46th President of the United States, Joe Biden

46th President of the United States, Joe Biden

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HM-2

5,814 posts

133 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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tangerine_sedge said:
HM-2 said:
RiseUp said:
Also, an interesting article here comparing Democratic states vs red states. It seems lock downs have little effect long term.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-colu...
WRT "red states" doing better than "blue states", it's important to consider the fact that blue states are typically much more urban, with significantly higher population densities, than red states. Therefore a pathogen spread in the way that Covid-19 is would likely impact blue states to a higher degree, as a greater proportion of their population lives within an environment that's ideal for its transfer between hosts.

The fact that rural red states see lower R numbers isn't evidence that red states have handled the crisis better, it's evidence they're less populated.
I think theres more to it than that though? If we compare a lockdown state like California with an open state like Florida, we see a similar outcome - why? I'm aware that these are cherry picked states (California has done badly for a lockdown state, and Florida has done well for an open state), but why similar outcomes for such a different approach?

I can only assume that there are other factors massively affecting outcomes that will become clear when further data analysis is carried out over the next few years...
California does still have a somewhat higher proportion of its population than Florida being urban (IIRC something like 95% to 91%) but you're right, there are a lot of other factors to consider. Chief amongst which is the fact that lockdowns have primarily been a reactive action, in response to high transmission rates, rather than a proactive measure designed to limit spread generally.

Currently California has ~199.5 cases per 100,000 citizens and Florida 253.6- that's a per-capita rate 27% higher in Florida.

Fundoreen

2,209 posts

47 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
HM-2 said:
pquinn said:
over_the_hill said:
What has happened to Biden (and Harris for that matter).
Since the inauguration there has barely been any mention of either of them in the press.

Previously on a more than daily basis it was Trump signs executive order, Trump goes to play golf, Trump had cottage pie for dinner yesterday .....
Combination of them being dull and mostly concentrating on boring domestic stuff. If you aren't into US politics it mostly isn't newsworthy as either news or entertainment.
Competence is boring. With the exception of the extreme right, who are still dredging up conspiracy theories, the rest of the press has moved onto other things that are actually engrossing, rather than "career politicians get things done with minimum of fuss and swearing".
Its because they are busy doing the job. Trump was the laziest bd in the world (apart from boris) Spent all his time doing the equivelent of that bloke/woman that hangs around chatting at work.
Obviously this impresses a great many americans. They must love a good natter to make the day go faster.

Byker28i

33,841 posts

181 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
RiseUp said:
Byker, what's your views on why Florida has fared the same, if not better than similar climate Democratic states who imposed harsher restrictions and masks?

Also, an interesting article here comparing Democratic states vs red states. It seems lock downs have little effect long term.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-colu...
There's a number of reasons. I have friends in Tampa and at one point Florida was 3rd worse state for cases and deaths, at the same time were covering up the numbers. Rebekah Jones was fired as a whisltblower to that effect, she filed a whistleblower complaint alleging that she had refused demands to falsify data, including an order to present the state’s 18% test positivity rate as being under 10%.

As for other states. NY was heavily hit, but then was a transit hub for the US and was hit early on when everyone was scrambling what to do...
Some of the GOP run states are rural and so were hit quite late on, or not hit as bad, just because there's little movement of people (unless to to trump rally biggrin )

Red states have significantly far more cases in relation to population than the blue states. However, for deaths the effect is if anything in the opposite direction, but is very small and statistically very weak and insignificant.

One possible explanation for the discrepancy between the results for cases and deaths is as follows. Deaths in many blue states (NY, NJ, MA, CT, perhaps CA …) were concentrated in the early months. Those states had the major air connections to China and Europe, and therefore were hit at a time when no one knew the best way to treat Covid patients, and there were big bottlenecks of equipment and medicines.
https://www.princeton.edu/~dixitak/home/CovidRedVs...

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/01/...

As ever with Statistics, you can use them to support any argument. It also didn't help that the trump administration stopped reporting them, hid numbers to try to avoid blame
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/...

