Suspected terror attack in Nice

Suspected terror attack in Nice

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hiccy18

2,624 posts

66 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
poo at Paul's said:
Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
I think that's not anecdotal, it's just a fact that the UK has probably the tightest weapon laws in the world, certainly a lot tighter than France.

All this talk of "elephant in the room" I'd love to know clearly which elephant we're talking about. I do agree with comments above about not understanding why you would care about the opinions of non-believers about your religion, there does seem to be a significant amount of extremist preaching, however there's been over nine centuries of conflict between Christianity and Islam and about another 1.5 millenia of conflict between european and middle eastern societies before that so picking out the guilty party is doing nothing but fuelling the argument. Like Northern Ireland until such time as all actors agree to lay down their arms there will never be peace.

AC43

11,435 posts

207 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
s1962a said:
poo at Paul's said:
First off, what a horrific act, sympathies to all involved.
In answer to your question, is there not a fundamental issue in France and even some urban areas of Belgium, with a seeming tolerance of extremism and that extremism is larger than you many may think?
After the Bataclan atrocity, in the few days after, police in France raided about 1000 addresses of known extremists all over the county, and recovered over 400 illegal (I think from memory) "guns", (although it may have been "weapons").
That is quite some strike rate, more than you would hope, and the mere fact they were able to quickly search 1000 addresses and find 40% of them have illegal weapons, suggest they know more about who these extremists are, but seem to be tolerant of them day to day. An "extremist" on facebook is one thing, and extremist with a gun is quite another.
France is not the only country, i am sure, we have lots to keep our eye on in this country too. But i was very surprised about the after math of the Bataclan and could not help but think, why have they let these people get hold of all these weapons etc if they know who they are?

Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
Very good points, which I agree with. I've never met anyone with terrorist views, and I suspect I (as a muslim) would be their enemy because I dont follow their brand of political extremism just as much as anyone else is. They need to be weeded out, and we wont do it by vilifying the entire muslim population.
This is the point that most people seem to miss. They hate everyone outside of their own super-extremist bubble and will happily kill anyone, muslims included, who hasn't signed up 100% to their doctrine.

uncleluck

484 posts

50 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
Someone else shot dead now in Avignon for threatening passers by with a knife.

Guard stabbed at French consulate in Saudi

Iamnotkloot

1,395 posts

146 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
uncleluck said:
Someone else shot dead now in Avignon for threatening passers by with a knife.

Guard stabbed at French consulate in Saudi
We (the UK and other Western countries) have barely given France any support for standing up for protection of free speech - we need to do more otherwise the extremists will censor us.

I want Boris to give an unequivocal speech on France and their stance on free speech. This isn't anti-Islamic at all, merely anti-extremist and standing up for Western values.

i4got

5,624 posts

77 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
Iamnotkloot said:
We (the UK and other Western countries) have barely given France any support for standing up for protection of free speech - we need to do more otherwise the extremists will censor us.

I want Boris to give an unequivocal speech on France and their stance on free speech. This isn't anti-Islamic at all, merely anti-extremist and standing up for Western values.
Agreed - its embarrassing how little international support France has had over this. All I've seen in the uk was one comment from Dominic Raab. I'm far from a fan of Macron but he's right in this case.

s1962a

5,263 posts

161 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
i4got said:
Iamnotkloot said:
We (the UK and other Western countries) have barely given France any support for standing up for protection of free speech - we need to do more otherwise the extremists will censor us.

I want Boris to give an unequivocal speech on France and their stance on free speech. This isn't anti-Islamic at all, merely anti-extremist and standing up for Western values.
Agreed - its embarrassing how little international support France has had over this. All I've seen in the uk was one comment from Dominic Raab. I'm far from a fan of Macron but he's right in this case.
Agree with this as well, cut all economic ties with any nation that supports these actions. If they have had protests on the streets (burning effigies etc) then those regimes need to clamp down on them hard, otherwise economic ties are cut.

aeropilot

34,299 posts

226 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
hiccy18 said:
poo at Paul's said:
Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
I think that's not anecdotal, it's just a fact that the UK has probably the tightest weapon laws in the world, certainly a lot tighter than France.
More to do with the fact that with the EU's obsession with open borders its a lot easier to bring weapons overland into France from the former Soviet bloc areas. The arms used at Bataclan from the Czech Republic.

