Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 10

Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 10

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Discussion

Evercross

3,097 posts

28 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Lim said:
Did you mean to not answer the 'How can it be binary, but also false that she could hold on?' bit?
I never said it was false - I said it was a pointless, ignorant statement.

The issue I had was with your 'she will probably go' as if she had a say in the consequences of being found guilty of breaking the Ministerial Code.

Uhtred

487 posts

6 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
techguyone said:
OK so assuming nippy & Salmond self destruct, who is going to step in to fill the void?

Bunter Blackford?

I still can't see the SNP dying until SLab get their st together and represent Scotland's socialist views, no one else is going to do it, strange as Labour could use those Scottish seats to aid it tremendously in a GE scenario.
Who in their right mind would actually want to take over right now, in the midst of a pandemic? Could Blackford be arsed going on tv every single day? Bet people would love that

Lim

2,274 posts

6 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Uhtred said:
techguyone said:
OK so assuming nippy & Salmond self destruct, who is going to step in to fill the void?

Bunter Blackford?

I still can't see the SNP dying until SLab get their st together and represent Scotland's socialist views, no one else is going to do it, strange as Labour could use those Scottish seats to aid it tremendously in a GE scenario.
Who in their right mind would actually want to take over right now, in the midst of a pandemic? Could Blackford be arsed going on tv every single day? Bet people would love that
Revealing interview with Andrew Leanord below. Useless. I know it couldn't be worse timing, but that betrays the urgency, that he needs to go ASAP

https://play.acast.com/s/timesredbox/whoisrichardl...

Evercross

3,097 posts

28 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Lim said:
Turning to the other side of the coin, if she is found innocent, or whatever the term is, what is your prediction for what will happen?
You are the one who said 'how long can she go on' but seem to think she will go on her terms.

I have already spelled out (countless times) what her terms are - to make it across the line in May and then hand over to a compliant successor who will be happy to keep her 'husband' in post as CEO of the SNP as it seems that all along this is what Salmond-gate (can we call it that) was all about.

As I said - MacKay was supposed to be that compliant successor, but his misdeeds caused the headache that was having to gerrymander Angus Robertson into selection for Holyrood candidacy by preventing Cherry from running.

However, every 'rumour' that has been postulated regarding the Salmond case and Sturgeon's involvement has turned out to be true. Some person or group of people know where the skeletons are and are drip-feeding the leaks, but doing so in such a way that they do not compromise legal process.

Now, bear in mind I have actually read the details of two legal documents that should not be discussed. If Sturgeon appears to be succeeding in attempting to set up the SNP so that she and her 'husband' can continue to control succession after she has left the post of leader, thus excluding those with ambition of leadership who are loyal to Salmond then they still have the 'nuclear option' which would be highly damaging to all concerned but would take the Murrells out the game at a stroke.

It is my opinion that the recent shift in control of the SNP National Executive Committee away from the Sturgeonites was taken as a sign that those who want to wrest control away from Murrell can do it gradually and with lesser fallout for the party.

Edited by Evercross on Saturday 9th January 10:39

Evercross

3,097 posts

28 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Lim said:
Revealing interview with Andrew Leanord below. Useless. I know it couldn't be worse timing, but that betrays the urgency, that he needs to go ASAP

https://play.acast.com/s/timesredbox/whoisrichardl...
Did you deliberately get his name wrong?

Lim

2,274 posts

6 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Evercross said:
You are the one who said 'how long can she go on' but seem to think she will go on her terms.

I have already spelled out (countless times) what her terms are - to make it across the line in May and then hand over to a compliant successor who will be happy to keep her 'husband' in post as CEO of the SNP as it seems that all along this is what Salmond-gate (can we call it that) was all about.

As I said - MacKay was supposed to be that compliant successor, but his misdeeds caused the headache that was having to gerrymander Angus Robertson into selection for Holyrood candidacy by preventing Cherry from running.

However, every 'rumour' that has been postulated regarding the Salmond case and Sturgeon's involvement has turned out to be true. Some person or group of people know where the skeletons are and are drip-feeding the leaks, but doing so in such a way that they do not compromise legal process.

Now, bear in mind I have actually read the details of two legal documents that should not be discussed. If Sturgeon appears to be succeeding in attempting to set up the SNP so that she and her 'husband' can continue to control succession after she has left the post of leader, thus excluding those with ambition of leadership who are loyal to Salmond then they still have the 'nuclear option' which would be highly damaging to all concerned but would take the Murrells out the game at a stroke.

It is my opinion that the recent shift in control of the SNP National Executive Committee away from the Sturgeonites was taken as a sign that those who want rid of Sturgeon can do it gradually and with lesser fallout for the party.
EC Good post, and informative, thank you.

Angala, yes it's blown up now for sure, but I think PP was just observing that it has been fairly muted up to now on BBC etc, which mirrors my experience too.