At the same time, Cuomo is accused of hiding numbers
https://abcnews.go.com/US/cuomos-office-hid-nursin...

So with that - do we really know what the comparisons are? I suspect the rural (favours GOP) vs packed density populations (favours Dems) probably has more to do with the numbers?

Lockdowns as we've seen in the UK, proper ones with restriction of contact, are the only way of controlling this until we get vaccinated. We saw this in lockdown 1 when everyone mostly stayed home, but they've been watered down ever since. It doesn't work if people continue to mix, ignore precautions.
The message from trump was very anti all sensible precautions such as lockdowns, masks etc, so it's not surprising many of his continued supporters have the same opinions.

But it's not my field of speciality, you need MX5-biologist and others for that

Edited by Byker28i on Wednesday 3rd March 13:26

hidetheelephants

16,950 posts

157 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Trump was (quite rightly) criticised for his dismissal of covid and false information (bleach, anyone?). However some also blamed him for the actions, or lack of them, on the ground.

Months on, and despite Biden's rhetoric, States are opening up at an accelerating pace. Meanwhile, democrat States that were used as poster boys are now coming under fire for behaviour that may have caused many unnecessary deaths.

Will those who criticised Trump offer the same criticism of Biden? Or will they accept the POTUS does not have the power to control individual States' response to Covid?
We should criticise Biden because of states's rights? This is desperate stuff.
RiseUp said:
Byker, what's your views on why Florida has fared the same, if not better than similar climate Democratic states who imposed harsher restrictions and masks?

Also, an interesting article here comparing Democratic states vs red states. It seems lock downs have little effect long term.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-colu...
If you look at the death rate chart Florida has shanked it badly; their death rate in the Thanksgiving/Christmas peak is huge, their performance is terrible; NY has held the death rate down. This article is rubbish.

Byker28i

33,841 posts

181 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Ronald still trying desperately to follow the gameplan


Remember

The released audio of Jared Kushner suggesting deferring action on reopening to the governors was a political calculation — a successful reopening could be credited to the President, but any failure would be blamed on the governors instead.

This raises questions as to whether all federal policies on Covid-19 were selected with Election Day in mind. On testing, for example, “the states have to own the testing. The federal government should not own the testing…it’s got to be up to the governors,” says Kushner in an apparent attempt to shift any blame for testing failures onto the states.

With Election Day approaching, the Trump administration seems to be pinning its reelection odds to this Covid-19 blame-shifting. The plan is simple: the federal government sets out guidelines for reopening and testing but provides little substantive support; if the states fail to control their outbreaks, they take the blame, and the federal government moves on.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2020...


Vox took an attempt to answer the question. So how did America get here?

The primary answer lies in President Donald Trump and Republican leaders in Congress, who have collectively abdicated the federal government’s role in addressing the outbreak or even acknowledging its severity. From Trump’s borderline denialist messaging on Covid-19 to Congress’s inability to pass broader economic relief, the country has been left in a place where states, local governments, and the public have to fend for themselves — and none of them have the resources to deal with the coronavirus on their own.

Trump and his allies have also actively worked to sideline the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, crippling the agency’s ability to provide guidance to states and others that have now been left out on their own.

At the same time, there are serious structural issues that hindered states’ and the public’s ability to act. Experts have long argued that the US’s public health infrastructure is underresourced and ill prepared for a serious crisis, and the pandemic has exposed this many times over: Nearly a year into the pandemic, no state has capacities for testing and contact tracing that most experts would consider adequate.

And the lack of economic relief has made it much harder for people to stay home and business owners to close down, faced with the decision of mitigating the coronavirus’s spread or failing to pay their mortgage and other bills.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22176191/covid-...

Now before youknowwho starts, Biden has a clear plan, written and delivered (unlike trumps healthcare plan)
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021...

which includes: The COVID-19 Response office will establish clear lines of communications with all governors, state public health officials and immunization managers, and local leaders.


unrepentant

20,317 posts

220 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
over_the_hill said:
What has happened to Biden (and Harris for that matter).
Since the inauguration there has barely been any mention of either of them in the press.

