46th President of the United States, Joe Biden

46th President of the United States, Joe Biden

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anonymous-user

55 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
I don't understand why people can't vote online these days.

hidetheelephants

24,545 posts

194 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
PRTVR said:
Byker28i said:
Meanwhile, GOP lawmakers just try to make up new rules in voting obstruction. 106 new bills in 28 states threaten to limit mail-in voting access, add voter ID requirements, and make voter rolls more elusive, according to an analysis by the Brennan Center for Justice. Compared to only 35 such bills in 15 states a year ago, this fervor is “grounded in a rash of baseless and racist allegations of voter fraud and election irregularities.”

Well they think they lost because of mail in voting, so its only to be expected after years of voting restrictions imposed on anyone that doesn't vote GOP.
How is it racist to only have eligible people vote ?
It's racist if the restriction you impose affects some ethnic groups differently to others; we can take it to the bank that the rules these GoP asshats have drafted will do this. We can also take it to the bank that the NAACP etc will sue to overturn all this nonsense.

vaud

50,637 posts

156 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
I don't understand why people can't vote online these days.
The platform would become a massive target for a multitude of attacks from penetration to denial of service, etc

Not everyone has access to online.

anonymous-user

55 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
vaud said:
The platform would become a massive target for a multitude of attacks from penetration to denial of service, etc

Not everyone has access to online.
I can view, file and pay my personal and corporate taxes online. I can access my bank and move money around. I can pay my council tax. Lots of targets exist already and we seem to live with it just fine.

People who can't vote online can go in person or postal vote, in any case.

Flibble

6,476 posts

182 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
Not if they restrict postal votes and close all the rural polling stations.

rscott

14,779 posts

192 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
vaud said:
The platform would become a massive target for a multitude of attacks from penetration to denial of service, etc

Not everyone has access to online.
I can view, file and pay my personal and corporate taxes online. I can access my bank and move money around. I can pay my council tax. Lots of targets exist already and we seem to live with it just fine.

People who can't vote online can go in person or postal vote, in any case.
Most US states allow early voting in person - but Texas decided to only allow one drop-off location per county.
Doesn't sound too bad until you discover that Harris County, which happens to tend to be less Republican than other counties, has 4 million people. All of whom were supposed to use a single location to drop off their votes. That change was imposed a month before the election.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/...


Or https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/u...

"On a local level, the changes can be stark. McLennan county, home to Waco, Texas, closed 44% of its polling places from 2012 to 2018, despite the fact that its population grew by more than 15,000 people during the same time period, with more than two-thirds of that growth coming from Black and Latinx residents.

In 2012, there was one polling place for every 4,000 residents. By 2018 that figure had dropped to one polling place per 7,700 residents. A 2019 paper by University of Houston political scientists found that after the county’s transition to vote centers, more voting locations were closed in Latinx neighborhoods than in non-Latinx neighborhoods, and that Latinx people had to travel farther to vote than non-Hispanic whites."

So Texas very obviously making it harder for minorities to vote..

anonymous-user

55 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
Governments should make it easier to vote, not more difficult. The obvious caveat being protecting against fraud (I don't believe fraud is a widescale issue in western democracies).

In the US you have a system where States can set their own rules. It would be sensible to level the playing field in Federal elections so the rules were the same country wide. I wonder if Biden will seek to level up the rules to prevent the Republican attempts to limit voting?

rscott

14,779 posts

192 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Governments should make it easier to vote, not more difficult. The obvious caveat being protecting against fraud (I don't believe fraud is a widescale issue in western democracies).

In the US you have a system where States can set their own rules. It would be sensible to level the playing field in Federal elections so the rules were the same country wide. I wonder if Biden will seek to level up the rules to prevent the Republican attempts to limit voting?
They tried that before - there was a law passed requiring many of the Southern states (where voter suppression had been shown to occur before) to get Federal approval before changing voting rules. That was struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional.

Some of the gerrymandering of districts is astounding, usually, but not always, by Republicans.

