JLR bans boys in favour of girls and โ€œnon-binariesโ€

JLR bans boys in favour of girls and โ€œnon-binariesโ€

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Discussion

JagLover

33,612 posts

199 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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deckster said:
Yes, it's an issue. Partly for the girls who don't know that they want to be engineers, because they've never thought of it. But mainly for engineering (also science, technology, maths, whatever) which is missing out on 50% of its potentially best and brightest prospects.

Unless you believe that girls are inherently less good at technical subjects?
and if those 50% of the "best and brightest" prospects are already studying a subject in which they have more interest?, and are overrepresented in?

Are you going to stop them studying law, phycology, etc and force them to study a STEM subject?

PeteinSQ

1,408 posts

174 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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It's not about forcing anyone to do anything is it? It's more about opening people's eyes to the possibilities and what's out there.

In some areas that actually goes beyond gender to things like class. I'm convinced that one of the things that holds back a lot of people from poorer areas is that their schools and parents limit their aspirations so severely. There are incredible, well paid careers out there in things like finance that a kid from Pontefract won't even know exist. If they don't know the opportunity is there how will they know to go after it?

That's all this is clumsily trying to fix.

GroundEffect

12,124 posts

120 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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JagLover said:
pquinn said:
Is it a 'problem' though?

Are there queues of women wanting careers in the many many subjects that count as STEM but can't get in? Or do some people feel women are underrepresented in a certain subset of STEM fields and are trying to drag women into them while ignoring their presence in others?

Are non-STEM areas with gender imbalance trying similar schemes?

If people want to do certain jobs they will. Gender balance in many roles has shifted rapidly at various points - teaching and medicine for example - without anyone trying to force it.
It is a problem if you consider everyone to have exactly the same innate interests and aptitude regardless of sex. Then gender disparities in outcomes can be held up as an example of discrimination in society.

There are a number of "high status" roles that are becoming increasingly feminised. In the law for example the percentage of newly qualified solicitors who are female seems to be close to two thirds each year.

It might just be that women, on average, prefer to be lawyers, or phycologists, than engineers......

Edited by JagLover on Wednesday 3rd March 11:25
Might be but until we promote it properly we won't find out.

What we do know is that women were second-class citizens until relatively recently so we won't neutralise anything, naturally, very quickly.



Biggy Stardust

1,103 posts

8 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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gizlaroc said:
Sometimes we need to offer separate courses to boys and girls as I can see how a girl might not want to go on an engineering course with boys
You seem to be saying that girls might be sexist. If that's the case then they can take their prejudices & sod off.

otolith

43,997 posts

168 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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JagLover said:
and if those 50% of the "best and brightest" prospects are already studying a subject in which they have more interest?, and are overrepresented in?

Are you going to stop them studying law, phycology, etc and force them to study a STEM subject?
No, but you might raise their awareness about the options, give them a taste and let them decide?

JagLover

33,612 posts

199 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
Biggy Stardust said:
gizlaroc said:
Sometimes we need to offer separate courses to boys and girls as I can see how a girl might not want to go on an engineering course with boys
You seem to be saying that girls might be sexist. If that's the case then they can take their prejudices & sod off.
No, given the ages of those involved that is a fair point. If this were a course for graduates you might well attribute it to prejudice if they still wanted a single sex option, but at ages 10-13 many boys do not act very mature.


ChocolateFrog

11,890 posts

137 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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deckster said:
travisc said:
Ok I know it’s the mail. I know that JLR will have male engineers, positive discrimination, gender balancing, no potential engineer left uncatered for regardless of orientation gender etc etc but essentially to tell young boys (who are still at the no job but a bedroom poster stage of life) don’t bother to apply to us is pretty poor.
They don't need to make special overtures to the boys. Society has already conditioned them that they are suited to a job with cars. JLR has male engineers coming out of their ears.

This is specifically and overtly targetted at bringing girls into engineering. And that's, unconditionally, a good thing.
I'm with it until the point a less competent girl takes a more competent boys job, which if you think won't happen you're deluding yourself.

The best person should always get the job.

At my work the bosses are lamenting the fact that more women fail the apitiute tests than men and as they're pass or fail there's no way to manipulate them to get more women through.

Edited by ChocolateFrog on Wednesday 3rd March 15:37

Gareth79

5,534 posts

210 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
deckster said:
pquinn said:
Is it a 'problem' though?

Are there queues of women wanting careers in the many many subjects that count as STEM but can't get in? Or do some people feel women are underrepresented in a certain subset of STEM fields and are trying to drag women into them while ignoring their presence in others?

Are non-STEM areas with gender imbalance trying similar schemes?

If people want to do certain jobs they will. Gender balance in many roles has shifted rapidly at various points - teaching and medicine for example - without anyone trying to force it.
Yes, it's an issue. Partly for the girls who don't know that they want to be engineers, because they've never thought of it. But mainly for engineering (also science, technology, maths, whatever) which is missing out on 50% of its potentially best and brightest prospects.

