46th President of the United States, Joe Biden

46th President of the United States, Joe Biden

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JeffreyD

2,285 posts

5 months

Friday 16th April
quotequote all
Pulling out of. Afghanistan seems like a big deal.

I presume all the America First wingnuts are all really happy about Biden now.

rscott

11,839 posts

156 months

Friday 16th April
quotequote all
JeffreyD said:
Pulling out of. Afghanistan seems like a big deal.

I presume all the America First wingnuts are all really happy about Biden now.
They're all asking why leftists say it was bad when Trump said he'd do it, but good when Biden does.

Completely ignoring the fact that Biden's doing it in agreement with NATO.

andy_s

17,499 posts

224 months

Friday 16th April
quotequote all












Afghanistan is a complex situation, even the media acknowledge the ambiguities...

silentbrown

6,419 posts

81 months

Friday 16th April
quotequote all
andy_s said:
Afghanistan is a complex situation, even the media acknowledge the ambiguities...
Yes. Christina Lamb and Rory Stewart were interviewed on R4 on Wednesday. Both saying it's unlikely to end well for Afghanistan.

rscott

11,839 posts

156 months

Friday 16th April
quotequote all
silentbrown said:
andy_s said:
Afghanistan is a complex situation, even the media acknowledge the ambiguities...
Yes. Christina Lamb and Rory Stewart were interviewed on R4 on Wednesday. Both saying it's unlikely to end well for Afghanistan.
At least Biden is working with NATO on the withdrawal plan though. That's the massive difference between this and Trump's announcement.

captain_cynic

6,883 posts

60 months

Friday 16th April
quotequote all
rscott said:
silentbrown said:
andy_s said:
Afghanistan is a complex situation, even the media acknowledge the ambiguities...
Yes. Christina Lamb and Rory Stewart were interviewed on R4 on Wednesday. Both saying it's unlikely to end well for Afghanistan.
At least Biden is working with NATO on the withdrawal plan though. That's the massive difference between this and Trump's announcement.
Realistically it's 12 years too late.

Afghanistan was lost the day Dubya decided to go galavanting around Iraq rather than consolidate the good will gained by toppling the Taliban.

So I'd lambaste former president Obama the same as Trump for not ending that boondoggle. The difference is, whilst Obama made a few bad decisions in his presidency... Trump made them by the hour.

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat

12,330 posts

60 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
Yet more evidence Biden is no different. This time he backtracks on immigration to prevent losses in the midterms.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-5677872...

JeffreyD

2,285 posts

5 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Yet more evidence Biden is no different. This time he backtracks on immigration to prevent losses in the midterms.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-5677872...
No different to what?

Blib

37,655 posts

162 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
The most economically radical, left wing, anti- big business government since WW2.

This is going to a roller coaster. Hold on tight!!!

hehe

166 MM Barchetta

521 posts

22 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Yet more evidence Biden is no different. This time he backtracks on immigration to prevent losses in the midterms.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-5677872...
Now you’ve done it, you’ll feel the wrath of the Bidets, can’t you give the poor lambs a Saturday off.......hehe

It shouldn’t come as much of a surprise that no matter what colour you paint your fence, politicians will always be politicians.
It does seem to be a huge failure of his team though, at what point did signing off Trumps figures seem like a good idea?

HM-2

5,935 posts

134 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Yet more evidence Biden is no different. This time he backtracks on immigration to prevent losses in the midterms.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-5677872...
To be fair, it does say retaining the cap is only temporary and that they're looking to extend it next month...which rather rebuts the notion that it has anything to do with the midterms, which aren't for 18 months.

In their own words: ...set a final, increased refugee cap for the remainder of this fiscal year by May 15

paulguitar

11,153 posts

78 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
Sounds like it is a temporary measure to help clear up the glut that the anti-Biden crowd were previously bleating about. Not sure there is anything genuinely controversial going on here?

captain_cynic

6,883 posts

60 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
Sounds like it is a temporary measure to help clear up the glut that the anti-Biden crowd were previously bleating about. Not sure there is anything genuinely controversial going on here?
Yep, the state Trump left ICE in needs to be sorted out before anything else can happen on that front... Biden is concentrating on the larger issue at the moment, namely a pandemic that has killed millions of Americans because the last President pretended that pandemic didn't exist.

Tell me again how Biden is "as bad" as Trump.

JagLover

33,761 posts

200 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
rscott said:
At least Biden is working with NATO on the withdrawal plan though. That's the massive difference between this and Trump's announcement.
What difference does telling NATO make confused

The only significant military power in NATO (in terms of global force projection) is the US, which is the one withdrawing.

Not that I disagree with the decision to get out. There is no chance of building a stable state in Afghanistan. The most the US can ever hope to do is support factions which are less batsh*t crazy than other factions and less likely to export violence outside its borders. They can effectively do that through financial and military support without ever needing to put boots on the ground.

The whole fiasco, in both Afghanistan and Iraq, seemed to stem from the belief that what worked in post war Germany and Japan could also be made to work in very different, pre-modern in many ways, societies.

rscott

11,839 posts

156 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
JagLover said:
rscott said:
At least Biden is working with NATO on the withdrawal plan though. That's the massive difference between this and Trump's announcement.
What difference does telling NATO make confused

The only significant military power in NATO (in terms of global force projection) is the US, which is the one withdrawing.

