

I mean, proper official ones, not the ones they hand out promising they are.

China really haven't helped themselves in any of this and as far as i am concerned, they deserve what's coming.

[jamoor]

So said:

Do you have the official numbers from China then to prove the them?

I mean, proper official ones, not the ones they hand out promising they are.

China really haven't helped themselves in any of this and as far as i am concerned, they deserve what's coming.

What evidence do you have to claim that the numbers they say are false?

When you look at their claimed numbers and compare them to surrounding countries they look entirely plausible.

I’d completely be on your side if China claimed 80k cases and in neighbouring Korea and Taiwan claimed 250k plus but this simply isn’t the case
And please don’t tell me the Korean and Taiwanese numbers are false. This pandemic has shown that experience matter and more importantly taking it seriously matters which is exactly what these countries did.

These East Asian countries have the experience on how to deal with these things.