Being an island, it just makes it a lot harder to do that, as there are by default specific points of entry into the UK that can be guarded/monitored.
You can put something in car/van in eastern europe and pretty much just drive to France.


youngsyr

14,742 posts

191 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
Absolutely horrific and unjustifiable attack and two wrongs certainly don't make a right, but it seems to me that a lot of people feel that these attacks come out of nowhere?

Let's not forget that our hands aren't entirely clean either - the UK was part of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq not so long ago on highly dubious grounds. We also backed the US when they threw the right to a fair trial out the window, secretly extradited dozens of individuals and tortured more in those countries.

Again, that doesn't justify these attacks, but the attackers aren't the only ones we should be looking to blame and we should all be aware of the consequences of our foreign policy actions.




Pothole

34,367 posts

281 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
AJL308 said:
s1962a said:
AJL308 said:
s1962a said:
this is horrific frown
It is. I'm becoming a bit "meh" about it though. Not because I don't care, I do passionately, but because no one is addressing the Elephant in the room. Until that happens then these things are here to stay.
What is the elephant in the room, in your opinion?
If you can't see it you aren't in the same room.
So you're not addressing it either? Well done!

youngsyr

14,742 posts

191 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
aeropilot said:
hiccy18 said:
poo at Paul's said:
Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
I think that's not anecdotal, it's just a fact that the UK has probably the tightest weapon laws in the world, certainly a lot tighter than France.
More to do with the fact that with the EU's obsession with open borders its a lot easier to bring weapons overland into France from the former Soviet bloc areas. The arms used at Bataclan from the Czech Republic.

Being an island, it just makes it a lot harder to do that, as there are by default specific points of entry into the UK that can be guarded/monitored.
You can put something in car/van in eastern europe and pretty much just drive to France.
France also has a complex history with nearby predominantly muslim countries which it has invaded and colonised in the past, resulting in a lot of ill-feeling towards France from those countries.

i4got

5,624 posts

77 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
youngsyr said:
Absolutely horrific and unjustifiable attack and two wrongs certainly don't make a right, but it seems to me that a lot of people feel that these attacks come out of nowhere?

Let's not forget that our hands aren't entirely clean either - the UK was part of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq not so long ago on highly dubious grounds. We also backed the US when they threw the right to a fair trial out the window, secretly extradited dozens of individuals and tortured more in those countries.

Again, that doesn't justify these attacks, but the attackers aren't the only ones we should be looking to blame and we should all be aware of the consequences of our foreign policy actions.
And yet everything you've said implies that it does.


Taylor James

3,111 posts

60 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
youngsyr said:
Absolutely horrific and unjustifiable attack and two wrongs certainly don't make a right, but it seems to me that a lot of people feel that these attacks come out of nowhere?

Let's not forget that our hands aren't entirely clean either - the UK was part of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq not so long ago on highly dubious grounds. We also backed the US when they threw the right to a fair trial out the window, secretly extradited dozens of individuals and tortured more in those countries.

Again, that doesn't justify these attacks, but the attackers aren't the only ones we should be looking to blame and we should all be aware of the consequences of our foreign policy actions.
Sounds a lot like justification to me.

Tyre Smoke

23,018 posts

260 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
s1962a said:
i4got said:
Iamnotkloot said:
We (the UK and other Western countries) have barely given France any support for standing up for protection of free speech - we need to do more otherwise the extremists will censor us.

I want Boris to give an unequivocal speech on France and their stance on free speech. This isn't anti-Islamic at all, merely anti-extremist and standing up for Western values.
Agreed - its embarrassing how little international support France has had over this. All I've seen in the uk was one comment from Dominic Raab. I'm far from a fan of Macron but he's right in this case.
Agree with this as well, cut all economic ties with any nation that supports these actions. If they have had protests on the streets (burning effigies etc) then those regimes need to clamp down on them hard, otherwise economic ties are cut.
What nations support these actions?

