CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 13)

CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 13)

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bodhi

6,749 posts

198 months

Thursday 29th July
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APontus said:
The vaccinated would possibly fare worse than the unvaccinated due to antigenic sin. They would apparently be reliant on the vaccine spike antibody, which would be ineffective against the more infectious virus and suppress the immune system's ability to create a new, more relevant one of its own. Unvaccinated people wouldn't have the vaccine spike antibody, so could develop one of their own that we relevant.
Dude, you have no idea how tempted I am to edit your post, and between every sentence insert the word "Parklife" because it would actually make more sense than that word salad you've just posted.

If you don't want to get the jab for good enough reasons that's absolutely fine in my book - be it medical, youth, previous infections, even wanting more data - and I don't think your participation in society should be restricted based upon that decision. I'd just ask you make that decision based on actual sound reasoning, not....well reading your post again I'd just say not that.

APontus

1,935 posts

4 months

Thursday 29th July
quotequote all
bodhi said:
Dude, you have no idea how tempted I am to edit your post, and between every sentence insert the word "Parklife" because it would actually make more sense than that word salad you've just posted.

If you don't want to get the jab for good enough reasons that's absolutely fine in my book - be it medical, youth, previous infections, even wanting more data - and I don't think your participation in society should be restricted based upon that decision. I'd just ask you make that decision based on actual sound reasoning, not....well reading your post again I'd just say not that.
Cool. No issues from me.

It would help if you could explain in layman's terms how I've misunderstood what I've read (or if the author should be ignored).

Starting point here; https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/faq

77th Brigade

452 posts

6 months

Thursday 29th July
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Help me out here. I know in Malarial areas of the globe that cheap, fake anti-malarial drugs that don't actually kill malaria allow the disease to learn to survive and beat normal dose anti-malarials. Is Boscche talking of a similar process for the vaccine against Covid-19 resulting in more dangerous, vaccine evading variants?

MikeT66

2,469 posts

93 months

Thursday 29th July
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An American view, but Ted Cruz is bang on here...



It's interesting how the same battles regarding civil liberty, freedom of choice and freedom of speech are being fought across much of the West.

tangerine_sedge

2,776 posts

187 months

Thursday 29th July
quotequote all
APontus said:
bodhi said:
Dude, you have no idea how tempted I am to edit your post, and between every sentence insert the word "Parklife" because it would actually make more sense than that word salad you've just posted.

If you don't want to get the jab for good enough reasons that's absolutely fine in my book - be it medical, youth, previous infections, even wanting more data - and I don't think your participation in society should be restricted based upon that decision. I'd just ask you make that decision based on actual sound reasoning, not....well reading your post again I'd just say not that.
Cool. No issues from me.

It would help if you could explain in layman's terms how I've misunderstood what I've read (or if the author should be ignored).

Starting point here; https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/faq
ffs - yet again we have a "new" high message count poster using GVB to push anti-vax nonsense. There's loads of info out there pointing out why he's wrong, and also why he's attractive to anti-vaxxers.

APontus

1,935 posts

4 months

Thursday 29th July
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tangerine_sedge said:
ffs - yet again we have a "new" high message count poster using GVB to push anti-vax nonsense. There's loads of info out there pointing out why he's wrong, and also why he's attractive to anti-vaxxers.
I'm no anti-vaxxer. Quite the opposite.

superlightr

11,403 posts

232 months

Thursday 29th July
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MikeT66 said:
An American view, but Ted Cruz is bang on here...



It's interesting how the same battles regarding civil liberty, freedom of choice and freedom of speech are being fought across much of the West.
sadly i dont see it being fought in the UK - its not being published that it is anyway.

PurplePangolin

261 posts

2 months

Thursday 29th July
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tangerine_sedge said:
APontus said:
bodhi said:
Dude, you have no idea how tempted I am to edit your post, and between every sentence insert the word "Parklife" because it would actually make more sense than that word salad you've just posted.

If you don't want to get the jab for good enough reasons that's absolutely fine in my book - be it medical, youth, previous infections, even wanting more data - and I don't think your participation in society should be restricted based upon that decision. I'd just ask you make that decision based on actual sound reasoning, not....well reading your post again I'd just say not that.
Cool. No issues from me.

It would help if you could explain in layman's terms how I've misunderstood what I've read (or if the author should be ignored).

Starting point here; https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/faq
ffs - yet again we have a "new" high message count poster using GVB to push anti-vax nonsense. There's loads of info out there pointing out why he's wrong, and also why he's attractive to anti-vaxxers.
Nonsense that is easily disproved by the science

APontus

1,935 posts

4 months

Thursday 29th July
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PurplePangolin said:
Nonsense that is easily disproved by the science
I did a bit of reading of the 'debunking' articles this morning. The easily googled ones appear to coincide with an open letter Bossche wrote in March. The debunking seems to be mainly discrediting his assumptions that the vaccines allow infection/transmission and immunity will wane in a relatively short time frame.

