If masks become compulsory in shops (Vol. 2)

If masks become compulsory in shops (Vol. 2)

Author
Discussion

320d is all you need

1,482 posts

6 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
There are other studies on masks

pdmj.org

There are no studies anywhere in the world which show masks reduce spread/infection rates

In Fact I believe in over 90% of countries were masks were mandated, cases rose very quickly after this implementation.


Landcrab_Six

2,222 posts

5 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
320d is all you need said:
There are other studies on masks

pdmj.org

There are no studies anywhere in the world which show masks reduce spread/infection rates

In Fact I believe in over 90% of countries were masks were mandated, cases rose very quickly after this implementation.
bedwetters said:
Just imagine how bad it would have been without masks. You're killing my granny!

thedugmaster

1,494 posts

122 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
I now only wear one about 50% of the time when in shops and that ratio is dropping on a weekly basis.

WinstonWolf

72,812 posts

202 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
320d is all you need said:
There are other studies on masks

pdmj.org

There are no studies anywhere in the world which show masks reduce spread/infection rates

In Fact I believe in over 90% of countries were masks were mandated, cases rose very quickly after this implementation.
See Peru. Not only masks but visors on top for good measure...

chris56

460 posts

142 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
Please see my comments in line

rich888 said:
chris56 said:
rich888 said:
Take a read at this article to better understand how the virus behaves when it touches a mask.
https://www.aier.org/article/the-year-of-disguises...
The article is from the website of the AIER hardly a well known scientific research institute - AIER stands for American Institute for Economic Research and their headquarters are in Great Barrington (there is a clue here). The article is really an opinion piece from a Chemist - it has not been peer reviewed or validated in any way.
Could I suggest you do some more investigating possibly concentrating on scientific studies from recognised centres of excellence and read those to get a more informed perspective.

Edited by chris56 on Sunday 29th November 20:19
Thanks for clarifying the credentials of the website and author of the article in question, and I appreciate that you've only made three or four posts on PH recently, mainly trying to discredit people, but could I also suggest that you refrain from posting on here telling folks they are wearing a fake watch, when it's quite obvious that it's genuine one.

Anyway, back to the subject in hand.

The 'chemist' you are trying hard to discredit is Roger W. Koops who holds a Ph.D. in Chemistry from the University of California, Riverside, as well as Master and Bachelor degrees from Western Washington University. He worked in the Pharmaceutical and Biotechnology Industry for over 25 years.

Before retiring in 2017, he spent 12 years as a Consultant focused on Quality Assurance/Control and issues related to Regulatory Compliance.

He has authored or co-authored several papers in the areas of pharmaceutical technology and chemistry.

Apologies for taking some time to respond - I have a full time job to do so have other priorities to deal with other than posting on Pistonheads.

This is what AIER describe him as but it would appear his expertise is more related to the petrochemical industry.(see below)
I have made no attempts to discredit him - he clearly is an experienced chemist with it would appear experience in the petro-chemical business

Now if you had bothered to read the article in question you will realise that he has quite a lot of experience and knowledge with regard to the wearing of masks, though having read your previous post you made a few days ago when you were trying to discredit Dr Mike Yeadon, Gupta, and Dr. Roger Hodkinson, you seem to contribute very little of value to the forum.


I read the article in full and it is an opinion piece with no reference to any scientific studies to back up any of the statements he makes. If you had perhaps bothered to do more research on Roger Koops (who was paid by AIER to write this article) rather than believing what AIER describe him as , you would see he has three research papers he co-authored. They all seem to involve subjects related to the petro-chemical industry rather than pharmaceutical or biotechnology.

In the meantime, you do seem to be very critical of the above article, apparently choosing to read scientific studies from recognised centres of excellence, so please do provide links to these scientific studies from highly regarded centres of excellence, so that I can read those to get a more informed perspective on the benefits of wearing a mask.


Anyhow you asked for links to scientific studies on masks here are links to 70 studies which are all research studies

