Used valuations for pure EV's
Discussion
The world seems to think differently - this is the current UK market for the same tesla model, variant and year as an example and the price is very milage dependant.
Maybe the broader point is its got something to do with warranty being age and mileage limited, battery degradation, interior wear, obsolecent technology (even on Tesla), bodywork, suspension, model evoluton, design and taste etc.....
Maybe the broader point is its got something to do with warranty being age and mileage limited, battery degradation, interior wear, obsolecent technology (even on Tesla), bodywork, suspension, model evoluton, design and taste etc.....
Battery degradation is the big one, with Leafs it's not hard to tell if the vendor lets you attach an OBD-II dongle but that's a big if.
With Tesla there are a few other things, main one being the limit on rapid charging. Once it's hit there is nothing you can do short of replacing the battery, and again the only way to tell is with an OBD-II dongle.
With Tesla there are a few other things, main one being the limit on rapid charging. Once it's hit there is nothing you can do short of replacing the battery, and again the only way to tell is with an OBD-II dongle.
George Smiley said:
They are binary so either work or don't, the only areas of wear will be the tyres and brakes
As already mentioned you have no idea how abused the battery pack has been. Just because it turns on or shows 300 miles on a dash display has no relation to degredation. Nissan dealers have access to a tool which can 'reset' the battery display to make the car show virtually no degredation but in reality the capacity is down to 70%, or worse - I believe even the OBD tool can be fooled??
Older Tesla battery packs now only charge at 50KW, again you have no way to tell that until you have bought the car and plugged it into a Tesla Supercharger.
I would be very very cautious of buying any used EV, I have no idea why used EV residuals remain high despite the lack of guarantee related battery pack performance.
aestetix1 said:
Battery degradation is the big one, with Leafs it's not hard to tell if the vendor lets you attach an OBD-II dongle but that's a big if.
With Tesla there are a few other things, main one being the limit on rapid charging. Once it's hit there is nothing you can do short of replacing the battery, and again the only way to tell is with an OBD-II dongle.
There is no limit on rapid charging on ccs2 it was one chap who fWith Tesla there are a few other things, main one being the limit on rapid charging. Once it's hit there is nothing you can do short of replacing the battery, and again the only way to tell is with an OBD-II dongle.
ked about on chademo George Smiley said:
aestetix1 said:
Battery degradation is the big one, with Leafs it's not hard to tell if the vendor lets you attach an OBD-II dongle but that's a big if.
With Tesla there are a few other things, main one being the limit on rapid charging. Once it's hit there is nothing you can do short of replacing the battery, and again the only way to tell is with an OBD-II dongle.
There is no limit on rapid charging on ccs2 it was one chap who fWith Tesla there are a few other things, main one being the limit on rapid charging. Once it's hit there is nothing you can do short of replacing the battery, and again the only way to tell is with an OBD-II dongle.
ked about on chademo I know thats a few years old now, but I'd not heard any different ? Supercharging rate limited after so many supercharging events. I am sure things have improved since (and AIUI the supercharger is not supposed to be used as the sole means of charging, its more of a every now and then, so most shouldn't be racking up big supercharging numbers).
ETA.. I believe that references the guy you talk about also. But there is comment from tesla).
and Bjorn...
https://insideevs.com/news/396502/video-tesla-mode...
Though I am not sure that has anything to do with the battery condition and more to do with using the service too much.
I think Tesla say it is not detrimental to the battery, but I suspect that will be qualified with an "expected use" as in, its not a routine thing, but occasional supercharging to get your long journey done is fine, but multiple supercharging instances every day might take its toll?
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 15th July 12:53
George Smiley said:
aestetix1 said:
Battery degradation is the big one, with Leafs it's not hard to tell if the vendor lets you attach an OBD-II dongle but that's a big if.
With Tesla there are a few other things, main one being the limit on rapid charging. Once it's hit there is nothing you can do short of replacing the battery, and again the only way to tell is with an OBD-II dongle.