Unless you believe that girls are inherently less good at technical subjects?
Exactly this. Plenty of girls grow up believing or simply BEING TOLD what sort of jobs women should do, and what men should do. Some of the replies in this thread even demonstrate that attitudes which lead to it.

Yes, women think differently and that's exactly why many companies have realised that they are simply missing out by not having talented women on their teams, because they turn out better products.

ChocolateFrog said:
I'm with it until the point a less competent girl takes a more competent boys job, which if you think won't happen you're deluding yourself.

The best person should always get the job.
Agreed, this initiative is trying to get MORE women into the field, so that there's a larger pool of qualified/trained/talented people to choose from.

Rivenink

2,177 posts

70 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Looks like the Mail can chalk up another success at triggering the inadequacies of middle aged men.

Its like they know which buttons to press.




spaximus

3,770 posts

217 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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I have no issue with them doing this so long as there is an equal number of places on alternative days for those who do not fit the description given.

These days every young person knows they can do anything they are qualified to do and if getting girls interested and comfortable with opportunities on offer then that is good.

If you do that by positive discrimination then that is not so good as there is evidence that the group falling behind is white male's educationally

voyds9

7,766 posts

247 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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C4ME said:
Women in STEM has been and continues to be a problem in this country. There is a long term government strategy to improve this. Schools are becoming much more active in this and what JLR is offering fits perfectly with this strategy. I applaud them for offering it. The additional interest generated in STEM amongst girls by activities such as this is well understood in education circles.

The objective of the JLR course is to create interest amongst girls to study STEM subjects and consider a career path in those subjects. That is it, nothing more. No job offered on a plate nor any other advantage over boys who might apply for a JLR job / scholarship / apprenticeship.
Women also seem to be massively under represented in the dangerous professions, where are the recruitment drives to get more women deep sea fishers, refuse workers, oil drillers, sewage workers, quarry workers, scaffolders etc

vonuber

15,145 posts

129 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Rivenink said:
Looks like the Mail can chalk up another success at triggering the inadequacies of middle aged men.

Its like they know which buttons to press.
It's actually quite funny tbh. It's like they ring a little bell and they come running, what a genius business model.

mrporsche

506 posts

6 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Gareth79 said:
Agreed, this initiative is trying to get MORE women into the field, so that there's a larger pool of qualified/trained/talented people to choose from.
What will happen to the fields that these women may have chosen instead ? I assume there will either be shortages or in a few years there will be a drive to reverse the decline of women in industry A ?


otolith

43,997 posts

168 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
mrporsche said:
What will happen to the fields that these women may have chosen instead ? I assume there will either be shortages or in a few years there will be a drive to reverse the decline of women in industry A ?
Maybe they will recruit more men?

voyds9

7,766 posts

247 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
otolith said:
mrporsche said:
What will happen to the fields that these women may have chosen instead ? I assume there will either be shortages or in a few years there will be a drive to reverse the decline of women in industry A ?
Maybe they will recruit more men?
Recruit women in to STEM yeah lets all clap and cheer

Recruit men as nursery school teachers or midwives outcry as they must be perves
(can you imagine a six foot, 18 stone bloke trying to sell a woman cosmetics, hello Avon calling)

anonymous-user

18 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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This won't end well.

chrispmartha

10,489 posts

93 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Borghetto

3,226 posts

147 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Randy Winkman said:
When I was at my end of junior school holiday in Norfolk in 1976 (aged 10) we had an opportunity to visit a US air base. But they could only accomodate half of the children. So the rule was that the boys could go, but girls could go if individual boys opted out and offered up their place. I was the one boy out of about 60 who gave up his place to a girl who was really keen on aircraft. How times have changed? Sometimes things go a bit wrong but I think that they have mostly changed for the better in this sort of respect.

Edited by Randy Winkman on Wednesday 3rd March 13:08
So you began virtue signalling at the age of 10 - well done you plonker rolleyes

otolith

43,997 posts

168 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
voyds9 said:
Recruit women in to STEM yeah lets all clap and cheer

Recruit men as nursery school teachers or midwives outcry as they must be perves
(can you imagine a six foot, 18 stone bloke trying to sell a woman cosmetics, hello Avon calling)
Or as doctors. You've met a male doctor before, no? Or nurses. Or as primary school teachers - very valuable, especially for teaching boys. Or lawyers. Or - actually - pretty much anything you need a degree for other than engineering or computer science .

Walter Sobchak

5,196 posts

188 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Pit Pony said:
The article says Blackpool. So TVR ? ....
I’d probably go with Nissan at that end of the country.

Don’t get me wrong I like some of JLRs products, but they still have quality issues, especially for the amount they charge for them.