Suspected terror attack in Nice
Discussion
poo at Paul's said:
Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
I think that's not anecdotal, it's just a fact that the UK has probably the tightest weapon laws in the world, certainly a lot tighter than France.All this talk of "elephant in the room" I'd love to know clearly which elephant we're talking about. I do agree with comments above about not understanding why you would care about the opinions of non-believers about your religion, there does seem to be a significant amount of extremist preaching, however there's been over nine centuries of conflict between Christianity and Islam and about another 1.5 millenia of conflict between european and middle eastern societies before that so picking out the guilty party is doing nothing but fuelling the argument. Like Northern Ireland until such time as all actors agree to lay down their arms there will never be peace.
s1962a said:
poo at Paul's said:
First off, what a horrific act, sympathies to all involved.
In answer to your question, is there not a fundamental issue in France and even some urban areas of Belgium, with a seeming tolerance of extremism and that extremism is larger than you many may think?
After the Bataclan atrocity, in the few days after, police in France raided about 1000 addresses of known extremists all over the county, and recovered over 400 illegal (I think from memory) "guns", (although it may have been "weapons").
That is quite some strike rate, more than you would hope, and the mere fact they were able to quickly search 1000 addresses and find 40% of them have illegal weapons, suggest they know more about who these extremists are, but seem to be tolerant of them day to day. An "extremist" on facebook is one thing, and extremist with a gun is quite another.
France is not the only country, i am sure, we have lots to keep our eye on in this country too. But i was very surprised about the after math of the Bataclan and could not help but think, why have they let these people get hold of all these weapons etc if they know who they are?
Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
Very good points, which I agree with. I've never met anyone with terrorist views, and I suspect I (as a muslim) would be their enemy because I dont follow their brand of political extremism just as much as anyone else is. They need to be weeded out, and we wont do it by vilifying the entire muslim population.In answer to your question, is there not a fundamental issue in France and even some urban areas of Belgium, with a seeming tolerance of extremism and that extremism is larger than you many may think?
After the Bataclan atrocity, in the few days after, police in France raided about 1000 addresses of known extremists all over the county, and recovered over 400 illegal (I think from memory) "guns", (although it may have been "weapons").
That is quite some strike rate, more than you would hope, and the mere fact they were able to quickly search 1000 addresses and find 40% of them have illegal weapons, suggest they know more about who these extremists are, but seem to be tolerant of them day to day. An "extremist" on facebook is one thing, and extremist with a gun is quite another.
France is not the only country, i am sure, we have lots to keep our eye on in this country too. But i was very surprised about the after math of the Bataclan and could not help but think, why have they let these people get hold of all these weapons etc if they know who they are?
Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
uncleluck said:
Someone else shot dead now in Avignon for threatening passers by with a knife.
Guard stabbed at French consulate in Saudi
We (the UK and other Western countries) have barely given France any support for standing up for protection of free speech - we need to do more otherwise the extremists will censor us.Guard stabbed at French consulate in Saudi
I want Boris to give an unequivocal speech on France and their stance on free speech. This isn't anti-Islamic at all, merely anti-extremist and standing up for Western values.
Iamnotkloot said:
We (the UK and other Western countries) have barely given France any support for standing up for protection of free speech - we need to do more otherwise the extremists will censor us.
I want Boris to give an unequivocal speech on France and their stance on free speech. This isn't anti-Islamic at all, merely anti-extremist and standing up for Western values.
Agreed - its embarrassing how little international support France has had over this. All I've seen in the uk was one comment from Dominic Raab. I'm far from a fan of Macron but he's right in this case.I want Boris to give an unequivocal speech on France and their stance on free speech. This isn't anti-Islamic at all, merely anti-extremist and standing up for Western values.
i4got said:
Iamnotkloot said:
We (the UK and other Western countries) have barely given France any support for standing up for protection of free speech - we need to do more otherwise the extremists will censor us.
I want Boris to give an unequivocal speech on France and their stance on free speech. This isn't anti-Islamic at all, merely anti-extremist and standing up for Western values.
Agreed - its embarrassing how little international support France has had over this. All I've seen in the uk was one comment from Dominic Raab. I'm far from a fan of Macron but he's right in this case.I want Boris to give an unequivocal speech on France and their stance on free speech. This isn't anti-Islamic at all, merely anti-extremist and standing up for Western values.
hiccy18 said:
poo at Paul's said:
Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
I think that's not anecdotal, it's just a fact that the UK has probably the tightest weapon laws in the world, certainly a lot tighter than France.Being an island, it just makes it a lot harder to do that, as there are by default specific points of entry into the UK that can be guarded/monitored.
You can put something in car/van in eastern europe and pretty much just drive to France.
Absolutely horrific and unjustifiable attack and two wrongs certainly don't make a right, but it seems to me that a lot of people feel that these attacks come out of nowhere?
