Sir Ed Davey - Lib. Dem Leader
Discussion
ATG said:
Claiming the Lib Dems aren't liberal or democratic is pretty silly. Their stance after the Brexit vote was 100% democratic. At no point were they suggesting doing anything without getting a democratic mandate first. Given the referendum gave no indication of what kind of Brexit people wanted it was entirely reasonable to seek to get a confirmation from the public. And to say "if you elect us, we'll cancel Brexit" is also entirely democratically reasonable; had the public elected them, that would have been a clear mandate to reverse the referendum. And they obviously didn't say "Brexit voters are thick racists". What they did say was that the official Brexit campaign lied continuously and clearly sought to mislead rather than inform.
Quite right.They didn't do everything right, but then again the current Tory government haven't been exactly impressive, including in the shambolic leaving of the EU.
ATG said:
Claiming the Lib Dems aren't liberal or democratic is pretty silly.
The impression they give is far from liberal, they're control freaks in many ways, particularly over lifestyle choices. Democrat is largely a political Barnum statement, meaningless as a main Party label, as only people like McDonnell in Labour promote insurrection and overthrow of a government without a vote.On that point do you recall when LibDem Party members endorsed revoking Article 50 without a referendum? Promoting the overturn of a democratic decision - they know best (joke)..
They pledged to allow local authorities to hike council tax by 500% for owners of second properties, out-Labouring Labour and not for the first time.
LibDems have a liking for emissions based parking charges, taxing a vehicle when it's not moving and not polluting, as though motoring doesn't have enough taxes attached already.
Their alternative modes can be a joke, usually expensive. Try an online search for LibDem Noddy Train.
LibDems may get votes including protest votes in tractor territories, but fortunately for the most part they're irrelevant.
turbobloke said:
The impression they give is far from liberal, they're control freaks in many ways, particularly over lifestyle choices. Democrat is largely a political Barnum statement, meaningless as a main Party label, as only people like McDonnell in Labour promote insurrection and overthrow of a government without a vote.
What lifestyle choices would that be? Do explain.turbobloke said:
On that point do you recall when LibDem Party members endorsed revoking Article 50 without a referendum? Promoting the overturn of a democratic decision - they know best (joke)..
And what exactly is undemocratic about saying “vote for us and we will do X.” That, surely, is the very essence of democracy? Is it because you don’t like the policy by any chance?turbobloke said:
They pledged to allow local authorities to hike council tax by 500% for owners of second properties, out-Labouring Labour and not for the first time.
So? I thought we were full with crumbling infrastructure. Surely anyone claiming we don’t have enough housing or infrastructure should be onboard with addressing this.turbobloke said:
On that point do you recall when LibDem Party members endorsed revoking Article 50 without a referendum? Promoting the overturn of a democratic decision - they know best (joke)..
"If you vote for us in a General Election we will revoke Article 50" seems a very clear position even if you don't agree with it.Presumably you didn't vote for them and nor did lots of other people so they didn't get to do what they promised they would if enough people did.
Seems pretty democratic to me.
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: "If you vote for us in a General Election we will revoke Article 50" seems a very clear position even if you don't agree with it.
Presumably you didn't vote for them and nor did lots of other people so they didn't get to do what they promised they would if enough people did.
Seems pretty democratic to me.
Does it seem democratic to you to ask the same question multiple times of an electorate and only enact the answers you want to hear?Presumably you didn't vote for them and nor did lots of other people so they didn't get to do what they promised they would if enough people did.
Seems pretty democratic to me.
768 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: "If you vote for us in a General Election we will revoke Article 50" seems a very clear position even if you don't agree with it.
Presumably you didn't vote for them and nor did lots of other people so they didn't get to do what they promised they would if enough people did.
Seems pretty democratic to me.
Does it seem democratic to you to ask the same question multiple times of an electorate and only enact the answers you want to hear?Presumably you didn't vote for them and nor did lots of other people so they didn't get to do what they promised they would if enough people did.
Seems pretty democratic to me.
Exactly! the liberals must stop using the word `democrats' in their title, because they have proven to the electorate in 2016, that they dont believe in democracy, when democracy does not come up with the result `they' wanted.
If they ever got into power they would just ignore any votes `they' did not like. They and some others, even whined about stopping having democratic votes on matters in the future.
768 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: "If you vote for us in a General Election we will revoke Article 50" seems a very clear position even if you don't agree with it.