1/70"Visualizing the effectiveness of face masks in obstructing respiratory jets," Verma et al., June 30 2020, Phys Fluids:   https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/5.001601...
2/70"Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US" Lyu et al., June 16 2020, Health Affairs:   https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff....
3/70"Association of country-wide coronavirus mortality with demographics, testing, lockdowns, and public wearing of masks" Leffler et al., June 15 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.22...
4/70"Identifying airborne transmission as the dominant route for the spread of COVID-19" Zhang et al., June 11 2020, PNAS:    https://www.pnas.org/content/117/26/14857
5/70"A modelling framework to assess the likely effectiveness of facemasks in combination with ‘lock-down’ in managing the COVID-19 pandemic" Stutt et al., June 10 2020, Proc. R. Soc. A.:   https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsp...
6/70META: "Physical distancing, face masks, and eye protection to prevent person-to-person transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis," June 1 2020, Lancet:   https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/...
7/70"Face coverings for the public: Laying straw men to rest" Greenhalgh, May 26 2020, Journal of Evaluation of Clinical Practice:   https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j...
8/70"COVID-19 and the Social Distancing Paradox: dangers and solutions" Marchiori, May 26 2020, arXiv:    https://arxiv.org/pdf/2005.12446.pdf
9/70"Cloth Masks May Prevent Transmission of COVID-19: An Evidence-Based, Risk-Based Approach," Clase et al., May 22 2020, An of Int Med.:    https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-2567
10/70"Quantitative Method for Comparative Assessment of Particle Filtration Efficiency of Fabric Masks as Alternatives to Standard Surgical Masks for PPE" Mueller et al., May 18 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.17...
11/70"Reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in households by face mask use, disinfection and social distancing: a cohort study in Beijing, China" Wang et al., May 11 2020, BMJ Global Health:   https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/5/5/e002794.full....
12/70"The flow physics of COVID-19" Mittal et al., May 1 2020, J. Fluid Mech.:   https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambri...
13/70"Aerosol Filtration Efficiency of Common Fabrics Used in Respiratory Cloth Masks" Konda et al., ACS Nano, April 24 2020:   https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252
14/70"Epidemiological characteristics of COVID-19 in medical staff members of neurosurgery departments in Hubei province: A multicentre descriptive study," Wang et al., Apr 24 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.20...
15/70"A rapid systematic review of the efficacy of face masks and respirators against coronaviruses and other respiratory transmissible..." MacIntyre et al., Apr 21 2020, Int J Nursing Studies:    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/...
16/70"Universal Masking is Urgent in the COVID-19 Pandemic: SEIR and Agent Based Models, Empirical Validation, Policy Recommendations," Kai et al., Apr 21 2020, arXiv:    https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf
17/70"Assessment of Fabric Masks as Alternatives to Standard Surgical Masks in Terms of Particle Filtration Efficiency" Mueller et al., Apr 17 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.17...
18/70"Visualizing Speech-Generated Oral Fluid Droplets with Laser Light Scattering," Anfinrud et al., Apr 15 2020, N Engl J Med:   https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2007800
19/70"Transmission of COVID-19 to Health Care Personnel During Exposures to a Hospitalized Patient — Solano County, California, February 2020," Heinzerling et al., Apr 14 2020, CDC MMWR:   https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6915e5.ht...
20/70META: "Face Masks Against COVID-19: An Evidence Review," Howard et al., Apr 12 2020, Preprints:    https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v...
21/70META: "Face masks for the public during the covid-19 crisis," Greenhalgh et al., April 9 2020, BMJ:   https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1435
22/70"The Case for Universal Cloth Mask Adoption and Policies to Increase Supply of Medical Masks for Health Workers" Abaluck et al., April 6 2020, SSRN:   https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_i...
23/70META: Facemasks and similar barriers to prevent respiratory illness such as COVID-19: A rapid systematic review," Brainard et al., April 6 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01...
24/70"Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses. Part 1 - Face masks, eye protection and person distancing: systematic review and meta-analysis," Jefferson et al., Apr 7 2020, medRxiv:    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.30...
25/70"Widespread use of face masks in public may slow the spread of SARS CoV-2: an ecological study," Kenyon, Apr 6 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.31...
26/70"Could SARS-CoV-2 be transmitted via speech droplets?," Anfinrud et al., Apr 6 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.02...
27/70"Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks" Leung et al., Nat Med, April 3 2020:    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2
28/70"Potential Utilities of Mask-Wearing and Instant Hand Hygiene for Fighting SARS-CoV-2" Ma et al., J Med Virol., March 31 2020:   https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/j...
29/70"Calibrated Intervention and Containment of the COVID-19 Pandemic," Tian et al., Mar 16 2020, arXiv:   https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2003/2003.07353...
30/70META: "Effectiveness of N95 Respirators Versus Surgical Masks Against Influenza: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis," Long et al., Mar 13 2020, J Evid Based Med.:   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32167245/
31/70"Association between 2019-nCoV transmission and N95 respirator use," Wang et al., Mar 3 2020, J Hosp Infect.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC71344...
32/70"Risk of transmission via medical employees and importance of routine infection-prevention policy in a nosocomial outbreak of Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS)" Ki et al., Oct 30 2019, BMC Pulm Med.:   https://bmcpulmmed.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10....
33/70"N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Influenza among Health Care Personnel, A Randomized Clinical Trial," Radonovich et al., Sept 3 2019, JAMA:   https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/...
34/70"Modeling the Effectiveness of Respiratory Protective Devices in Reducing Influenza Outbreak" Yan et al., Sept 19 2018, Risk Analysis:   https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ri...
35/70"Risk Factors for Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus Infection among Healthcare Personnel," Alraddadi et al., Nov 2016, Emerg Infect Dis.:   https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/22/11/16-0920_ar...
36/70"Surveillance of the Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) coronavirus (CoV) infection in healthcare workers after contact with confirmed MERS patients" Kim et al., July 27 2016, Clin Microb Infect.:   https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfection.com/a...