The emerging evidence appears to support both these things as now happening, however.

jameswills

927 posts

12 months

Thursday 29th July
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Dr Malone speaks again regarding the Fauci and CDC announcements

https://rumble.com/vkfz1v-the-vaccine-causes-the-v...

He has concerns that we are starting to see the signs of ADE which is what he was afraid might happen with this vaccine and the way it was being rolled out en masse. If anyone has not seen the 90 minute video with him in June, also worth a watch.

Don’t shoot the messenger, I’m keeping an open mind on everything, nothing is off the table, nothing smells right at all to me. I think things like this should be considered and debated at least.

APontus

1,935 posts

4 months

Thursday 29th July
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jameswills said:
Don’t shoot the messenger, I’m keeping an open mind on everything, nothing is off the table, nothing smells right at all to me. I think things like this should be considered and debated at least.
I'm in the same position.

It's a great shame that reasonable, qualified people with contra opinions (irrespective of whether they're right or wrong) have been forced to rely on fringe and nutter routes to express their views and shunned by MSM. It then taints their points by association.

jameswills

927 posts

12 months

Thursday 29th July
quotequote all
APontus said:
I'm in the same position.

It's a great shame that reasonable, qualified people with contra opinions (irrespective of whether they're right or wrong) have been forced to rely on fringe and nutter routes to express their views and shunned by MSM. It then taints their points by association.
It’s incredible that things like this are not debated in the open, on a mainstream media channel and in front of parliament. The sad thing is, people like Dr Malone champion the vaccine and technology itself, but simply say that rolling it out to entire populations is just simply an extremely dangerous thing to do. That’s a worthwhile argument to listen to, and yet if that was on YouTube, it would be down in minutes. No one gets to see this, even on here that will be smacked around as “anti vaxx” within the hour.

All that just makes me even more suspicious of everything. Really weird times, not known anything like it.

J210

3,211 posts

152 months

Thursday 29th July
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I take it this is nothing to worry about. A contract given for Covid certification to a company who do Heath passes and passports

https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/notice/...

Boringvolvodriver

4,236 posts

12 months

Thursday 29th July
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jameswills said:
It’s incredible that things like this are not debated in the open, on a mainstream media channel and in front of parliament. The sad thing is, people like Dr Malone champion the vaccine and technology itself, but simply say that rolling it out to entire populations is just simply an extremely dangerous thing to do. That’s a worthwhile argument to listen to, and yet if that was on YouTube, it would be down in minutes. No one gets to see this, even on here that will be smacked around as “anti vaxx” within the hour.

All that just makes me even more suspicious of everything. Really weird times, not known anything like it.
And I feel the same - I have always looked at both sides of an argument/proposal and then come to an informed decision based on facts. If someone was unwilling or unable to provide me with the information that I asked for, then it didn’t help their case!

Increasingly difficult to do this right now with the virus and vaccines which only leads me to think that something is not right

APontus

1,935 posts

4 months

Thursday 29th July
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J210 said:
I take it this is nothing to worry about. A contract given for Covid certification to a company who do Heath passes and passports

https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/notice/...
"Contract suitable for SME: No"

"Supplier is SME: Yes"

Gotta love our awesome procurement.

Boringvolvodriver

4,236 posts

12 months

Thursday 29th July
quotequote all
J210 said:
I take it this is nothing to worry about. A contract given for Covid certification to a company who do Heath passes and passports

https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/notice/...
This is the company

https://www.entrust.com/

Looks like they provide the security aspect - hopefully they are providing the consultancy to the NHS and not running the system - don’t want a commercial company with its HQ in America potentially having access to health records do we………….

Winterway

1,525 posts

154 months

Thursday 29th July
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Boringvolvodriver said:
This is the company

https://www.entrust.com/

Looks like they provide the security aspect - hopefully they are providing the consultancy to the NHS and not running the system - don’t want a commercial company with its HQ in America potentially having access to health records do we………….
The contract is for Public Key Infrastructure - in other words the system which facilitates encrypting/decrypting of the data - they will not have access to the encryption keys actually used so in turn the data itself.

Boringvolvodriver

4,236 posts

12 months

Thursday 29th July
quotequote all
Winterway said:
Boringvolvodriver said:
This is the company

https://www.entrust.com/

Looks like they provide the security aspect - hopefully they are providing the consultancy to the NHS and not running the system - don’t want a commercial company with its HQ in America potentially having access to health records do we………….
The contract is for Public Key Infrastructure - in other words the system which facilitates encrypting/decrypting of the data - they will not have access to the encryption keys actually used so in turn the data itself.
Thanks - I was hoping that would be the case.