Evercross said:
Did you deliberately get his name wrong?
No, not all your insults are untrue!

hutchst

3,657 posts

60 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Uhtred said:
Well yes. I could have said they have a ‘simple majority’ or to be more correct - plurality. My point really is that they will remain in power albeit as a ‘minority government’ and they do have the majority of Scottish seats in WM which again I think will continue for the foreseeable.

I just can’t see the U.K. supporting parties ever working together and putting up one candidate against SNP. What other solution is there?
There is definitely something simple, but it isn't an SNP majority. Anywhere above the odd local council. Which to be honest is about their level.

hutchst

3,657 posts

60 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Roderick Spode said:
I have multiple bags of popcorn and several decent single malts in preparation for the last two weeks of January, when the Ecktopus and Madame Krankie make their appearances under oath to the inquiry. I can hardly wait. No doubt the SNP stooges will give them the easiest of easy rides, but hopefully the opposition MSPs will find some teeth and ask the right questions. Revenge is a dish best served cold, and I think Salmond will go out there with all guns blazing. He wants his pound of flesh for wrongful accusations at the behest of his protégé, and Sturgeon knows it. I sincerely hope that we have entered the last month of Foghorn Dreghorn's disastrous premiership.
I would prefer to see her cling on until the election.

hutchst

3,657 posts

60 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Garvin said:
If, as seems likely, Sturgeon ‘bites the dust’ sometime later this year will we see a repeat performance from the nationalists of the recent events we have witnessed in the US?
No, more likely a rerun of Gordon trying to lock himself inside Downing Street and hide the keys.

Iwantafusca

858 posts

39 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Is there any actual truth to the “husband” rumours ?

Evercross

3,097 posts

28 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Iwantafusca said:
Is there any actual truth to the “husband” rumours ?
I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you (and myself).

ETA - OK, so here's what I can get away with saying because I am quoting other sources....

About the only source still accessible on search engines in the UK that mentions the first legal device.

Note the date. The SI referred to was taken out two months before the Tweet - co-incidentally around the time of the two now very contentious meetings referred to by Alex Salmond in his deposition, and Sturgeon and Murrell have both been questioned about in the inquiry.

At first I thought the purpose was to suppress reporting of allegations made against Salmond so as not to prejudice any future legal proceedings. I have since found out I was wrong in this presumption....

The second legal device is in relation to the suppression of details of the purchase of a dwelling in Bridge of Allan formerly owned by Judy Murray (which has led to the incorrect assumption that Judy Murray is in some way involved with the First Minister).

Someone here making a joke about the second one (for those who don't talk Street, Crib is slang for home).

If you want a laugh, Google "Judy Murray house" and take a look at the related searches.....

Edited by Evercross on Saturday 9th January 13:19

technodup

7,283 posts

94 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Evercross said:
Lim said:
I'm still not entirely up to speed on why this is a problem for NS outside the obvious downside of being forced to resign if found guilty.
rofl

As problems go for anyone it really doesn't get worse than that, bearing in mind that criminal charges for contempt of oath will probably follow shortly after.
Ach, it's only a six figure salary, pension contributions, reputational damage which would reduce her future earning potential, probable knock on for her 'husband' suffering the same fate, plus setting the independence movement back several years (possibly for an actual generation) to go along with the possible criminal charges. Apart from that it's fk all.

CallThatMusic

1,556 posts

52 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Uhtred said:
Evercross said:
Yup.

The SNP are currently a minority government, and have never commanded a majority of votes in any election.

Common misapprehension to think otherwise, but understandable given the misleading impression given by Nationalists themselves, and most media outlets.
Well yes. I could have said they have a ‘simple majority’ or to be more correct - plurality. My point really is that they will remain in power albeit as a ‘minority government’ and they do have the majority of Scottish seats in WM which again I think will continue for the foreseeable.

I just can’t see the U.K. supporting parties ever working together and putting up one candidate against SNP. What other solution is there?
Another Party which proposes more power or indeed independence for Scotland....
Support splits the SNP.

CallThatMusic

1,556 posts

52 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Evercross said:
Lim said:
Turning to the other side of the coin, if she is found innocent, or whatever the term is, what is your prediction for what will happen?
You are the one who said 'how long can she go on' but seem to think she will go on her terms.

I have already spelled out (countless times) what her terms are - to make it across the line in May and then hand over to a compliant successor who will be happy to keep her 'husband' in post as CEO of the SNP as it seems that all along this is what Salmond-gate (can we call it that) was all about.

As I said - MacKay was supposed to be that compliant successor, but his misdeeds caused the headache that was having to gerrymander Angus Robertson into selection for Holyrood candidacy by preventing Cherry from running.

However, every 'rumour' that has been postulated regarding the Salmond case and Sturgeon's involvement has turned out to be true. Some person or group of people know where the skeletons are and are drip-feeding the leaks, but doing so in such a way that they do not compromise legal process.