37/70META: "Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks in protecting health care workers from acute respiratory infection: a systematic review and meta-analysis" Smith et al. May 17 2016. CMAJ:    https://www.cmaj.ca/content/cmaj/188/8/567.full.pd...
38/70"Transmission among Healthcare Worker Contacts With a Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Patient in a Single Korean Centre," Kim et al., Feb 2016, Clin Microbiol Infect.:   https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfection.com/a...
39/70"Pilot Randomised Controlled Trial to Test Effectiveness of Facemasks in Preventing Influenza-like Illness Transmission among Australian Hajj Pilgrims in 2011," Barasheed et al., 2014, Infect Disord Drug Targets:   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25336079/
40/70"Protection by Face Masks against Influenza A(H1N1)pdm09 Virus on Trans-Pacific Passenger Aircraft, 2009," Zhang et al., Sep 2013, Emerg Infect Dis.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC38109...
41/70"Testing the Efficacy of Homemade Masks: Would They Protect in an Influenza Pandemic?" Davies et al., Aug 2013, Disaster Med Public Health Prep.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC71086...
42/70"Effectiveness of surgical masks against influenza bioaerosols" Booth et al., May 2013, Journal of Hosp Inf:   https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/...
43/70"Influenza Virus Aerosols in Human Exhaled Breath: Particle Size, Culturability, and Effect of Surgical Masks" Milton et al. Mar 7 2013. PLoS Pathog:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC35913...
44/70"Effectiveness of Selected Surgical Masks in Arresting Vegetative Cells and Endospores When Worn by Simulated Contagious Patients," Green at al., Mar 16 2012, Infect Control Hosp Epidemiol.:   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22476275/
45/70"The Role of Facemasks and Hand Hygiene in the Prevention of Influenza Transmission in Households: Results From a Cluster Randomised Trial; Berlin, Germany, 2009-2011," Suess et al., Jan 26 2012, BMC Infect Dis.:   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22280120/
46/70"Facemasks, Hand Hygiene, and Influenza among Young Adults: A Randomized Intervention Trial," Aiello et al., Jan 25 2012, PLoS One:    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.13...
47/70"Is Abdominal Obesity Associated With the 2009 Influenza A (H1N1) Pandemic in Korean School-Aged Children?" Kim et al., Dec 8 2011, Influenza and Other Respiratory Viruses:   https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j...
48/70META: "Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses" Jefferson et al., July 6 2011, Cochrane Database Syst Rev.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC69939...
49/70"Impact of Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions on URIs and Influenza in Crowded, Urban Households," Larson et al., Mar 2010, Public Health Rep.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC28218...
50/70"Mask Use, Hand Hygiene, and Seasonal Influenza-Like Illness among Young Adults: A Randomized Intervention Trial," Aiello et al., Feb 15 2010, J Infect Dis.:   https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/201/4/491/861...
51/70"Risk factors for SARS infection among hospital healthcare workers in Beijing: a case control study," Tang et al., Oct 7 2009, Trop Med & Int Health:   https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j...
52/70"Facemasks and Hand Hygiene to Prevent Influenza Transmission in Households: A Cluster Randomized Trial," Cowling et al., 6 Oct 2009, Ann Intern Med.:   https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/0003-...
53/70"A Quantitative Assessment of the Efficacy of Surgical and N95 Masks to Filter Influenza Virus in Patients With Acute Influenza Infection," Johnson et al., July 15 2009, Clin Infect Dis:   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19522650/
54/70"Face Mask Use and Control of Respiratory Virus Transmission in Households," MacIntyre et al., Feb 2009, Emerg Infect Dis.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC26626...
55/70"The First Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial of Mask Use in Households to Prevent Respiratory Virus Transmission," MacIntyre et al. Dec 1 2008, Int J Infect Dis.:   https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(08)0...
56/70"Risk Factors for SARS Infection Within Hospitals in Hanoi, Vietnam," Nishiyama et al., Sep 2008, Jpn J Infect Dis.:    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18806349/
57/70"Professional and Home-Made Face Masks Reduce Exposure to Respiratory Infections among the General Population," v.d.Sande et al., July 9 2008, PLoS One:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC24407...
58/70"Factors Associated With Nosocomial SARS-CoV Transmission among Healthcare Workers in Hanoi, Vietnam, 2003," Reynolds et al., Aug 2006, BMC Public Health:  https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles...
59/70"Investigation of the Influencing Factors on Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome among Health Care Workers," Pei et al., June 18 2006, Beijing Da Xue Xue Bao Yi Xue Ban:   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16778970/
60/70"Simple Respiratory Mask," Dato et al., June 2006, Emerg Infect Dis.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC33730...
61/70"Rapid Awareness and Transmission of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome in Hanoi French Hospital, Vietnam," Jul 1 2005, Am J Trop Med and Hyg.:   http://www.ajtmh.org/content/journals/10.4269/ajtm...
62/70"Asymptomatic SARS Coronavirus Infection among Healthcare Workers, Singapore," Wilder-Smith et al., July 2005, Emerg Inf Dis.:   https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/11/7/04-1165_art...
63/70"Factors associated with transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome among health-care workers in Singapore," Teleman et al., Nov 8 2004, Epidemiol Infect.:   https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambri...
64/70"SARS Transmission, Risk Factors, and Prevention in Hong Kong," Lau et al., Apr 2004, Emerg Infect Dis.:    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC33230...
65/70"Mild Illness Associated with Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus Infection: Lessons from a Prospective Seroepidemiologic Study of Health-Care Workers in a Teaching Hospital in Singapore," Ho et al., Feb 15 2004, J Infect Dis.:   https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/189/4/642/839...
66/70"Risk Factors for SARS among Persons without Known Contact with SARS Patients, Beijing, China" Wu et al., Feb 2004, Emerg Infect Dis:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC33229...
67/70"SARS among Critical Care Nurses, Toronto," Loeb et al., Feb 2004, Emerg Infect Dis.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC33228...
68/70"Effectiveness of Personal Protective Measures in Prevention of Nosocomial Transmission of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome," Yin et al., Jan 2004. Zhonghua Liu Xing Bing Xue Za Zhi:  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15061941/
69/70"Illness in Intensive Care Staff After Brief Exposure to Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome," Scales et al., Oct 2003, Emerg Infect Dis.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC30330...
70/70"Effectiveness of precautions against droplets and contact in prevention of nosocomial transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS)," Seto et al., May 3 2003, Lancet:   https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/...


