JLR bans boys in favour of girls and “non-binaries”
Discussion
It's not about forcing anyone to do anything is it? It's more about opening people's eyes to the possibilities and what's out there.
In some areas that actually goes beyond gender to things like class. I'm convinced that one of the things that holds back a lot of people from poorer areas is that their schools and parents limit their aspirations so severely. There are incredible, well paid careers out there in things like finance that a kid from Pontefract won't even know exist. If they don't know the opportunity is there how will they know to go after it?
That's all this is clumsily trying to fix.
In some areas that actually goes beyond gender to things like class. I'm convinced that one of the things that holds back a lot of people from poorer areas is that their schools and parents limit their aspirations so severely. There are incredible, well paid careers out there in things like finance that a kid from Pontefract won't even know exist. If they don't know the opportunity is there how will they know to go after it?
That's all this is clumsily trying to fix.
JagLover said:
pquinn said:
Is it a 'problem' though?
Are there queues of women wanting careers in the many many subjects that count as STEM but can't get in? Or do some people feel women are underrepresented in a certain subset of STEM fields and are trying to drag women into them while ignoring their presence in others?
Are non-STEM areas with gender imbalance trying similar schemes?
If people want to do certain jobs they will. Gender balance in many roles has shifted rapidly at various points - teaching and medicine for example - without anyone trying to force it.
It is a problem if you consider everyone to have exactly the same innate interests and aptitude regardless of sex. Then gender disparities in outcomes can be held up as an example of discrimination in society.Are there queues of women wanting careers in the many many subjects that count as STEM but can't get in? Or do some people feel women are underrepresented in a certain subset of STEM fields and are trying to drag women into them while ignoring their presence in others?
Are non-STEM areas with gender imbalance trying similar schemes?
If people want to do certain jobs they will. Gender balance in many roles has shifted rapidly at various points - teaching and medicine for example - without anyone trying to force it.
There are a number of "high status" roles that are becoming increasingly feminised. In the law for example the percentage of newly qualified solicitors who are female seems to be close to two thirds each year.
It might just be that women, on average, prefer to be lawyers, or phycologists, than engineers......
Edited by JagLover on Wednesday 3rd March 11:25
What we do know is that women were second-class citizens until relatively recently so we won't neutralise anything, naturally, very quickly.
JagLover said:
and if those 50% of the "best and brightest" prospects are already studying a subject in which they have more interest?, and are overrepresented in?
Are you going to stop them studying law, phycology, etc and force them to study a STEM subject?
No, but you might raise their awareness about the options, give them a taste and let them decide?Are you going to stop them studying law, phycology, etc and force them to study a STEM subject?
Biggy Stardust said:
gizlaroc said:
Sometimes we need to offer separate courses to boys and girls as I can see how a girl might not want to go on an engineering course with boys
You seem to be saying that girls might be sexist. If that's the case then they can take their prejudices & sod off.deckster said:
travisc said:
Ok I know it’s the mail. I know that JLR will have male engineers, positive discrimination, gender balancing, no potential engineer left uncatered for regardless of orientation gender etc etc but essentially to tell young boys (who are still at the no job but a bedroom poster stage of life) don’t bother to apply to us is pretty poor.
They don't need to make special overtures to the boys. Society has already conditioned them that they are suited to a job with cars. JLR has male engineers coming out of their ears.This is specifically and overtly targetted at bringing girls into engineering. And that's, unconditionally, a good thing.
The best person should always get the job.
At my work the bosses are lamenting the fact that more women fail the apitiute tests than men and as they're pass or fail there's no way to manipulate them to get more women through.
Edited by ChocolateFrog on Wednesday 3rd March 15:37
deckster said:
pquinn said:
Is it a 'problem' though?
Are there queues of women wanting careers in the many many subjects that count as STEM but can't get in? Or do some people feel women are underrepresented in a certain subset of STEM fields and are trying to drag women into them while ignoring their presence in others?
Are non-STEM areas with gender imbalance trying similar schemes?
If people want to do certain jobs they will. Gender balance in many roles has shifted rapidly at various points - teaching and medicine for example - without anyone trying to force it.
Yes, it's an issue. Partly for the girls who don't know that they want to be engineers, because they've never thought of it. But mainly for engineering (also science, technology, maths, whatever) which is missing out on 50% of its potentially best and brightest prospects.Are there queues of women wanting careers in the many many subjects that count as STEM but can't get in? Or do some people feel women are underrepresented in a certain subset of STEM fields and are trying to drag women into them while ignoring their presence in others?
Are non-STEM areas with gender imbalance trying similar schemes?