Presumably you didn't vote for them and nor did lots of other people so they didn't get to do what they promised they would if enough people did.
Seems pretty democratic to me.
Does it seem democratic to you to ask the same question multiple times of an electorate and only enact the answers you want to hear?Presumably you didn't vote for them and nor did lots of other people so they didn't get to do what they promised they would if enough people did.
Seems pretty democratic to me.
LD claimed that the parameters of the Brexit referendum where not clear, (we Leave or Remain, it couldn’t be any clearer), so would they have pursued the same policy if the vote had swung the other way???? I think we all know the answer to that one.
Democracy isn’t about running the same vote over and over until you get the answer that you want. That isn’t democracy. That’s a sham. Anyone who tries to argue differently either doesn’t understand what democracy really is, or they aren’t in favour of democracy in the first place.
The problem with democracy is that sometimes you don’t get the result that you want. Democracy that only works one way, no matter what, isn’t democracy. It’s autocracy.
MC Bodge said:
It is great news that the Lib Dems are attracting the ire of fist-shaking PH right wingers again.
They must be doing something right.
Maybe, under the deluded Johnson, Tory majorities are set to tumble everywhere?
Here we go with the same old bThey must be doing something right.
Maybe, under the deluded Johnson, Tory majorities are set to tumble everywhere?
ks once again. Anyone who doesn’t agree with your position is automatically a right-winger 
Some of my political beliefs, especially on social issues, are pretty left leaning, but because I believe in true democracy I’m a swivel eyed right wing nut job?
Have you ever considered that you’re not quite as liberal as you like to think you are?
MC Bodge said:
It is great news that the Lib Dems are attracting the ire of fist-shaking PH right wingers again.
They must be doing something right.
Maybe, under the deluded Johnson, Tory majorities are set to tumble everywhere?
Yep, I think a few are getting worried that the LDs may be king makers in getting Labour over the line come the next GE.They must be doing something right.
Maybe, under the deluded Johnson, Tory majorities are set to tumble everywhere?
Would only take some tactical voting in a few marginals and it’ll be bye, bye Tories.
With recent performances and a lame duck leader you can see why the Tories are worried.
105.4 said:
MC Bodge said:
It is great news that the Lib Dems are attracting the ire of fist-shaking PH right wingers again.
They must be doing something right.
Maybe, under the deluded Johnson, Tory majorities are set to tumble everywhere?
Here we go with the same old bThey must be doing something right.
Maybe, under the deluded Johnson, Tory majorities are set to tumble everywhere?
ks once again. Anyone who doesn’t agree with your position is automatically a right-winger Some of my political beliefs, especially on social issues, are pretty left leaning, but because I believe in true democracy I’m a swivel eyed right wing nut job?
Have you ever considered that you’re not quite as liberal as you like to think you are?
valiant said:
MC Bodge said:
It is great news that the Lib Dems are attracting the ire of fist-shaking PH right wingers again.
They must be doing something right.
Maybe, under the deluded Johnson, Tory majorities are set to tumble everywhere?
Yep, I think a few are getting worried that the LDs may be king makers in getting Labour over the line come the next GE.They must be doing something right.
Maybe, under the deluded Johnson, Tory majorities are set to tumble everywhere?
Would only take some tactical voting in a few marginals and it’ll be bye, bye Tories.
With recent performances and a lame duck leader you can see why the Tories are worried.
I can't imagine that many people are happy with the incumbent PM and his shockingly poor government, no matter what colour his rosette.
Many people are rightly disgusted with Johnson. and feel that he should go.
They also know however, that bad as it is, the only available alternatives to a tory (not Johnson) government are truly dire.
Getting rid of the captain, is the logical thing to do, but scrapping the ship because of what the `captain' did is not.
Especially when `all' that is on offer as alternatives is a scruffy, smelly ,down market trawler, with a few red banners draped over it, to hide what it `really' is, or worse still, opt for a tiny, unreliable yellow flag waving rowing boat, that cannot even put to sea, without sinking.
They also know however, that bad as it is, the only available alternatives to a tory (not Johnson) government are truly dire.
Getting rid of the captain, is the logical thing to do, but scrapping the ship because of what the `captain' did is not.
Especially when `all' that is on offer as alternatives is a scruffy, smelly ,down market trawler, with a few red banners draped over it, to hide what it `really' is, or worse still, opt for a tiny, unreliable yellow flag waving rowing boat, that cannot even put to sea, without sinking.
valiant said:
Yep, I think a few are getting worried that the LDs may be king makers in getting Labour over the line come the next GE.