Which brings me on to your reply to bigee, where pot meets kettle so to speak.

chris56 said:
bigee said:
Have you read the Danish study ?
Yes.
The main benefit and point of wearing masks is to protect others not the wearer i.e. it is to prevent someone who is unaware that they are infectious from infecting others. The Danish study did not cover this aspect at all.
This article gives more details
https://fullfact.org/health/danish-mask-wearing-sp...
The Lancet produced a note on the Danish study recently here https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4586

Here is a relevant extract from the Lancet report

"When the mythical trial was finally published last week in the Annals of Internal Medicine we didn’t need to read it. We already knew its damning verdict on mask wearing. Social media told us as much. Eminent professors of evidence based medicine, Carl Heneghan and Tom Jefferson, confirmed this in an article for the Spectator.

Except that if you read the published paper you find almost the exact opposite. The trial is inconclusive rather than negative, and it points to a likely benefit of mask wearing to the wearer—it did not examine the wider potential benefit of reduced spread of infection to others—and this even in a population where mask wearing isn’t mandatory and prevalence of infection is low. This finding is in keeping with summaries of evidence from Cochrane.'


The link you provide for the article is to Full Fact (company reg no 6975984, registered charity number 1158683), which is a registered charity that also owns a trading company called Full Fact Services Ltd (company reg no 09541967), which rather astonishingly has the same Director Will Moy, the same registered company address, accountants and bank. Am led to believe it fact checks for facebook, which probably explains why so many posts are disappearing off Facebook.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Fact describes Full Fact and yes it does provide fact checking services for Facebook.
Good to see that Facebook is finally stepping up to remove misinformation from their platform.

So the questions I must ask is who in this registered charity / Ltd company is qualified to fact check, are they qualified in this area of expertise, and if so, let's have some names and qualifications?

You can read about how they fact check on their website in detail

Who indeed is checking the credentials of the fact checkers?

see above

Perhaps some newspaper journalists might want to do some digging about the credibility of Full Fact and Full Fact Services Ltd, the first stop might be to read the civilsociety.co.uk article from 2014 mentioning that 'Full Fact gets Charity status after being rejected twice'. Also take a look at the list of wealthy donors of which there are many. The article mentions Professor Jean Seaton who is the official historian of the BBC, whilst Simon Briscoe is the specialist advisor to the House of Commons Public Administration Select Committee.

Edited by rich888 on Sunday 29th November 23:23
The article from Civil Society talks about the fact that the first two applications for charitable status had been rejected due to concerns about whether the service was 100% charitable. They recommended some guidelines which were implemented by Full Facts and thereby granted charitable status. If you have some concerns about their charitable status then I suggest you write to the Charity Commission.

320d is all you need

1,482 posts

6 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
I think we can all agree that on the balance of everything

Masks don't work.

Certainly their benefits are not "noticeable".

tonker

60,048 posts

211 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
How come Chris56 comes up as Mahalo and has seemingly written more posts in the last couple of weeks than the last eleven years ....

Mark V GTD

648 posts

87 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
He has 'Mahalo' as his nickname. Maybe its more obvious looking at the site on a full size screen. Your profile has 'tonker' as nickname and 'Tonker' as name.

Lemming Train

5,567 posts

35 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
tonker said:
How come Chris56 comes up as Mahalo and has seemingly written more posts in the last couple of weeks than the last eleven years ....
There are a large number of ancient accounts which have suddenly been "activated" and been making tons of posts in the covid threads. Klan[random numbers] is another one such account. It's all very suspicious.

poo at Paul's

10,308 posts

138 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
thedugmaster said:
I now only wear one about 50% of the time when in shops and that ratio is dropping on a weekly basis.
I bet the birds are queuing up! laugh

klan8456

580 posts

38 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
Lemming Train said:
tonker said:
How come Chris56 comes up as Mahalo and has seemingly written more posts in the last couple of weeks than the last eleven years ....
There are a large number of ancient accounts which have suddenly been "activated" and been making tons of posts in the covid threads. Klan[random numbers] is another one such account. It's all very suspicious.
You caught me, I’m a government comms bot rolleyes

I have to say that PH is the strangest group of people I’ve ever come across in my life.


ChevronB19

2,418 posts

126 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
Lemming Train said:
tonker said:
How come Chris56 comes up as Mahalo and has seemingly written more posts in the last couple of weeks than the last eleven years ....
There are a large number of ancient accounts which have suddenly been "activated" and been making tons of posts in the covid threads. Klan[random numbers] is another one such account. It's all very suspicious.
There’s that PH specific conspiracy theory again. Seriously, we (as in the denizens of PH) are not that important.

rich888

2,610 posts

162 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
chris56 said:
Please see my comments in line

rich888 said:
chris56 said:
rich888 said:
Take a read at this article to better understand how the virus behaves when it touches a mask.
https://www.aier.org/article/the-year-of-disguises...
The article is from the website of the AIER hardly a well known scientific research institute - AIER stands for American Institute for Economic Research and their headquarters are in Great Barrington (there is a clue here). The article is really an opinion piece from a Chemist - it has not been peer reviewed or validated in any way.
Could I suggest you do some more investigating possibly concentrating on scientific studies from recognised centres of excellence and read those to get a more informed perspective.