PRTVR

7,124 posts

222 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
HM-2 said:
PRTVR said:
Byker28i said:
Meanwhile, GOP lawmakers just try to make up new rules in voting obstruction. 106 new bills in 28 states threaten to limit mail-in voting access, add voter ID requirements, and make voter rolls more elusive, according to an analysis by the Brennan Center for Justice. Compared to only 35 such bills in 15 states a year ago, this fervor is “grounded in a rash of baseless and racist allegations of voter fraud and election irregularities.”

Well they think they lost because of mail in voting, so its only to be expected after years of voting restrictions imposed on anyone that doesn't vote GOP.
How is it racist to only have eligible people vote ?
Cases of electoral fraud in the US are so vanishingly rare (an estimated 70 fraudulent votes during the 2020 election from a total of over 155,000,000 ballots) that legislation simply isn't needed to address a nonexistent problem.

It's well known that ID laws discriminate against legal minorities as well as several other categories of voter including those from low income backgrounds, the elderly and disabled. In the 7 states that currently have stringent photo ID laws, every single form of accepted ID requires both payment and the navigation of significant bureaucracy just to apply. Thus poses obvious access challenges for non-native English speakers, those from low income socioeconomic groups, and anyone who may require assistance to complete requisite paperwork- especially in a time such as now.

The reason for the Republican push for more stringent voting regulations is specifically to try and depress votes amongst groups that vote predominantly Democrat. Proposed tightening of mail-in ballots, fyir instance, are designed predominantly to make it harder for students, who may be resident in one state but living in another to study, to vote. And measures which have seen huge numbers of polling stations closed in many rural counties are aimed at disenfranchising those too poor to avoid the cars required to travel to cast votes.

Edited by HM-2 on Sunday 21st February 09:52
Driving is not considered a luxury in the USA its considered a necessity, an old pickup can be purchased for very little money , if you live outside the main metropolitan areas.
Since taken office gas prices have increased in America and look to keep rising, who will that effect the most, the poor,
You cannot pretend to be looking after the poor whilst at the same time as you make them poorer.

The UK is introducing a similar requirement for voting, personally I think its a good idea.

https://www.fahrenheit211.net/2021/02/19/uk-govern...



kowalski655

14,658 posts

144 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
Would passing the John Lewis Voting Rights Act make much difference?IIRC it reinstates a lot struck down by SCOTUS

Crafty_

13,298 posts

201 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
Not to mention Republicans have placed non official ballot boxes that the authorities deemed illegal: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/12/us/politics/cal...


rscott

14,779 posts

192 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
PRTVR said:
HM-2 said:
PRTVR said:
Byker28i said:
Meanwhile, GOP lawmakers just try to make up new rules in voting obstruction. 106 new bills in 28 states threaten to limit mail-in voting access, add voter ID requirements, and make voter rolls more elusive, according to an analysis by the Brennan Center for Justice. Compared to only 35 such bills in 15 states a year ago, this fervor is “grounded in a rash of baseless and racist allegations of voter fraud and election irregularities.”

Well they think they lost because of mail in voting, so its only to be expected after years of voting restrictions imposed on anyone that doesn't vote GOP.
How is it racist to only have eligible people vote ?
Cases of electoral fraud in the US are so vanishingly rare (an estimated 70 fraudulent votes during the 2020 election from a total of over 155,000,000 ballots) that legislation simply isn't needed to address a nonexistent problem.

It's well known that ID laws discriminate against legal minorities as well as several other categories of voter including those from low income backgrounds, the elderly and disabled. In the 7 states that currently have stringent photo ID laws, every single form of accepted ID requires both payment and the navigation of significant bureaucracy just to apply. Thus poses obvious access challenges for non-native English speakers, those from low income socioeconomic groups, and anyone who may require assistance to complete requisite paperwork- especially in a time such as now.

The reason for the Republican push for more stringent voting regulations is specifically to try and depress votes amongst groups that vote predominantly Democrat. Proposed tightening of mail-in ballots, fyir instance, are designed predominantly to make it harder for students, who may be resident in one state but living in another to study, to vote. And measures which have seen huge numbers of polling stations closed in many rural counties are aimed at disenfranchising those too poor to avoid the cars required to travel to cast votes.