Would only take some tactical voting in a few marginals and it’ll be bye, bye Tories.
With recent performances and a lame duck leader you can see why the Tories are worried.
That's true, of course, but you can turn it around; the thought of enabling a Lib/Lab coalition might galvanise Tory voters who would otherwise stay at home.Would only take some tactical voting in a few marginals and it’ll be bye, bye Tories.
With recent performances and a lame duck leader you can see why the Tories are worried.
The message to those (and I'm one of them) who disapprove of Boris could be: "Careful what you wish for. If you don't vote Conservative, you might allow Labour in as a coalition with the LibDems or the SNP [shudder]."
Still, there's a long way to go given that the next GE will probably be around December 2024. 30 months is a looooong time in politics.
MC Bodge said:
If it doesn't apply to you, then why are you upset by it?
It does apply to me. This falsehood, (that true democracy is a right wing position), applies to me, to you, and to everyone else.More and more I’m hearing an alarming amount of people trot out the same rubbish, so my comments are not directed solely at you.
True democracy is a right wing position.
Freedom of speech is a right wing position.
Belief in biological facts is a right wing position.
A desire for politicians to be accountable is a right wing position.
Concern about a reduction in our civil liberties is a right wing position.
Scepticism of the media is a right wing position.
Reigning in the control of big business is a right wing position.
A desire for small Government is a right wing position.
None of the above are “right-wing”. If anything they’re all liberal beliefs.
768 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: "If you vote for us in a General Election we will revoke Article 50" seems a very clear position even if you don't agree with it.
Presumably you didn't vote for them and nor did lots of other people so they didn't get to do what they promised they would if enough people did.
Seems pretty democratic to me.
Does it seem democratic to you to ask the same question multiple times of an electorate and only enact the answers you want to hear?Presumably you didn't vote for them and nor did lots of other people so they didn't get to do what they promised they would if enough people did.
Seems pretty democratic to me.
If any party had run on a clear manifesto of "vote for us and we'll rejoin the EU" and won a majority that would have been a democratic mandate to rejoin the EU in my view.
I'm really not sure how it's any different to the next General Election when all sorts will be on the table (though probably not EU related) and people will cast their vote accordingly.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Whether you agree with union funding I think there's probably an argument that at least you know why it's there and where it came from isn't there?
One of the Conservatives biggest donors is the wife of one of Putin's former ministers.
Barry Gardiner had half a million donated by a kindly Chinese benefactor and didn't seem to think to ask why.
Political funding seems to get murky very quickly and personally I'd have them all wear bloody big badges on their suits like snooker players showing who's paying for them.
Ed Davy also received money from the same 'kindly Chinese benefactor' when he was energy secretary.One of the Conservatives biggest donors is the wife of one of Putin's former ministers.
Barry Gardiner had half a million donated by a kindly Chinese benefactor and didn't seem to think to ask why.
Political funding seems to get murky very quickly and personally I'd have them all wear bloody big badges on their suits like snooker players showing who's paying for them.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: People can change their mind in a democracy.
If any party had run on a clear manifesto of "vote for us and we'll rejoin the EU" and won a majority that would have been a democratic mandate to rejoin the EU in my view.
I'm really not sure how it's any different to the next General Election when all sorts will be on the table (though probably not EU related) and people will cast their vote accordingly.
General elections are general. I think it is somewhat established that such major constitutional changes require a direct popular mandate. If any party had run on a clear manifesto of "vote for us and we'll rejoin the EU" and won a majority that would have been a democratic mandate to rejoin the EU in my view.
I'm really not sure how it's any different to the next General Election when all sorts will be on the table (though probably not EU related) and people will cast their vote accordingly.
Supposing a party got elected with an apparently sensible manifesto, but also dropped in that they would abolish further elections or ban opposition parties. This could not be construed as democratic just because people had the option not to vote for it. Democracy implies certain rules of engagement. Restraints on what an elected government can do. They aren't written down in this country but established by custom.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: If any party had run on a clear manifesto of "vote for us and we'll rejoin the EU" and won a majority that would have been a democratic mandate to rejoin the EU in my view.
Not a couple of years after a national referendum it isn't. Especially as the number of votes a winning party will get is likely to be lower than the 17m.Seems many voters also took the same view looking at the 2017 and 2019 LD performance.
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