Edited by chris56 on Sunday 29th November 20:19
Thanks for clarifying the credentials of the website and author of the article in question, and I appreciate that you've only made three or four posts on PH recently, mainly trying to discredit people, but could I also suggest that you refrain from posting on here telling folks they are wearing a fake watch, when it's quite obvious that it's genuine one.

Anyway, back to the subject in hand.

The 'chemist' you are trying hard to discredit is Roger W. Koops who holds a Ph.D. in Chemistry from the University of California, Riverside, as well as Master and Bachelor degrees from Western Washington University. He worked in the Pharmaceutical and Biotechnology Industry for over 25 years.

Before retiring in 2017, he spent 12 years as a Consultant focused on Quality Assurance/Control and issues related to Regulatory Compliance.

He has authored or co-authored several papers in the areas of pharmaceutical technology and chemistry.

Apologies for taking some time to respond - I have a full time job to do so have other priorities to deal with other than posting on Pistonheads.

This is what AIER describe him as but it would appear his expertise is more related to the petrochemical industry.(see below)
I have made no attempts to discredit him - he clearly is an experienced chemist with it would appear experience in the petro-chemical business

Now if you had bothered to read the article in question you will realise that he has quite a lot of experience and knowledge with regard to the wearing of masks, though having read your previous post you made a few days ago when you were trying to discredit Dr Mike Yeadon, Gupta, and Dr. Roger Hodkinson, you seem to contribute very little of value to the forum.


I read the article in full and it is an opinion piece with no reference to any scientific studies to back up any of the statements he makes. If you had perhaps bothered to do more research on Roger Koops (who was paid by AIER to write this article) rather than believing what AIER describe him as , you would see he has three research papers he co-authored. They all seem to involve subjects related to the petro-chemical industry rather than pharmaceutical or biotechnology.

In the meantime, you do seem to be very critical of the above article, apparently choosing to read scientific studies from recognised centres of excellence, so please do provide links to these scientific studies from highly regarded centres of excellence, so that I can read those to get a more informed perspective on the benefits of wearing a mask.


Anyhow you asked for links to scientific studies on masks here are links to 70 studies which are all research studies