You seem to be very good at inflammatory simplistic comments, but don't appear to have the gonads or evidence to back up your thinly veiled racist standpoint. I haven't seen one nation support these actions. Not one.

AJL308

6,390 posts

155 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
poo at Paul's said:
s1962a said:
AJL308 said:
s1962a said:
this is horrific frown
It is. I'm becoming a bit "meh" about it though. Not because I don't care, I do passionately, but because no one is addressing the Elephant in the room. Until that happens then these things are here to stay.
What is the elephant in the room, in your opinion?
First off, what a horrific act, sympathies to all involved.
In answer to your question, is there not a fundamental issue in France and even some urban areas of Belgium, with a seeming tolerance of extremism and that extremism is larger than you many may think?
After the Bataclan atrocity, in the few days after, police in France raided about 1000 addresses of known extremists all over the county, and recovered over 400 illegal (I think from memory) "guns", (although it may have been "weapons").
That is quite some strike rate, more than you would hope, and the mere fact they were able to quickly search 1000 addresses and find 40% of them have illegal weapons, suggest they know more about who these extremists are, but seem to be tolerant of them day to day. An "extremist" on facebook is one thing, and extremist with a gun is quite another.
France is not the only country, i am sure, we have lots to keep our eye on in this country too. But i was very surprised about the after math of the Bataclan and could not help but think, why have they let these people get hold of all these weapons etc if they know who they are?

Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
Sort of. We in the liberal West get all wound-up and outraged when these things happen but, in large part, we should have expected it. Western Europe and other regions have for decades been importing people from an essentially medieval culture and religion who do not share the same values, especially when it comes to the life and rights of those who do not share their culture. It is hardly a new realistion that Islam has a warlike philosophy and has little tolerance for unbelievers. We have been avoiding this fact for decades and show now signs of stopping. Germany allowed in a million or more people entirely unchecked a few years ago, some were proved to have taken part in shooting the st out of Paris only a few weeks later. The fact that after that attack the French police could raid 1,000 properties and recover so many weapons again shows that we are continuing to turn a blind-eye to it.

We were warned, time and time again and for decades that we were importing trouble but it was ignored and the convenient cry of "racist" was used to shut those people up. When the USS Cole was attacked (early 1990's?) I recall an elderly relative saying something along the lines of Wherever there's trouble in the World it almost always involves these buggers in some way or other. It isn't racist or intolerant to say they were right. It's still the case too.

So, yeah, that's why I take the attitude "meh". Not in relation to the actual acts and the affect they have on the individuals concerned and their families but because we display all of this outrage about a problem that we created.

I see no rational end to this and, quite honestly, I can only see it getting worse. It is to be hoped that all the Western governments have got some well thought out plan of action on the back burner to deal with the fall out of us stopping using all off this black sticky stuff in a few years because the middle east is going to absolutely implode when the money stops flowing. You have countries which essentially have entirely artificial borders and which have done fk-all to sensibly invest the trillions they have made from their windfall over the past 120 years and are going to descend into absolute warzones of tribal factions when it all comes crashing down. Hundreds of thousands, or millions, of Saudi religionists seeking asylum in Western countries does not bear thinking about.

Edited by AJL308 on Thursday 29th October 11:57

W11PEL

1,029 posts

162 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
And then out roll the usual WOKE meaningless platitudes from the usual all and sundry.

I don’t know who’s more brainwashed. The Islamic nutters who run amok slaughtering the infidels or the Islington style /Grauniad/Trump despising set who view the world per their Uni/MSM indoctrination.

Ain’t altruism a beautiful thing.



Edited by W11PEL on Thursday 29th October 11:53

youngsyr

14,742 posts

191 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
Taylor James said:
youngsyr said:
Absolutely horrific and unjustifiable attack and two wrongs certainly don't make a right, but it seems to me that a lot of people feel that these attacks come out of nowhere?