Edited by HM-2 on Sunday 21st February 09:52
Driving is not considered a luxury in the USA its considered a necessity, an old pickup can be purchased for very little money , if you live outside the main metropolitan areas.
Since taken office gas prices have increased in America and look to keep rising, who will that effect the most, the poor,
You cannot pretend to be looking after the poor whilst at the same time as you make them poorer.

The UK is introducing a similar requirement for voting, personally I think its a good idea.

https://www.fahrenheit211.net/2021/02/19/uk-govern...
My colleagues in Atlanta regularly queue for 2-3 hours to vote - simply because there aren't many polling stations. Their boss is understanding of the situation and allows them as much time as they need, but not everyone is that lucky.
He's concerned about the changes there which aim to remove postal votes from many - he's voted by post for 20 years as he spends much of his time travelling, so never knows if he'd be in town to vote..(well apart from last year..).

One in Texas took 5 hours to vote last year - simply because of the lack of polling stations. Last time he voted, it took 20 minutes, but he since moved to a mainly black area and suddenly it's more difficult.

HM-2

12,467 posts

170 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
PRTVR said:
Driving is not considered a luxury in the USA its considered a necessity
8% of American households have no access to a vehicle. A good proportion of that are city dwellers with reasonable access to public transport but to pretend that everyone eligible to vote has easy access to a car and the ability to travel 50+ miles to do so is frankly absurd.


PRTVR said:
Since taken office gas prices have increased in America and look to keep rising
So you always confuse correlation with causation, or is it only when its convenient for your arguments?

captain_cynic

12,084 posts

96 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
rscott said:
My colleagues in Atlanta regularly queue for 2-3 hours to vote - simply because there aren't many polling stations. Their boss is understanding of the situation and allows them as much time as they need, but not everyone is that lucky.
He's concerned about the changes there which aim to remove postal votes from many - he's voted by post for 20 years as he spends much of his time travelling, so never knows if he'd be in town to vote..(well apart from last year..).

One in Texas took 5 hours to vote last year - simply because of the lack of polling stations. Last time he voted, it took 20 minutes, but he since moved to a mainly black area and suddenly it's more difficult.
Yep it's so much of a problem that my company gives US workers 4 hours VTO (Voting Time Off).

It's utterly alien to them that I get my vote done in 15 mins before or after work.

spikeyhead

17,353 posts

198 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
rscott said:
My colleagues in Atlanta regularly queue for 2-3 hours to vote - simply because there aren't many polling stations. Their boss is understanding of the situation and allows them as much time as they need, but not everyone is that lucky.
He's concerned about the changes there which aim to remove postal votes from many - he's voted by post for 20 years as he spends much of his time travelling, so never knows if he'd be in town to vote..(well apart from last year..).

One in Texas took 5 hours to vote last year - simply because of the lack of polling stations. Last time he voted, it took 20 minutes, but he since moved to a mainly black area and suddenly it's more difficult.
Yep it's so much of a problem that my company gives US workers 4 hours VTO (Voting Time Off).

It's utterly alien to them that I get my vote done in 15 mins before or after work.
That's about how long mines taken including the stroll there and back, and I've never lived further than a 5 minute stroll from a polling station.

anonymous-user

55 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
Forna so called advanced nation, the US' inability to run an efficient election is a joke. Hours queuing to vote and days and days to count in some States. The officials in Sunderland would think it absurd.

PRTVR

7,124 posts

222 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
rscott said:
PRTVR said:
HM-2 said:
PRTVR said:
Byker28i said:
Meanwhile, GOP lawmakers just try to make up new rules in voting obstruction. 106 new bills in 28 states threaten to limit mail-in voting access, add voter ID requirements, and make voter rolls more elusive, according to an analysis by the Brennan Center for Justice. Compared to only 35 such bills in 15 states a year ago, this fervor is “grounded in a rash of baseless and racist allegations of voter fraud and election irregularities.”

Well they think they lost because of mail in voting, so its only to be expected after years of voting restrictions imposed on anyone that doesn't vote GOP.
How is it racist to only have eligible people vote ?
Cases of electoral fraud in the US are so vanishingly rare (an estimated 70 fraudulent votes during the 2020 election from a total of over 155,000,000 ballots) that legislation simply isn't needed to address a nonexistent problem.