Not that I disagree with the decision to get out. There is no chance of building a stable state in Afghanistan. The most the US can ever hope to do is support factions which are less batsh*t crazy than other factions and less likely to export violence outside its borders. They can effectively do that through financial and military support without ever needing to put boots on the ground.

The whole fiasco, in both Afghanistan and Iraq, seemed to stem from the belief that what worked in post war Germany and Japan could also be made to work in very different, pre-modern in many ways, societies.
The simple fact he's not just pulling out US troops unilaterally. He's working with NATO to co-ordinate their withdrawal.
Almost as though he wants to maintain good relationships with the rest of the world, like most normal world leaders would.

tangerine_sedge

2,466 posts

183 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
JagLover said:
What difference does telling NATO make confused

The only significant military power in NATO (in terms of global force projection) is the US, which is the one withdrawing.
When the caravan club hold a weekend rally, they turn up, hold the event, then tidy up after themselves leaving the field behind with just some slightly different coloured grass where their caravans and awnings were.

When the travellers hold an event, they leave a bunch of mess, human waste and general litter and detritus behind expecting someone else to tidy up behind them.

One of these is the Biden way, and the other is the Trump way. Hope that helps.

Gameface

16,379 posts

42 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
JagLover said:
What difference does telling NATO make confused
Are you kidding? rofl

JagLover

33,761 posts

200 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
rscott said:
JagLover said:
rscott said:
At least Biden is working with NATO on the withdrawal plan though. That's the massive difference between this and Trump's announcement.
What difference does telling NATO make confused

The only significant military power in NATO (in terms of global force projection) is the US, which is the one withdrawing.

Not that I disagree with the decision to get out. There is no chance of building a stable state in Afghanistan. The most the US can ever hope to do is support factions which are less batsh*t crazy than other factions and less likely to export violence outside its borders. They can effectively do that through financial and military support without ever needing to put boots on the ground.

The whole fiasco, in both Afghanistan and Iraq, seemed to stem from the belief that what worked in post war Germany and Japan could also be made to work in very different, pre-modern in many ways, societies.
The simple fact he's not just pulling out US troops unilaterally. He's working with NATO to co-ordinate their withdrawal.
Almost as though he wants to maintain good relationships with the rest of the world, like most normal world leaders would.
That is simply good diplomacy it doesn't change any fundamental fact on the grounds in Afghanistan.

If it was a good idea to scale back American troop deployment in preparation for leaving the country, then it is a good idea regardless of whether NATO is consulted or not. NATO is an organisation of countries sheltering under the American security umbrella. Of its members, aside from the USA, only the UK and France contribute any meaningful deployable forces. The rest of its members range from those who can defend their own borders to those issuing their troops with broomsticks to perform military exercises with.

In military terms America "consulting with NATO" is for the most part consulting with itself.

Biden is following the same fundamental policy as Trump in this area.

HM-2

5,935 posts

134 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
JagLover said:
The only significant military power in NATO (in terms of global force projection) is the US, which is the one withdrawing.
This only really holds true if you believe that there are only two-and-a-half significant military powered with global projection capability in existence.

Six of the top 15 global defence spenders are NATO member countries and at least two of them- the UK and France- possess global projection capability outweighing bigger spenders such as India or even China and both have proven themselves happy to conduct effectively unilateral military interventions abroad.

rscott

11,839 posts

156 months

Saturday 17th April
quotequote all
JagLover said:
rscott said:
JagLover said:
rscott said:
At least Biden is working with NATO on the withdrawal plan though. That's the massive difference between this and Trump's announcement.
What difference does telling NATO make confused

The only significant military power in NATO (in terms of global force projection) is the US, which is the one withdrawing.

Not that I disagree with the decision to get out. There is no chance of building a stable state in Afghanistan. The most the US can ever hope to do is support factions which are less batsh*t crazy than other factions and less likely to export violence outside its borders. They can effectively do that through financial and military support without ever needing to put boots on the ground.

The whole fiasco, in both Afghanistan and Iraq, seemed to stem from the belief that what worked in post war Germany and Japan could also be made to work in very different, pre-modern in many ways, societies.
The simple fact he's not just pulling out US troops unilaterally. He's working with NATO to co-ordinate their withdrawal.
Almost as though he wants to maintain good relationships with the rest of the world, like most normal world leaders would.
That is simply good diplomacy it doesn't change any fundamental fact on the grounds in Afghanistan.

If it was a good idea to scale back American troop deployment in preparation for leaving the country, then it is a good idea regardless of whether NATO is consulted or not. NATO is an organisation of countries sheltering under the American security umbrella. Of its members, aside from the USA, only the UK and France contribute any meaningful deployable forces. The rest of its members range from those who can defend their own borders to those issuing their troops with broomsticks to perform military exercises with.

In military terms America "consulting with NATO" is for the most part consulting with itself.

Biden is following the same fundamental policy as Trump in this area.
You asked what difference working with NATO makes - good to see you agree that it's good diplomacy. Something missing with the previous administration.