Let's not forget that our hands aren't entirely clean either - the UK was part of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq not so long ago on highly dubious grounds. We also backed the US when they threw the right to a fair trial out the window, secretly extradited dozens of individuals and tortured more in those countries.

Again, that doesn't justify these attacks, but the attackers aren't the only ones we should be looking to blame and we should all be aware of the consequences of our foreign policy actions.
Sounds a lot like justification to me.
Not a justification at all, but in trying to find a solution, let's look at both sides of the story - something that no-one else has yet mentioned in this thread.

AJL308

6,390 posts

155 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
aeropilot said:
hiccy18 said:
poo at Paul's said:
Anecdotally, France always seems far easier to get hold of other weapons, like big knives, even tasers, cs gas etc compared to the UK.
I think that's not anecdotal, it's just a fact that the UK has probably the tightest weapon laws in the world, certainly a lot tighter than France.
More to do with the fact that with the EU's obsession with open borders its a lot easier to bring weapons overland into France from the former Soviet bloc areas. The arms used at Bataclan from the Czech Republic.

Being an island, it just makes it a lot harder to do that, as there are by default specific points of entry into the UK that can be guarded/monitored.
You can put something in car/van in eastern europe and pretty much just drive to France.
And this is the point I have made many times. You cannot ram together so many countries which are so different in their social, legal political and economic realities, chuck away all the borders and not expect to have st like this happen. The guns used at the Bataclan were, I believe, actually from Slovakia. They were bought there legally (or perhaps in some grey legal area) as deactivated weapons. However they weren't deactivated they were apparently movie prop guns modified to fire blanks. They are relatively easily converted back to fire live ammo. As I was saying, we express horror when these things happen but it is st that we have brought upon ourselves. You cannot combine a country where you can buy that sort of thing with a country where it has never been legal to own, discard the borders and then be outraged when this sort of things happens.

Tyre Smoke

23,018 posts

260 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
youngsyr said:
Not a justification at all, but in trying to find a solution, let's look at both sides of the story - something that no-one else has yet mentioned in this thread.
Well, you really won't get that from the bigots like AJL308 on this thread. Because all Muslims are a medieval bunch apparently. Until he wants a curry. Or a taxi at 3am. Or something from the 24hr garage late at night. No, they're medieval. Not hard working people with no extremist religious views at all. Nope, they're clearly all murderous ragheads.

AJL308

6,390 posts

155 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
Tyre Smoke said:
youngsyr said:
Not a justification at all, but in trying to find a solution, let's look at both sides of the story - something that no-one else has yet mentioned in this thread.
Well, you really won't get that from the bigots like AJL308 on this thread. Because all Muslims are a medieval bunch apparently. Until he wants a curry. Or a taxi at 3am. Or something from the 24hr garage late at night. No, they're medieval. Not hard working people with no extremist religious views at all. Nope, they're clearly all murderous ragheads.
And so it begins - the cry of bigot or racist to try to dismiss the Elephant in the room. I never referred to all Muslims, I referred to the religion specifically. Argue it all you want but it is a medieval religion with outdated values. The fact that on the other thread people are saying that even the "moderate" Muslims they work with express some sort of sympathy for members of their religion who behead innocents tells you that the religion is not a nice one.

s1962a

5,263 posts

161 months

Thursday 29th October 2020
quotequote all
W11PEL said:
And then out roll the usual WOKE meaningless platitudes from the usual all and sundry.

I don’t know who’s more brainwashed. The Islamic nutters who run amok slaughtering the infidels or the Islington style /Grauniad/Trump despising set who view the world per their Uni/MSM indoctrination.

Ain’t altruism a beautiful thing.
The people I really feel sorry for are the ones that think that somehow we can turn back time to the utopia that pre-immigration Britain was. You know, when it was all green fields and people (of the same colour) just got on. It aint gonna happen, no matter how much you wish it.