1/70"Visualizing the effectiveness of face masks in obstructing respiratory jets," Verma et al., June 30 2020, Phys Fluids:   https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/5.001601...
2/70"Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US" Lyu et al., June 16 2020, Health Affairs:   https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff....
3/70"Association of country-wide coronavirus mortality with demographics, testing, lockdowns, and public wearing of masks" Leffler et al., June 15 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.22...
4/70"Identifying airborne transmission as the dominant route for the spread of COVID-19" Zhang et al., June 11 2020, PNAS:    https://www.pnas.org/content/117/26/14857
5/70"A modelling framework to assess the likely effectiveness of facemasks in combination with ‘lock-down’ in managing the COVID-19 pandemic" Stutt et al., June 10 2020, Proc. R. Soc. A.:   https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsp...
6/70META: "Physical distancing, face masks, and eye protection to prevent person-to-person transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis," June 1 2020, Lancet:   https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/...
7/70"Face coverings for the public: Laying straw men to rest" Greenhalgh, May 26 2020, Journal of Evaluation of Clinical Practice:   https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j...
8/70"COVID-19 and the Social Distancing Paradox: dangers and solutions" Marchiori, May 26 2020, arXiv:    https://arxiv.org/pdf/2005.12446.pdf
9/70"Cloth Masks May Prevent Transmission of COVID-19: An Evidence-Based, Risk-Based Approach," Clase et al., May 22 2020, An of Int Med.:    https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-2567
10/70"Quantitative Method for Comparative Assessment of Particle Filtration Efficiency of Fabric Masks as Alternatives to Standard Surgical Masks for PPE" Mueller et al., May 18 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.17...
11/70"Reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in households by face mask use, disinfection and social distancing: a cohort study in Beijing, China" Wang et al., May 11 2020, BMJ Global Health:   https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/5/5/e002794.full....
12/70"The flow physics of COVID-19" Mittal et al., May 1 2020, J. Fluid Mech.:   https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambri...
13/70"Aerosol Filtration Efficiency of Common Fabrics Used in Respiratory Cloth Masks" Konda et al., ACS Nano, April 24 2020:   https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252
14/70"Epidemiological characteristics of COVID-19 in medical staff members of neurosurgery departments in Hubei province: A multicentre descriptive study," Wang et al., Apr 24 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.20...
15/70"A rapid systematic review of the efficacy of face masks and respirators against coronaviruses and other respiratory transmissible..." MacIntyre et al., Apr 21 2020, Int J Nursing Studies:    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/...
16/70"Universal Masking is Urgent in the COVID-19 Pandemic: SEIR and Agent Based Models, Empirical Validation, Policy Recommendations," Kai et al., Apr 21 2020, arXiv:    https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf
17/70"Assessment of Fabric Masks as Alternatives to Standard Surgical Masks in Terms of Particle Filtration Efficiency" Mueller et al., Apr 17 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.17...
18/70"Visualizing Speech-Generated Oral Fluid Droplets with Laser Light Scattering," Anfinrud et al., Apr 15 2020, N Engl J Med:   https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2007800
19/70"Transmission of COVID-19 to Health Care Personnel During Exposures to a Hospitalized Patient — Solano County, California, February 2020," Heinzerling et al., Apr 14 2020, CDC MMWR:   https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6915e5.ht...
20/70META: "Face Masks Against COVID-19: An Evidence Review," Howard et al., Apr 12 2020, Preprints:    https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v...
21/70META: "Face masks for the public during the covid-19 crisis," Greenhalgh et al., April 9 2020, BMJ:   https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1435
22/70"The Case for Universal Cloth Mask Adoption and Policies to Increase Supply of Medical Masks for Health Workers" Abaluck et al., April 6 2020, SSRN:   https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_i...
23/70META: Facemasks and similar barriers to prevent respiratory illness such as COVID-19: A rapid systematic review," Brainard et al., April 6 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01...
24/70"Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses. Part 1 - Face masks, eye protection and person distancing: systematic review and meta-analysis," Jefferson et al., Apr 7 2020, medRxiv:    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.30...
25/70"Widespread use of face masks in public may slow the spread of SARS CoV-2: an ecological study," Kenyon, Apr 6 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.31...
26/70"Could SARS-CoV-2 be transmitted via speech droplets?," Anfinrud et al., Apr 6 2020, medRxiv:   https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.02...
27/70"Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks" Leung et al., Nat Med, April 3 2020:    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2
28/70"Potential Utilities of Mask-Wearing and Instant Hand Hygiene for Fighting SARS-CoV-2" Ma et al., J Med Virol., March 31 2020:   https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/j...
29/70"Calibrated Intervention and Containment of the COVID-19 Pandemic," Tian et al., Mar 16 2020, arXiv:   https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2003/2003.07353...
30/70META: "Effectiveness of N95 Respirators Versus Surgical Masks Against Influenza: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis," Long et al., Mar 13 2020, J Evid Based Med.:   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32167245/
31/70"Association between 2019-nCoV transmission and N95 respirator use," Wang et al., Mar 3 2020, J Hosp Infect.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC71344...
32/70"Risk of transmission via medical employees and importance of routine infection-prevention policy in a nosocomial outbreak of Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS)" Ki et al., Oct 30 2019, BMC Pulm Med.:   https://bmcpulmmed.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10....
33/70"N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Influenza among Health Care Personnel, A Randomized Clinical Trial," Radonovich et al., Sept 3 2019, JAMA:   https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/...
34/70"Modeling the Effectiveness of Respiratory Protective Devices in Reducing Influenza Outbreak" Yan et al., Sept 19 2018, Risk Analysis:   https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ri...
35/70"Risk Factors for Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus Infection among Healthcare Personnel," Alraddadi et al., Nov 2016, Emerg Infect Dis.:   https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/22/11/16-0920_ar...
36/70"Surveillance of the Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) coronavirus (CoV) infection in healthcare workers after contact with confirmed MERS patients" Kim et al., July 27 2016, Clin Microb Infect.:   https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfection.com/a...