Previously on a more than daily basis it was Trump signs executive order, Trump goes to play golf, Trump had cottage pie for dinner yesterday .....
Eh?

We have a full press conference from Jen Psaki every day and the President makes statements and appears on TV most days.

Unlike his predecessor he actually works at the job of being President so you don't see his playing golf, giving the Presidential Medal of Freedom to fascists or rage tweeting. He's getting on with the job of fixing the mess left by the Tangerine Turd.

unrepentant

20,317 posts

220 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
pquinn said:
Byker - ever though of posting a single list of links to your favourite stories of the day, instead of flooding the place with massive blocks of copied text usually without acknowledgement?

Links are interesting, copyright infringement much less so.
Fell free to go away.

Crook

5,550 posts

188 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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PRTVR said:
gregs656 said:
PRTVR said:
Do you think its a good idea to allow ballot papers without recognisable signatures ?
As I said earlier everything in America is polarised.
I don’t recall ever signing a ballot, or presenting ID to vote.

All this stuff is the Republicans complaining their voter obstruction was somewhat undermined thanks to COVID.

They need to get their st together over the minimum wage though.

Edited by gregs656 on Wednesday 3rd March 02:45
The signature part was reference to postal voting, its a requirement in the UK.
I agree on the minimum wage but sadly I think it will fail, big business has to much control and some do not see it in their best interest.
He should get a hammering over this. Obviously I don't know how much of an influence campaigning on the minimum wage influenced Bernie's voters but if there is a way to get them to turn their backs on Biden it's got to be by dropping something that emotive. Keeping it would have been such a great achievement by the Democrats.
Promise




gregs656

6,480 posts

145 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
Crook said:
He should get a hammering over this. Obviously I don't know how much of an influence campaigning on the minimum wage influenced Bernie's voters but if there is a way to get them to turn their backs on Biden it's got to be by dropping something that emotive. Keeping it would have been such a great achievement by the Democrats.
Promise
I agree. They could move forward with it too, they are choosing not to.

On California and Florida. California (like the UK) seem to have flip flopped on the rules which seems to be the worst way of going about it.

kowalski655

11,866 posts

107 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
Crook said:
He should get a hammering over this. Obviously I don't know how much of an influence campaigning on the minimum wage influenced Bernie's voters but if there is a way to get them to turn their backs on Biden it's got to be by dropping something that emotive. Keeping it would have been such a great achievement by the Democrats.
Promise
The problem is A-hole DINOs refusing to vote for it if in the package, and no GOP senators willing to do the right thing. AIUI there is just one chance to get it through via reconciliation, and the $1.9T package is probably seen as more important in the scheme of things.
Sanders and others are looking at taxing companies that don't pay $15

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat

11,637 posts

59 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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hidetheelephants said:
We should criticise Biden because of states's rights? This is desperate stuff.
What you shouldn't do is double dip; criticise the previous President for failing to do things, when the new one can't do them either. Or. Credit the current President for things he didn't control when you failed to praise the old one in the same way.

The double standards employed on this and other threads are there for all to see.

If Biden can't be criticised for the death rate because he doesn't control what individual states do, then neither should Trump. If Biden is praised for the falling death rate, then so should Trump, as the lag between cause and effect means the results we're seeing now were influenced largely under his watch.

Byker28i

33,841 posts

181 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
Breaking on @MSNBC: The FBI and DHS have issued a joint intel bulletin warning that domestic extremists have discussed plans to "take control of the U.S. Capitol and remove democratic lawmakers on or about the 4th of March." March 4 is important to QAnon believers as thats the old inauguration day and they believe trump will come back and regain control

https://www.msnbc.com/craig-melvin/watch/dhs-fbi-g...

HM-2

5,814 posts

133 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
If Biden can't be criticised for the death rate because he doesn't control what individual states do, then neither should Trump.
Nice non sequitur.