There is no limit on rapid charging on ccs2 it was one chap who fWith Tesla there are a few other things, main one being the limit on rapid charging. Once it's hit there is nothing you can do short of replacing the battery, and again the only way to tell is with an OBD-II dongle.
ked about on chademo The issue is DC charging and why Chademo with a limit of 50kw is able to do more harm than supercharging continually is a mystery. Can you offer any explanation of how Chademo can cause the problem?
Otispunkmeyer said:
Though I am not sure that has anything to do with the battery condition and more to do with using the service too much.
I think Tesla say it is not detrimental to the battery, but I suspect that will be qualified with an "expected use" as in, its not a routine thing, but occasional supercharging to get your long journey done is fine, but multiple supercharging instances every day might take its toll?
It has everything to do with battery condition, there is a 12K+ thread about it over TMC. Sadly the only one, maybe 2 individuals outside Tesla who knows the facts about going on with regards to rapid charging, battery degradation, thermal run-away have now effectively been silenced by Tesla legal teams. I think Tesla say it is not detrimental to the battery, but I suspect that will be qualified with an "expected use" as in, its not a routine thing, but occasional supercharging to get your long journey done is fine, but multiple supercharging instances every day might take its toll?
Tesla is however the only brand whos EVs are subjected to such regular rapid charging strain, so its likely every single EV battery pack is adversely effected by rapid charging but so few other EVs are rapid charged at present no one else faces the same customer reaction as Tesla.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/sudden-los...
DrJFoster said:
George Smiley said:
aestetix1 said:
Battery degradation is the big one, with Leafs it's not hard to tell if the vendor lets you attach an OBD-II dongle but that's a big if.
With Tesla there are a few other things, main one being the limit on rapid charging. Once it's hit there is nothing you can do short of replacing the battery, and again the only way to tell is with an OBD-II dongle.
There is no limit on rapid charging on ccs2 it was one chap who fWith Tesla there are a few other things, main one being the limit on rapid charging. Once it's hit there is nothing you can do short of replacing the battery, and again the only way to tell is with an OBD-II dongle.
ked about on chademo The issue is DC charging and why Chademo with a limit of 50kw is able to do more harm than supercharging continually is a mystery. Can you offer any explanation of how Chademo can cause the problem?
George Smiley said:
The whole limitation story was started by one chap that continuously abused chademo on his old model s, the ccs2 standard with new bmc means there is no harm or risk from 100% supercharging, it is now down to if you abuse that then tesla could choose to limit you (I guess thats less of a risk on the 3 where you have to pay for supercharging anyway)
I'm not sure if you have any idea what you are actually talking about???Here is a Model S loaner I had charging at 24kWh Nissan Leaf speeds. So unless everysingle person before me hocked up this car to a CHADEMO charger, can you explain why it was charging so slowly on an empty Tesla SuperCharger? Why would Tesla limit the Supercharger speed on their own loan car??
24kWh Leaf charging speed at 70% SOC is about the same as a used Tesla on a Supercharger. This was after letting the battery heat up and adding 14kWh of energy, the starting charge rate was even lower at around 25KW!!
https://insideevs.com/news/338777/lets-look-at-fas...
Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 15th July 15:18
aestetix1 said:
No it's all DC charging. CCS, Tesla, CHAdeMO via adapter. It can go as low as 15kW maximum speed from what people have been reporting.
15KW!!! That's slower than AC, you might as well take the pedal bike.The whole industry push for 200-300KW charging is an absolute joke. Rapid charging kills batteries, getting a grid supply for these chargers incredibly difficult, and hardly anyone actually pays to use them as home charging cost so little in comparison.
Its like people picking cars to drive around in central London because they can 0-60 in 2.5 seconds instead of 3.1 seconds
.Heres Johnny said:
The world seems to think differently
I rather suspect this is because in the 1st world, our cars are status symbols first, and a means of transport second!This will change. As more people lease their car rather than own it, as more people decide to car share or use a "car pool", as more people realise that spending tens of thousands of pounds on an object that is parked, depreciating, for 98% of it's life is really pretty silly.