It's well known that ID laws discriminate against legal minorities as well as several other categories of voter including those from low income backgrounds, the elderly and disabled. In the 7 states that currently have stringent photo ID laws, every single form of accepted ID requires both payment and the navigation of significant bureaucracy just to apply. Thus poses obvious access challenges for non-native English speakers, those from low income socioeconomic groups, and anyone who may require assistance to complete requisite paperwork- especially in a time such as now.

The reason for the Republican push for more stringent voting regulations is specifically to try and depress votes amongst groups that vote predominantly Democrat. Proposed tightening of mail-in ballots, fyir instance, are designed predominantly to make it harder for students, who may be resident in one state but living in another to study, to vote. And measures which have seen huge numbers of polling stations closed in many rural counties are aimed at disenfranchising those too poor to avoid the cars required to travel to cast votes.

Edited by HM-2 on Sunday 21st February 09:52
Driving is not considered a luxury in the USA its considered a necessity, an old pickup can be purchased for very little money , if you live outside the main metropolitan areas.
Since taken office gas prices have increased in America and look to keep rising, who will that effect the most, the poor,
You cannot pretend to be looking after the poor whilst at the same time as you make them poorer.

The UK is introducing a similar requirement for voting, personally I think its a good idea.

https://www.fahrenheit211.net/2021/02/19/uk-govern...
My colleagues in Atlanta regularly queue for 2-3 hours to vote - simply because there aren't many polling stations. Their boss is understanding of the situation and allows them as much time as they need, but not everyone is that lucky.
He's concerned about the changes there which aim to remove postal votes from many - he's voted by post for 20 years as he spends much of his time travelling, so never knows if he'd be in town to vote..(well apart from last year..).

One in Texas took 5 hours to vote last year - simply because of the lack of polling stations. Last time he voted, it took 20 minutes, but he since moved to a mainly black area and suddenly it's more difficult.
I can see that problem, and for some a postal vote is a necessity, but it the requirements for verification to postal vote are met prior the vote why would he not be able to continue with postal voting ?
I see in the UK the proposal is for the council to provide free a card that permits one to vote if you do not have a photographic means of identification.

vaud

50,637 posts

156 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
I can view, file and pay my personal and corporate taxes online. I can access my bank and move money around. I can pay my council tax. Lots of targets exist already and we seem to live with it just fine.

People who can't vote online can go in person or postal vote, in any case.
And those targets are attacked continuously with many fraud attempts. Cyber crime is at an all time high.

I’m not sure what online voting buys us (it would be expensive) versus postal and in person.

HM-2

12,467 posts

170 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
vaud said:
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
I can view, file and pay my personal and corporate taxes online. I can access my bank and move money around. I can pay my council tax. Lots of targets exist already and we seem to live with it just fine.

People who can't vote online can go in person or postal vote, in any case.
And those targets are attacked continuously with many fraud attempts. Cyber crime is at an all time high.

I’m not sure what online voting buys us (it would be expensive) versus postal and in person.
To my eye the biggest problem is probably denial of service rather than fraud. If someone knocks your bank offline for a day then it's normally no big deal. If someone knocks an online voting system over for a day, you suddenly can't have an election.

The costs of architecting something sufficiently secure and resilient but yet accessible from every home laptop or mobile device in the country at the same time would be astounding.

vaud

50,637 posts

156 months

Sunday 21st February 2021
quotequote all
HM-2 said:
To my eye the biggest problem is probably denial of service rather than fraud. If someone knocks your bank offline for a day then it's normally no big deal. If someone knocks an online voting system over for a day, you suddenly can't have an election.

The costs of architecting something sufficiently secure and resilient but yet accessible from every home laptop or mobile device in the country at the same time would be astounding.
I'd argue that it might not be possible for voting on the day.

It might be possible to architect a system that allowed online voting as a first preference up to one week before the election but then required a postal vote if you hadn't yet voted.

Make it less time sensitive.

Still, would be one heck of a target. Sometimes paper and snail mail beat a system.

By comparison - just as a car boot full of hard drives is still quicker than a fat internet pipe for data transfer over short - medium distances.