37/70META: "Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks in protecting health care workers from acute respiratory infection: a systematic review and meta-analysis" Smith et al. May 17 2016. CMAJ:    https://www.cmaj.ca/content/cmaj/188/8/567.full.pd...
38/70"Transmission among Healthcare Worker Contacts With a Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Patient in a Single Korean Centre," Kim et al., Feb 2016, Clin Microbiol Infect.:   https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfection.com/a...
39/70"Pilot Randomised Controlled Trial to Test Effectiveness of Facemasks in Preventing Influenza-like Illness Transmission among Australian Hajj Pilgrims in 2011," Barasheed et al., 2014, Infect Disord Drug Targets:   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25336079/
40/70"Protection by Face Masks against Influenza A(H1N1)pdm09 Virus on Trans-Pacific Passenger Aircraft, 2009," Zhang et al., Sep 2013, Emerg Infect Dis.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC38109...
41/70"Testing the Efficacy of Homemade Masks: Would They Protect in an Influenza Pandemic?" Davies et al., Aug 2013, Disaster Med Public Health Prep.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC71086...
42/70"Effectiveness of surgical masks against influenza bioaerosols" Booth et al., May 2013, Journal of Hosp Inf:   https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/...
43/70"Influenza Virus Aerosols in Human Exhaled Breath: Particle Size, Culturability, and Effect of Surgical Masks" Milton et al. Mar 7 2013. PLoS Pathog:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC35913...
44/70"Effectiveness of Selected Surgical Masks in Arresting Vegetative Cells and Endospores When Worn by Simulated Contagious Patients," Green at al., Mar 16 2012, Infect Control Hosp Epidemiol.:   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22476275/
45/70"The Role of Facemasks and Hand Hygiene in the Prevention of Influenza Transmission in Households: Results From a Cluster Randomised Trial; Berlin, Germany, 2009-2011," Suess et al., Jan 26 2012, BMC Infect Dis.:   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22280120/
46/70"Facemasks, Hand Hygiene, and Influenza among Young Adults: A Randomized Intervention Trial," Aiello et al., Jan 25 2012, PLoS One:    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.13...
47/70"Is Abdominal Obesity Associated With the 2009 Influenza A (H1N1) Pandemic in Korean School-Aged Children?" Kim et al., Dec 8 2011, Influenza and Other Respiratory Viruses:   https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j...
48/70META: "Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses" Jefferson et al., July 6 2011, Cochrane Database Syst Rev.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC69939...
49/70"Impact of Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions on URIs and Influenza in Crowded, Urban Households," Larson et al., Mar 2010, Public Health Rep.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC28218...
50/70"Mask Use, Hand Hygiene, and Seasonal Influenza-Like Illness among Young Adults: A Randomized Intervention Trial," Aiello et al., Feb 15 2010, J Infect Dis.:   https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/201/4/491/861...
51/70"Risk factors for SARS infection among hospital healthcare workers in Beijing: a case control study," Tang et al., Oct 7 2009, Trop Med & Int Health:   https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j...
52/70"Facemasks and Hand Hygiene to Prevent Influenza Transmission in Households: A Cluster Randomized Trial," Cowling et al., 6 Oct 2009, Ann Intern Med.:   https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/0003-...
53/70"A Quantitative Assessment of the Efficacy of Surgical and N95 Masks to Filter Influenza Virus in Patients With Acute Influenza Infection," Johnson et al., July 15 2009, Clin Infect Dis:   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19522650/
54/70"Face Mask Use and Control of Respiratory Virus Transmission in Households," MacIntyre et al., Feb 2009, Emerg Infect Dis.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC26626...
55/70"The First Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial of Mask Use in Households to Prevent Respiratory Virus Transmission," MacIntyre et al. Dec 1 2008, Int J Infect Dis.:   https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(08)0...
56/70"Risk Factors for SARS Infection Within Hospitals in Hanoi, Vietnam," Nishiyama et al., Sep 2008, Jpn J Infect Dis.:    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18806349/
57/70"Professional and Home-Made Face Masks Reduce Exposure to Respiratory Infections among the General Population," v.d.Sande et al., July 9 2008, PLoS One:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC24407...
58/70"Factors Associated With Nosocomial SARS-CoV Transmission among Healthcare Workers in Hanoi, Vietnam, 2003," Reynolds et al., Aug 2006, BMC Public Health:  https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles...
59/70"Investigation of the Influencing Factors on Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome among Health Care Workers," Pei et al., June 18 2006, Beijing Da Xue Xue Bao Yi Xue Ban:   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16778970/
60/70"Simple Respiratory Mask," Dato et al., June 2006, Emerg Infect Dis.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC33730...
61/70"Rapid Awareness and Transmission of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome in Hanoi French Hospital, Vietnam," Jul 1 2005, Am J Trop Med and Hyg.:   http://www.ajtmh.org/content/journals/10.4269/ajtm...
62/70"Asymptomatic SARS Coronavirus Infection among Healthcare Workers, Singapore," Wilder-Smith et al., July 2005, Emerg Inf Dis.:   https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/11/7/04-1165_art...
63/70"Factors associated with transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome among health-care workers in Singapore," Teleman et al., Nov 8 2004, Epidemiol Infect.:   https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambri...
64/70"SARS Transmission, Risk Factors, and Prevention in Hong Kong," Lau et al., Apr 2004, Emerg Infect Dis.:    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC33230...
65/70"Mild Illness Associated with Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus Infection: Lessons from a Prospective Seroepidemiologic Study of Health-Care Workers in a Teaching Hospital in Singapore," Ho et al., Feb 15 2004, J Infect Dis.:   https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/189/4/642/839...
66/70"Risk Factors for SARS among Persons without Known Contact with SARS Patients, Beijing, China" Wu et al., Feb 2004, Emerg Infect Dis:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC33229...
67/70"SARS among Critical Care Nurses, Toronto," Loeb et al., Feb 2004, Emerg Infect Dis.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC33228...
68/70"Effectiveness of Personal Protective Measures in Prevention of Nosocomial Transmission of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome," Yin et al., Jan 2004. Zhonghua Liu Xing Bing Xue Za Zhi:  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15061941/
69/70"Illness in Intensive Care Staff After Brief Exposure to Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome," Scales et al., Oct 2003, Emerg Infect Dis.:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC30330...
70/70"Effectiveness of precautions against droplets and contact in prevention of nosocomial transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS)," Seto et al., May 3 2003, Lancet:   https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/...