Now, bear in mind I have actually read the details of two legal documents that should not be discussed. If Sturgeon appears to be succeeding in attempting to set up the SNP so that she and her 'husband' can continue to control succession after she has left the post of leader, thus excluding those with ambition of leadership who are loyal to Salmond then they still have the 'nuclear option' which would be highly damaging to all concerned but would take the Murrells out the game at a stroke.

It is my opinion that the recent shift in control of the SNP National Executive Committee away from the Sturgeonites was taken as a sign that those who want to wrest control away from Murrell can do it gradually and with lesser fallout for the party.

Edited by Evercross on Saturday 9th January 10:39
Exactly this. Good post.
MacAskill strikes me as honest and of high integrity.
He knows what has been going on ( info passed to him multiple times ) and he won’t let it lie
either....

Pastor Of Muppets

982 posts

26 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
In case anyone has missed Effie's latest blog I will post the link here. It is an absolute stunner, one of the
best. very thought provoking.

amongst other things...

Effie said.....

"Scotland is not treated poorly compared to the parts of any other nation state. We have received a great deal of support from the British Government in the past year. Our workers have been furloughed our businesses supported. We have nothing to complain about. But support for independence has become vehement in a way that worries me. A second independence referendum campaign would make Scots more divided. I dread what would happen if Scottish nationalists overly optimistic because of opinion polls discovered that they had lost a second referendum by less than one percent. Some would not accept the result. Some would immediately campaign for a third referendum. Some might try to declare independence anyway. Such a poll would therefore be almost as dangerous as a border poll in Northern Ireland. If it were close neither side in Scotland would accept the result. Each would want another go or would try to overturn it in the courts. What this would do to Scotland does not bear thinking about. "

https://www.effiedeans.com/2021/01/secession-versu...

hidetheelephants

16,941 posts

157 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
Evercross said:
techguyone said:
OK so assuming nippy & Salmond self destruct, who is going to step in to fill the void?

Bunter Blackford?
The obvious choice is Joanna Cherry but that would end the Murrell dynasty.

Sturgeon wanted Derek MacKay to be her successor (more evidence of her poor judgement), and the machinations of the enquiry to stall the evidence of the Murrells' misdeeds, the changes to eligibility criteria for selection to bar Cherry from standing for Holyrood, and the existence of 'Progress Scotland' as an arms-length propaganda machine designed to raise Sturgeon's personal profile are all down to having to engineer a route for her (and Peter's) second choice of replacement, Angus Robertson, to get a shot at the title.
That's soft soap and I'm surprised at you; they want a coronation for Robertson, not a contest he might lose.

malks222

1,360 posts

103 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
how long can sturgeon delay/ slow down/ kick the van down the road on the salmond enquiry? what’s to stop her kicking it far enough down the road, contesting the election in may, then regardless of the outcome, say she’s stepping down as first minister. citing the toll steering scotland through the coronavirus has taken on her and how she needs to take a step back for her own mental health....... while shepherding in someone from her own side/ team.

does this take the heat off the enquiry, maybe she has done wrong maybe she hasn’t, but it doesn’t matter as she’s off to do some consultancy work for a few grand a day......

Evercross

3,097 posts

28 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
hidetheelephants said:
That's soft soap and I'm surprised at you; they want a coronation for Robertson, not a contest he might lose.
Of course that would be Sturgeon & Murrels' greatest wish (apart from maybe a 2-foot-long package from Lovehoney - take your pick which of the two would prefer that more).

Joking aside though - the whole thing serves to underline how the SNP is still very immature as a political party as it has never had to face a proper leadership battle in any of its time as a serious political force. Hindsight is showing that Salmond-gate was probably a botched attempt to kill in its infancy the possibility of the SNP having to face a (perfectly legitimate) contest that every other party has done countless times before and generally takes in its stride.

malks222 said:
How long can sturgeon delay/ slow down/ kick the van down the road on the salmond enquiry? what’s to stop her kicking it far enough down the road, contesting the election in may, then regardless of the outcome, say she’s stepping down as first minister. citing the toll steering scotland through the coronavirus has taken on her and how she needs to take a step back for her own mental health....... while shepherding in someone from her own side/ team.
This would seem to be her only course of action now, and achieving it will require some back-pedalling on her behalf to allow Salmond to redeem the reputation she has savaged so he (and his legal team) will back-off. Going by her spokesperson's statement yesterday it would appear initially at least she has no intention of doing so and is intent on doubling-down on her accusations towards him and making out that it is all a conspiracy against her.

Edited by Evercross on Saturday 9th January 15:32

hidetheelephants

16,941 posts

157 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
This load of bks ended up on my FB feed. The council in Glasgow is SNP, prior to that it was Labour for 40odd years. The government is SNP, has been for 13 years. Full of of ste, this poster is.


sherman

8,233 posts

179 months

Saturday 9th January
quotequote all
hidetheelephants said:
This load of bks ended up on my FB feed. The council in Glasgow is SNP, prior to that it was Labour for 40odd years. The government is SNP, has been for 13 years. Full of of ste, this poster is.

You should report it to tesco for copyright infringment or similar.