It will also become normal to assess battery condition before buying an EV as it is to open the bonnet and listen for any nasty knocks or take off the rad cap and look for signs of a knackered head gasket. Personally, i'd never buy an EV with more than 50k miles if the owner refused to let me read the SoC from the BMS, i'd just walk away and go look at one where the owner let me read the value! Like if you went to look at a ICE car and said can you start the engine the owner said "er, nope" you'd run for the hills sharpish and rightly so :-)
gangzoom said:
The whole industry push for 200-300KW charging is an absolute joke. Rapid charging kills batteries, getting a grid supply for these chargers incredibly difficult, and hardly anyone actually pays to use them as home charging cost so little in comparison.
Its like people picking cars to drive around in central London because they can 0-60 in 2.5 seconds instead of 3.1 seconds.
Totally agree, it's the next number that all the manufacturers have jumped on, as bigger number is better and more people will understand.Its like people picking cars to drive around in central London because they can 0-60 in 2.5 seconds instead of 3.1 seconds
.phil4 said:
Totally agree, it's the next number that all the manufacturers have jumped on, as bigger number is better and more people will understand.
Kia and Hyundai had the right idea. Get the price down, massive battery and range, fast charging, decent interior and tech, don't worry about the 0-60.I think high speed charging has its place.
The most common usecase for a car, at least in the UK, seems to be to drive 10-20 miles a day for commuting, school runs, shopping trips, etc. with the occasional much longer run to visit family or go on holiday. Those longer runs, which most people will only do once or twice a year, will be made significantly more convenient by faster chargers and charging at 150kW or whatever once or twice a year isn't going to have a very large effect on battery life.
What manufacturers do to stop people charging at those sorts of rates more frequently and killing the battery, I don't know. Possibly we'll see fast-charge limits on the warranty in the same way that today we have mileage limits?
I also think there's a large degree of overcoming public resistance to change; essentially making EVs behave more like ICE cars until people realise that actually on-the-go fast charging is very much the exception rather than the norm.
The most common usecase for a car, at least in the UK, seems to be to drive 10-20 miles a day for commuting, school runs, shopping trips, etc. with the occasional much longer run to visit family or go on holiday. Those longer runs, which most people will only do once or twice a year, will be made significantly more convenient by faster chargers and charging at 150kW or whatever once or twice a year isn't going to have a very large effect on battery life.
What manufacturers do to stop people charging at those sorts of rates more frequently and killing the battery, I don't know. Possibly we'll see fast-charge limits on the warranty in the same way that today we have mileage limits?
I also think there's a large degree of overcoming public resistance to change; essentially making EVs behave more like ICE cars until people realise that actually on-the-go fast charging is very much the exception rather than the norm.
Edited by kambites on Friday 17th July 07:33
kambites said:
I think high speed charging has its place.
The most common usecase for a car, at least in the UK, seems to be to drive 10-20 miles a day for commuting, school runs, shopping trips, etc. with the occasional much longer run to visit family or go on holiday. Those longer runs, which most people will only do once or twice a year, will be made significantly more convenient by faster chargers and charging at 150kW or whatever once or twice a year isn't going to have a very large effect on battery life.
What manufacturers do to stop people charging at those sorts of rates more frequently and killing the battery, I don't know. Possibly we'll see fast-charge limits on the warranty in the same way that today we have mileage limits?
I also think there's a large degree of overcoming public resistance to change; essentially making EVs behave more like ICE cars until people realise that actually on-the-go fast charging is very much the exception rather than the norm.
I've been commuting (before the lock down), approx 100 miles/day since 2018.The most common usecase for a car, at least in the UK, seems to be to drive 10-20 miles a day for commuting, school runs, shopping trips, etc. with the occasional much longer run to visit family or go on holiday. Those longer runs, which most people will only do once or twice a year, will be made significantly more convenient by faster chargers and charging at 150kW or whatever once or twice a year isn't going to have a very large effect on battery life.