Still it does rather look like the Government are pressing ahead with some sort of system

Carl_Manchester

8,271 posts

231 months

Thursday 29th July
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Andy888 said:
Carl_Manchester said:
Andy888 said:
grumbledoak said:
Andy888 said:
Still trying to quantify how much better off I would be if I was vaccinated.
...

So am I right in thinking that the vaccination means a reduction in the likelihood of hospitalisation by a mere 0.26% for the under 50s ?
That doesn't seem unlikely. The absolute risk reductions are quite small because the absolute risks are not that great, e.g.
"Pfizer/BioNTech - relative risk reduction, 95.1%; absolute risk reduction, 0.7%"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC79965...
Yeah, I remember that being discussed in here a while ago when the press were latching on the 95% headline and we were saying "whoa hold on", but that was based on trial data. Be nice if we could prove it right with actual data.
If you go back in the thread, it was, via Israeli heath service data. The vaccines are approx 93% effective or, as was posted approx 9x less likely to be seriously ill or, die.

Unfortunately this is what happens when the anti-science crew keep steam-rolling the thread with nonsense, the good stuff gets lost.
Except Israel are now saying Pfizer is supposedly only 39% effective! Ah sure!
39% effective at preventing *infection* from Delta not preventing serious illness or death i.e. going to a hospital.

Darwinism is in action here, by all means, if you are a bloke on PH, powerfully built and want to win the NHS hospital pass lottery, don't take the vaccine, there will be a suitably grumpy po-faced NHS doctor in blue overalls waiting to judge your I.Q levels after being admitted and you can have a right moan about your NHS experiences right here on the PH forum as people like myself laugh at you for being dumb as rocks.

Seriously though, I won't judge anyone if you don't take the vaccine, its freedom of choice but you should take it and I recommend you do take it.





Tuna

19,156 posts

253 months

Thursday 29th July
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Boringvolvodriver said:
And I feel the same - I have always looked at both sides of an argument/proposal and then come to an informed decision based on facts.
Forgive me, but how do you know what the "facts" are - this thread and many other discussions online are filled with people using long words they read on the internet to try and divine signs from partial data of unknown origin that support whatever theory they've decided is right.

There is an industry around false information. Not just for the virus, but just about any piece of health or financial information. Anything that can be used to influence your behaviour can and will be "weaponised" by people who want to sell you stuff or take your money, or just irritate the government.

For the virus there is no "both sides". There is the incomplete (but growing) scientific evidence, and there is mumbo-jumbo and guesswork.

There's an interesting piece of work doing the rounds looking at where people get their information from, and it turns out just a handful of people produce over half of the virus (mis)information online. ( https://252f2edd-1c8b-49f5-9bb2-cb57bb47e4ba.files... ) - the people involved have, between their many fake accounts, nearly sixty million followers and generate hundreds of thousands of articles, papers and posts giving "facts" about the virus. This stuff is endemic, and constantly evolving.

There are huge motivations for these groups to push alternative theories about the virus, vaccines, "cures" and the government's response. Not only are they massively incentivised to lie about these things, they are in an "arms race" to make those lies as believable and subtle as possible. Sure, the easy stuff about 5G nanobots from Bill Gates is good for a laugh, but then little bits of misinformation about clotting rates, or signs of vaccine resistance are put out there and how do you know if they're "true"?

Sadly it's not as if you can look at the qualifications of the people involved - particularly in America, the health industry is worth billions, and Doctors are more than happy to use their qualifications to endorse messages that ultimately line their pockets.

This isn't meant as an attack on you specifically, but we're now on volume 13 of a thread filled with people quoting "reliable sources" and divining the tea-leaves of home-made graphs and second-hand statistics. For most of us it is very hard to step away from an understanding that we're emotionally invested in, so having decided that a theory is valid, we resist attacks and talk about "having an open mind" or "following the science", or "looking at both sides". The harsh reality is that we don't want to look foolish or be challenged, so we look for sources to validate our theories, regardless of how sound they are.

Of course, the same people who spread misinformation will use the same logic against "the government" - how do they know what's true, how do we know they're not lying/incompetent? The thing is, we're watching the global response of hundreds of governments, thousands of hospitals and research organisations, and there is a vast amount of common ground that we can be pretty sure of. Sure, be wary of "early signs" or groups that report success from unusual choices - a lot of the experimentation at the edges will take months, if not years to be validated, and should be regarded with scepticism, but that core common ground is really pretty hard to question these days.




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