Imagine genuinely believing that a political leader whose calls not to relax restrictions are ignored by states is equally as culpable for the outcome as a political leader whose demands not to institute restrictions are obeyed.

paulguitar

10,970 posts

77 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
HM-2 said:
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
If Biden can't be criticised for the death rate because he doesn't control what individual states do, then neither should Trump.
Nice non sequitur.

Imagine genuinely believing that a political leader whose calls not to relax restrictions are ignored by states is equally as culpable for the outcome as a political leader whose demands not to institute restrictions are obeyed.
Indeed, it's clear as day trump did nothing to help the virus situation and a lot of time appeared to be trying to make it worse. It's unfathomable to try to defend him.

Byker28i

33,841 posts

181 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
HM-2 said:
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
If Biden can't be criticised for the death rate because he doesn't control what individual states do, then neither should Trump.
Nice non sequitur.

Imagine genuinely believing that a political leader whose calls not to relax restrictions are ignored by states is equally as culpable for the outcome as a political leader whose demands not to institute restrictions are obeyed.
Ronald likes to ignore anything posted to push his flawed opinions. He knows there is a huge difference between bBidens actions and written plan and trumps indifference, but choses to play games instead...


...whilst accusing others of trolling. Laughable as always.

Crook

5,550 posts

188 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
hidetheelephants said:
We should criticise Biden because of states's rights? This is desperate stuff.
What you shouldn't do is double dip; criticise the previous President for failing to do things, when the new one can't do them either. Or. Credit the current President for things he didn't control when you failed to praise the old one in the same way.

The double standards employed on this and other threads are there for all to see.

If Biden can't be criticised for the death rate because he doesn't control what individual states do, then neither should Trump. If Biden is praised for the falling death rate, then so should Trump, as the lag between cause and effect means the results we're seeing now were influenced largely under his watch.
I would agree with that in general however Trump absolutely, I was going to type 'mismanaged' but that would have implied he tried to manage it and he didn't. He had the different states bidding against each other for supplies. He praised states that opened up and incited hatred and ultimately an attempted kidnapping of Governor Whitmer.

That is not the same at all.

If a President can't do something because of the mental way US government works but tries to encourage them to do what's best for the State/Country that is absolutely not the same as a President threatening to withhold aid because they are "not nice to him", operate a 'highest bidder' aid supply and openly encouraging the populace to ignore the State's government with demonstrations that did the complete opposite of what the State is trying to achieve.

There is no equivalence at all and suggesting there is is incredulous.


HM-2

5,814 posts

133 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
HM-2 said:
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
If Biden can't be criticised for the death rate because he doesn't control what individual states do, then neither should Trump.
Nice non sequitur.

Imagine genuinely believing that a political leader whose calls not to relax restrictions are ignored by states is equally as culpable for the outcome as a political leader whose demands not to institute restrictions are obeyed.
Ronald likes to ignore anything posted to push his flawed opinions. He knows there is a huge difference between bBidens actions and written plan and trumps indifference, but choses to play games instead...


...whilst accusing others of trolling. Laughable as always.
I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt but it's becoming increasingly clear that Ronald, along with another couple of regular contributors, have no interest in discussing in good faith.

paulguitar

10,970 posts

77 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
HM-2 said:
I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt but it's becoming increasingly clear that Ronald, along with another couple of regular contributors, have no interest in discussing in good faith.
There do seem to be a few that apparently just want to constantly argue.




RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat

11,637 posts

59 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
There do seem to be a few that apparently just want to constantly argue.
Disagreeing with the thread consensus is arguing?

All I argue for is judging all politicians by the same standards, rather than a stream of partisan and often irrelevant content.

HM-2

5,814 posts

133 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
All I argue for is judging all politicians by the same standards, rather than a stream of partisan and often irrelevant content.
You don't, though. You demand an equal response to entirely different and inarguably unequal events and accuse anyone who questions this of double standards.