Let's not forget that our hands aren't entirely clean either - the UK was part of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq not so long ago on highly dubious grounds. We also backed the US when they threw the right to a fair trial out the window, secretly extradited dozens of individuals and tortured more in those countries.
Again, that doesn't justify these attacks, but the attackers aren't the only ones we should be looking to blame and we should all be aware of the consequences of our foreign policy actions.
Let's not forget that our hands aren't entirely clean either - the UK was part of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq not so long ago on highly dubious grounds. We also backed the US when they threw the right to a fair trial out the window, secretly extradited dozens of individuals and tortured more in those countries.
Again, that doesn't justify these attacks, but the attackers aren't the only ones we should be looking to blame and we should all be aware of the consequences of our foreign policy actions.
AJL308 said:
s1962a said:
AJL308 said:
s1962a said:
this is horrific
It is. I'm becoming a bit "meh" about it though. Not because I don't care, I do passionately, but because no one is addressing the Elephant in the room. Until that happens then these things are here to stay. aeropilot said:
hiccy18 said:
poo at Paul's said:
Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
I think that's not anecdotal, it's just a fact that the UK has probably the tightest weapon laws in the world, certainly a lot tighter than France.Being an island, it just makes it a lot harder to do that, as there are by default specific points of entry into the UK that can be guarded/monitored.
You can put something in car/van in eastern europe and pretty much just drive to France.
youngsyr said:
Absolutely horrific and unjustifiable attack and two wrongs certainly don't make a right, but it seems to me that a lot of people feel that these attacks come out of nowhere?
Let's not forget that our hands aren't entirely clean either - the UK was part of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq not so long ago on highly dubious grounds. We also backed the US when they threw the right to a fair trial out the window, secretly extradited dozens of individuals and tortured more in those countries.
Again, that doesn't justify these attacks, but the attackers aren't the only ones we should be looking to blame and we should all be aware of the consequences of our foreign policy actions.
And yet everything you've said implies that it does.Let's not forget that our hands aren't entirely clean either - the UK was part of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq not so long ago on highly dubious grounds. We also backed the US when they threw the right to a fair trial out the window, secretly extradited dozens of individuals and tortured more in those countries.
Again, that doesn't justify these attacks, but the attackers aren't the only ones we should be looking to blame and we should all be aware of the consequences of our foreign policy actions.
youngsyr said:
Absolutely horrific and unjustifiable attack and two wrongs certainly don't make a right, but it seems to me that a lot of people feel that these attacks come out of nowhere?
Let's not forget that our hands aren't entirely clean either - the UK was part of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq not so long ago on highly dubious grounds. We also backed the US when they threw the right to a fair trial out the window, secretly extradited dozens of individuals and tortured more in those countries.
Again, that doesn't justify these attacks, but the attackers aren't the only ones we should be looking to blame and we should all be aware of the consequences of our foreign policy actions.
Sounds a lot like justification to me.Let's not forget that our hands aren't entirely clean either - the UK was part of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq not so long ago on highly dubious grounds. We also backed the US when they threw the right to a fair trial out the window, secretly extradited dozens of individuals and tortured more in those countries.
Again, that doesn't justify these attacks, but the attackers aren't the only ones we should be looking to blame and we should all be aware of the consequences of our foreign policy actions.
s1962a said:
i4got said:
Iamnotkloot said:
We (the UK and other Western countries) have barely given France any support for standing up for protection of free speech - we need to do more otherwise the extremists will censor us.
I want Boris to give an unequivocal speech on France and their stance on free speech. This isn't anti-Islamic at all, merely anti-extremist and standing up for Western values.
Agreed - its embarrassing how little international support France has had over this. All I've seen in the uk was one comment from Dominic Raab. I'm far from a fan of Macron but he's right in this case.I want Boris to give an unequivocal speech on France and their stance on free speech. This isn't anti-Islamic at all, merely anti-extremist and standing up for Western values.
You seem to be very good at inflammatory simplistic comments, but don't appear to have the gonads or evidence to back up your thinly veiled racist standpoint. I haven't seen one nation support these actions. Not one.
poo at Paul's said:
s1962a said:
AJL308 said:
s1962a said:
this is horrific
It is. I'm becoming a bit "meh" about it though. Not because I don't care, I do passionately, but because no one is addressing the Elephant in the room. Until that happens then these things are here to stay. In answer to your question, is there not a fundamental issue in France and even some urban areas of Belgium, with a seeming tolerance of extremism and that extremism is larger than you many may think?
After the Bataclan atrocity, in the few days after, police in France raided about 1000 addresses of known extremists all over the county, and recovered over 400 illegal (I think from memory) "guns", (although it may have been "weapons").
That is quite some strike rate, more than you would hope, and the mere fact they were able to quickly search 1000 addresses and find 40% of them have illegal weapons, suggest they know more about who these extremists are, but seem to be tolerant of them day to day. An "extremist" on facebook is one thing, and extremist with a gun is quite another.