What manufacturers do to stop people charging at those sorts of rates more frequently and killing the battery, I don't know. Possibly we'll see fast-charge limits on the warranty in the same way that today we have mileage limits?
I also think there's a large degree of overcoming public resistance to change; essentially making EVs behave more like ICE cars until people realise that actually on-the-go fast charging is very much the exception rather than the norm.
Edited by kambites on Friday 17th July 07:33
I've never needed a fast charge en route as I'm charging every evening at home.
I'm on my second i3 but cant say I've noticed a drop in range except for the winter drop.
kambites said:
I also think there's a large degree of overcoming public resistance to change; essentially making EVs behave more like ICE cars until people realise that actually on-the-go fast charging is very much the exception rather than the norm.
Over the past few months I've spoken to a few people about EV's, colleagues and family... and the interesting bit is they try and rationalise/fit the EV into an ICE world. For example, a really common reply is "But there are no EV chargers near me". This coming from someone who would charge at home in an EV world and so have a fully charged car sat at home waiting. I explain that and that they really need chargers 150-200-250 miles away on their route. They're using the ICE model of going to petrol station to fill up, and completely overlooking that they can do that at home.The other common one is "but it'll take 17 hours to charge it up at 3kw, how do I get fast charging at home?". And of course there you're using the ICE model of near running it empty and then filling it up, rather than as above, topping it up at home every day. They've overlooked the fact that very rarely will they ever need to charge it from 0%, and if they do, it'll likely be on route to somewhere, and so using a faster public charger.
It's the way people have become ingrained with ICE behaviour and moreover thinking that presents a hurdle. Allow people to see past that, and EV's suddenly make sense and aren't a problem.
Oddly it also presents an opportunity, as almost all EVs from mainstream manufacturers still require "servicing", and with the labour rate so high, it's not far off the price of petrol cars. The reality when you look at it is that it's literally a walk around, top up the washer fluid, check the tyre pressure and tread, and if you're lucky a brake fluid change. The opportunity part is that the dealerships make the most of the ICE thinking as above, and so get little resistance from the public.
kambites said:
I think high speed charging has its place.
The most common usecase for a car, at least in the UK, seems to be to drive 10-20 miles a day for commuting, school runs, shopping trips, etc. with the occasional much longer run to visit family or go on holiday. Those longer runs, which most people will only do once or twice a year, will be made significantly more convenient by faster chargers and charging at 150kW or whatever once or twice a year isn't going to have a very large effect on battery life.
What manufacturers do to stop people charging at those sorts of rates more frequently and killing the battery, I don't know. Possibly we'll see fast-charge limits on the warranty in the same way that today we have mileage limits?
I also think there's a large degree of overcoming public resistance to change; essentially making EVs behave more like ICE cars until people realise that actually on-the-go fast charging is very much the exception rather than the norm.
This.The most common usecase for a car, at least in the UK, seems to be to drive 10-20 miles a day for commuting, school runs, shopping trips, etc. with the occasional much longer run to visit family or go on holiday. Those longer runs, which most people will only do once or twice a year, will be made significantly more convenient by faster chargers and charging at 150kW or whatever once or twice a year isn't going to have a very large effect on battery life.
What manufacturers do to stop people charging at those sorts of rates more frequently and killing the battery, I don't know. Possibly we'll see fast-charge limits on the warranty in the same way that today we have mileage limits?
I also think there's a large degree of overcoming public resistance to change; essentially making EVs behave more like ICE cars until people realise that actually on-the-go fast charging is very much the exception rather than the norm.
Edited by kambites on Friday 17th July 07:33
We've run 2 EV's over the last 18 months and covered a total of about 20k miles in them in that time (even with lockdown) so a lot more than average UK mileage. I can count on one hand the number of times we've needed to public charge.
Early Model S/X will have the biggest issues due to free supercharging and the likelihood they were bought to cover big mileages. Not going to see that with the more budget end or even the Model 3 so personally believe it's a problem people are hyping up.
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