Which brings me on to your reply to bigee, where pot meets kettle so to speak.

chris56 said:
bigee said:
Have you read the Danish study ?
Yes.
The main benefit and point of wearing masks is to protect others not the wearer i.e. it is to prevent someone who is unaware that they are infectious from infecting others. The Danish study did not cover this aspect at all.
This article gives more details
https://fullfact.org/health/danish-mask-wearing-sp...
The Lancet produced a note on the Danish study recently here https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4586

Here is a relevant extract from the Lancet report

"When the mythical trial was finally published last week in the Annals of Internal Medicine we didn’t need to read it. We already knew its damning verdict on mask wearing. Social media told us as much. Eminent professors of evidence based medicine, Carl Heneghan and Tom Jefferson, confirmed this in an article for the Spectator.

Except that if you read the published paper you find almost the exact opposite. The trial is inconclusive rather than negative, and it points to a likely benefit of mask wearing to the wearer—it did not examine the wider potential benefit of reduced spread of infection to others—and this even in a population where mask wearing isn’t mandatory and prevalence of infection is low. This finding is in keeping with summaries of evidence from Cochrane.'


The link you provide for the article is to Full Fact (company reg no 6975984, registered charity number 1158683), which is a registered charity that also owns a trading company called Full Fact Services Ltd (company reg no 09541967), which rather astonishingly has the same Director Will Moy, the same registered company address, accountants and bank. Am led to believe it fact checks for facebook, which probably explains why so many posts are disappearing off Facebook.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Fact describes Full Fact and yes it does provide fact checking services for Facebook.
Good to see that Facebook is finally stepping up to remove misinformation from their platform.

So the questions I must ask is who in this registered charity / Ltd company is qualified to fact check, are they qualified in this area of expertise, and if so, let's have some names and qualifications?

You can read about how they fact check on their website in detail

Who indeed is checking the credentials of the fact checkers?

see above

Perhaps some newspaper journalists might want to do some digging about the credibility of Full Fact and Full Fact Services Ltd, the first stop might be to read the civilsociety.co.uk article from 2014 mentioning that 'Full Fact gets Charity status after being rejected twice'. Also take a look at the list of wealthy donors of which there are many. The article mentions Professor Jean Seaton who is the official historian of the BBC, whilst Simon Briscoe is the specialist advisor to the House of Commons Public Administration Select Committee.

Edited by rich888 on Sunday 29th November 23:23
The article from Civil Society talks about the fact that the first two applications for charitable status had been rejected due to concerns about whether the service was 100% charitable. They recommended some guidelines which were implemented by Full Facts and thereby granted charitable status. If you have some concerns about their charitable status then I suggest you write to the Charity Commission.
Thanks, will investigate shortly smile

WinstonWolf

72,812 posts

202 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
rich888 said:
Thanks, will investigate shortly smile
I wouldn't pay it much heed, no one has been able to produce a single graph that demonstrates mask mandates working.

Mahalo

460 posts

142 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
320d is all you need said:
There are other studies on masks

pdmj.org

There are no studies anywhere in the world which show masks reduce spread/infection rates

In Fact I believe in over 90% of countries were masks were mandated, cases rose very quickly after this implementation.
PDMJ.org was a website set up in November 2020 - there only seem to be three webpages to the whole site - a home page, a contact page and an about page. The home page contains links to four papers - the first is a paper written by Colleen Huber. She is a Naturopathic Doctor. The paper states "Masks are neither effective nor safe" it says it has been peer reviewed presumably by other naturopaths but there is no evidence of this.
It is laughable really as she goes on to quote references to 43 medical research studies which she says back up her claim that masks are neither effective or safe. She must have problems reading because I randomly read some of them and the majority of the papers I read were advising for the use of masks and stated they did have protective benefits.

monkfish1

8,734 posts

187 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
ChevronB19 said:
Lemming Train said:
tonker said:
How come Chris56 comes up as Mahalo and has seemingly written more posts in the last couple of weeks than the last eleven years ....
There are a large number of ancient accounts which have suddenly been "activated" and been making tons of posts in the covid threads. Klan[random numbers] is another one such account. It's all very suspicious.
There’s that PH specific conspiracy theory again. Seriously, we (as in the denizens of PH) are not that important.
Like you are in a postion to judge?

There is a lot of information being shared on the forum, a lot of it against the government narrative. Id not be quite so sure.

Why would dormant accounts suddenly get all animated about covid threads, without exception towing the government line.

You can convince yourself its not sinister, but whats the other explanation?

It simply not normal posting behaviour.

Wacky Racer

33,989 posts

210 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
Alucidnation said:
bad company said:
Alucidnation said:
Normal people are wearing masks and getting on with it for now.
Sheep are wearing masks and getting on with it for now.
I live in a very rural area and all the livestock aren’t wearing any.

Maybe it’s different where you live.

rich888

2,610 posts

162 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
Wacky Racer said:
Alucidnation said:
bad company said:
Alucidnation said:
Normal people are wearing masks and getting on with it for now.
Sheep are wearing masks and getting on with it for now.
I live in a very rural area and all the livestock aren’t wearing any.

Maybe it’s different where you live.
hehe

jshell

9,928 posts

168 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
Lemming Train said:
tonker said:
How come Chris56 comes up as Mahalo and has seemingly written more posts in the last couple of weeks than the last eleven years ....
There are a large number of ancient accounts which have suddenly been "activated" and been making tons of posts in the covid threads. Klan[random numbers] is another one such account. It's all very suspicious.
Starting to see it. Coincidence? I suspect not.

bad company

13,757 posts

229 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
Wacky Racer said:
Alucidnation said:
bad company said:
Alucidnation said:
Normal people are wearing masks and getting on with it for now.
Sheep are wearing masks and getting on with it for now.
I live in a very rural area and all the livestock aren’t wearing any.

Maybe it’s different where you live.
Looks like the sheep are wearing masks wherever you live. Good though.

laugh