France is not the only country, i am sure, we have lots to keep our eye on in this country too. But i was very surprised about the after math of the Bataclan and could not help but think, why have they let these people get hold of all these weapons etc if they know who they are?
Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
We were warned, time and time again and for decades that we were importing trouble but it was ignored and the convenient cry of "racist" was used to shut those people up. When the USS Cole was attacked (early 1990's?) I recall an elderly relative saying something along the lines of Wherever there's trouble in the World it almost always involves these buggers in some way or other. It isn't racist or intolerant to say they were right. It's still the case too.
So, yeah, that's why I take the attitude "meh". Not in relation to the actual acts and the affect they have on the individuals concerned and their families but because we display all of this outrage about a problem that we created.
I see no rational end to this and, quite honestly, I can only see it getting worse. It is to be hoped that all the Western governments have got some well thought out plan of action on the back burner to deal with the fall out of us stopping using all off this black sticky stuff in a few years because the middle east is going to absolutely implode when the money stops flowing. You have countries which essentially have entirely artificial borders and which have done fk-all to sensibly invest the trillions they have made from their windfall over the past 120 years and are going to descend into absolute warzones of tribal factions when it all comes crashing down. Hundreds of thousands, or millions, of Saudi religionists seeking asylum in Western countries does not bear thinking about.
Edited by AJL308 on Thursday 29th October 11:57
And then out roll the usual WOKE meaningless platitudes from the usual all and sundry.
I don’t know who’s more brainwashed. The Islamic nutters who run amok slaughtering the infidels or the Islington style /Grauniad/Trump despising set who view the world per their Uni/MSM indoctrination.
Ain’t altruism a beautiful thing.
I don’t know who’s more brainwashed. The Islamic nutters who run amok slaughtering the infidels or the Islington style /Grauniad/Trump despising set who view the world per their Uni/MSM indoctrination.
Ain’t altruism a beautiful thing.
Edited by W11PEL on Thursday 29th October 11:53
Taylor James said:
youngsyr said:
Absolutely horrific and unjustifiable attack and two wrongs certainly don't make a right, but it seems to me that a lot of people feel that these attacks come out of nowhere?
Let's not forget that our hands aren't entirely clean either - the UK was part of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq not so long ago on highly dubious grounds. We also backed the US when they threw the right to a fair trial out the window, secretly extradited dozens of individuals and tortured more in those countries.
Again, that doesn't justify these attacks, but the attackers aren't the only ones we should be looking to blame and we should all be aware of the consequences of our foreign policy actions.
Sounds a lot like justification to me.Let's not forget that our hands aren't entirely clean either - the UK was part of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq not so long ago on highly dubious grounds. We also backed the US when they threw the right to a fair trial out the window, secretly extradited dozens of individuals and tortured more in those countries.
Again, that doesn't justify these attacks, but the attackers aren't the only ones we should be looking to blame and we should all be aware of the consequences of our foreign policy actions.
aeropilot said:
hiccy18 said:
poo at Paul's said:
Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
I think that's not anecdotal, it's just a fact that the UK has probably the tightest weapon laws in the world, certainly a lot tighter than France.Being an island, it just makes it a lot harder to do that, as there are by default specific points of entry into the UK that can be guarded/monitored.
You can put something in car/van in eastern europe and pretty much just drive to France.
youngsyr said:
Not a justification at all, but in trying to find a solution, let's look at both sides of the story - something that no-one else has yet mentioned in this thread.
Well, you really won't get that from the bigots like AJL308 on this thread. Because all Muslims are a medieval bunch apparently. Until he wants a curry. Or a taxi at 3am. Or something from the 24hr garage late at night. No, they're medieval. Not hard working people with no extremist religious views at all. Nope, they're clearly all murderous ragheads.Tyre Smoke said:
youngsyr said:
Not a justification at all, but in trying to find a solution, let's look at both sides of the story - something that no-one else has yet mentioned in this thread.
Well, you really won't get that from the bigots like AJL308 on this thread. Because all Muslims are a medieval bunch apparently. Until he wants a curry. Or a taxi at 3am. Or something from the 24hr garage late at night. No, they're medieval. Not hard working people with no extremist religious views at all. Nope, they're clearly all murderous ragheads.W11PEL said:
And then out roll the usual WOKE meaningless platitudes from the usual all and sundry.
I don’t know who’s more brainwashed. The Islamic nutters who run amok slaughtering the infidels or the Islington style /Grauniad/Trump despising set who view the world per their Uni/MSM indoctrination.
Ain’t altruism a beautiful thing.
The people I really feel sorry for are the ones that think that somehow we can turn back time to the utopia that pre-immigration Britain was. You know, when it was all green fields and people (of the same colour) just got on. It aint gonna happen, no matter how much you wish it.I don’t know who’s more brainwashed. The Islamic nutters who run amok slaughtering the infidels or the Islington style /Grauniad/Trump despising set who view the world per their Uni/MSM indoctrination.
Ain’t altruism a beautiful thing.
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