If people want to do certain jobs they will. Gender balance in many roles has shifted rapidly at various points - teaching and medicine for example - without anyone trying to force it.
Unless you believe that girls are inherently less good at technical subjects?
Yes, women think differently and that's exactly why many companies have realised that they are simply missing out by not having talented women on their teams, because they turn out better products.
ChocolateFrog said:
I'm with it until the point a less competent girl takes a more competent boys job, which if you think won't happen you're deluding yourself.
The best person should always get the job.
Agreed, this initiative is trying to get MORE women into the field, so that there's a larger pool of qualified/trained/talented people to choose from.The best person should always get the job.
I have no issue with them doing this so long as there is an equal number of places on alternative days for those who do not fit the description given.
These days every young person knows they can do anything they are qualified to do and if getting girls interested and comfortable with opportunities on offer then that is good.
If you do that by positive discrimination then that is not so good as there is evidence that the group falling behind is white male's educationally
These days every young person knows they can do anything they are qualified to do and if getting girls interested and comfortable with opportunities on offer then that is good.
If you do that by positive discrimination then that is not so good as there is evidence that the group falling behind is white male's educationally
C4ME said:
Women in STEM has been and continues to be a problem in this country. There is a long term government strategy to improve this. Schools are becoming much more active in this and what JLR is offering fits perfectly with this strategy. I applaud them for offering it. The additional interest generated in STEM amongst girls by activities such as this is well understood in education circles.
The objective of the JLR course is to create interest amongst girls to study STEM subjects and consider a career path in those subjects. That is it, nothing more. No job offered on a plate nor any other advantage over boys who might apply for a JLR job / scholarship / apprenticeship.
Women also seem to be massively under represented in the dangerous professions, where are the recruitment drives to get more women deep sea fishers, refuse workers, oil drillers, sewage workers, quarry workers, scaffolders etcThe objective of the JLR course is to create interest amongst girls to study STEM subjects and consider a career path in those subjects. That is it, nothing more. No job offered on a plate nor any other advantage over boys who might apply for a JLR job / scholarship / apprenticeship.
Gareth79 said:
Agreed, this initiative is trying to get MORE women into the field, so that there's a larger pool of qualified/trained/talented people to choose from.
What will happen to the fields that these women may have chosen instead ? I assume there will either be shortages or in a few years there will be a drive to reverse the decline of women in industry A ?otolith said:
mrporsche said:
What will happen to the fields that these women may have chosen instead ? I assume there will either be shortages or in a few years there will be a drive to reverse the decline of women in industry A ?
Maybe they will recruit more men?Recruit men as nursery school teachers or midwives outcry as they must be perves
(can you imagine a six foot, 18 stone bloke trying to sell a woman cosmetics, hello Avon calling)
Randy Winkman said:
When I was at my end of junior school holiday in Norfolk in 1976 (aged 10) we had an opportunity to visit a US air base. But they could only accomodate half of the children. So the rule was that the boys could go, but girls could go if individual boys opted out and offered up their place. I was the one boy out of about 60 who gave up his place to a girl who was really keen on aircraft. How times have changed? Sometimes things go a bit wrong but I think that they have mostly changed for the better in this sort of respect.
So you began virtue signalling at the age of 10 - well done you plonker Edited by Randy Winkman on Wednesday 3rd March 13:08
voyds9 said:
Recruit women in to STEM yeah lets all clap and cheer
Recruit men as nursery school teachers or midwives outcry as they must be perves
(can you imagine a six foot, 18 stone bloke trying to sell a woman cosmetics, hello Avon calling)
Or as doctors. You've met a male doctor before, no? Or nurses. Or as primary school teachers - very valuable, especially for teaching boys. Or lawyers. Or - actually - pretty much anything you need a degree for other than engineering or computer science . Recruit men as nursery school teachers or midwives outcry as they must be perves
(can you imagine a six foot, 18 stone bloke trying to sell a woman cosmetics, hello Avon calling)
Andeh1 said:
DeejRC said:
I agree entirely. The more and more engineery types of any gender learn and realise that JLR rates are w
k, then sooner or later they may actually wake up and realise they have to offer decent pay rates.
Until then JLR will continue employing cheap monkeys and making tat.
I spent years there, got a very resoectsbke industry average (though I left for more) ...but the £70k management car, all but fuel included, replaced every 6 months with a new one, for the price of a budget focus was a very nice perk.k, then sooner or later they may actually wake up and realise they have to offer decent pay rates.Until then JLR will continue employing cheap monkeys and making tat.
Below that you got generous overtime, shift pay & weekend multiplier.
You just didn't negotiate properly.
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