Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[StevieBee]

Barchettaman said:

Not a contribution but more a question.

I live in Frankfurt.

My Mum comes over next week and is helping out at an English-as-a-foreign-language class in Bad Homburg. She’s done it before as a native speaker. The teacher (German) is a mutual friend.

Last time she was asked by the students how those in the UK who had voted pro-Brexit in 2016 felt about it now.

To those of you that did, can you quickly say how do you feel? Just so she has something to share with the students.

Thanks in advance!

I would ask the same question as well over in the Business section. Your Mum and her students will find it interesting the difference in responses between employers and employees.

[Gecko1978]

Barchettaman said:

Not a contribution but more a question.

I live in Frankfurt.

My Mum comes over next week and is helping out at an English-as-a-foreign-language class in Bad Homburg. She’s done it before as a native speaker. The teacher (German) is a mutual friend.

Last time she was asked by the students how those in the UK who had voted pro-Brexit in 2016 felt about it now.

To those of you that did, can you quickly say how do you feel? Just so she has something to share with the students.

Thanks in advance!

Brexit sucess hinged on the ability and willingness of our leaders to engage in trade and busiess with the rest of the world. A Singapore on Thames was one of the phrases. I voted to leave because I felt the EU was another body that did not care for people in Europe rather the EU project itself (that made many rich). That's still my position but what it's highlighted is MPs care about themselves more than people. Brexit has been a failure not because of Brexit but because of MPs

[Wills2]

Gecko1978 said:

Brexit sucess hinged on the ability and willingness of our leaders to engage in trade and busiess with the rest of the world. A Singapore on Thames was one of the phrases. I voted to leave because I felt the EU was another body that did not care for people in Europe rather the EU project itself (that made many rich). That's still my position but what it's highlighted is MPs care about themselves more than people. Brexit has been a failure not because of Brexit but because of MPs

Brexit was never going to increase the wellbeing of this country on any measure, you're right in that the shower that ended up in the cabinet with Boris had no interest in the country and its people, however anyone that cared for the country wouldn't have been implementing Brexit in the first place or allowing it to happen for that matter.

It's high time Brexiteers took responsibility for the part they have played in the country's demise.

[Mrr T]

Gecko1978 said:

Barchettaman said:

Not a contribution but more a question.

I live in Frankfurt.

My Mum comes over next week and is helping out at an English-as-a-foreign-language class in Bad Homburg. She’s done it before as a native speaker. The teacher (German) is a mutual friend.

Last time she was asked by the students how those in the UK who had voted pro-Brexit in 2016 felt about it now.

To those of you that did, can you quickly say how do you feel? Just so she has something to share with the students.

Thanks in advance!

Brexit sucess hinged on the ability and willingness of our leaders to engage in trade and busiess with the rest of the world. A Singapore on Thames was one of the phrases. I voted to leave because I felt the EU was another body that did not care for people in Europe rather the EU project itself (that made many rich). That's still my position but what it's highlighted is MPs care about themselves more than people. Brexit has been a failure not because of Brexit but because of MPs

When you voted did you know much about Singapore? Had you spent much time there?

[Ashfordian]

Barchettaman said:

Not a contribution but more a question.

I live in Frankfurt.

My Mum comes over next week and is helping out at an English-as-a-foreign-language class in Bad Homburg. She’s done it before as a native speaker. The teacher (German) is a mutual friend.

Last time she was asked by the students how those in the UK who had voted pro-Brexit in 2016 felt about it now.

To those of you that did, can you quickly say how do you feel? Just so she has something to share with the students.

Thanks in advance!

I voted Brexit

Overall, I currently feel satisfied but happy for the longer term. We are no longer going to be a part of the EU political project where eventually(a century?) all power will be in Brussels. The reality is that in the short term little overall has changed, apart from the EU getting the hump with the UK rejecting their political project. Most of the noise, and it is just noise, as there has been very little overall effect to the majority, is from the extremist side of those who lost the vote. I am however incredibly disappointed that certain people only want to respect a democratic outcome when it goes the way they voted. These people are scum!

[StevieBee]

Gecko1978 said:

I voted to leave because I felt the EU was another body that did not care for people in Europe rather the EU project itself (that made many rich).

Sorry, but have to pick up on this.

Just for context, a large part of my work is for the EU and EU funded institutions on various social reform projects so I see first hand what's going on in reality at street levels - and it is most certainly focused on people over the institution.

There are many European nations wishing to join the EU (Bosnia and Herzegovina, Albania, etc). To move them to a point where an application is valid, they are required to achieve EU acquis; a set of social minimum standards that are common across all member states. To do this, they receive financial and practical support in things like education, healthcare, governance, sanitation, gender equality and everything else that imposes the lives of people.

In Cyprus, a member state, you have the north of Cyprus which is not recognised as being independent sovereign by any nation other than Turkey. It is officially an illegally occupied region. So technically is not part of the EU. Yet the people of live there are considered Europeans by the EU and thus entitled to receive EU support on societal reforms and improvements (one of the projects on which I am currently working).

And all of this works. The lives of all Europeans have improved immeasurably as a result of EU interventions and support. Nations that had the propensity for instability - which would have effected other EU nations including the UK - are now stable. Opportunities for people have expanded exponentially, lives have been enriched.

The EU 'project' is 100% about European people. It can be nothing else. People have indeed grown rich from the implementation of these measures but that wealth is an indicator of success. And in any case, enrichment from government policy is not exactly a new or solely an EU thing (See Covid/PPE for more information).

Politically and operationally, it is not without its faults but to suggest that the EU does not care about people from Europe is utterly wrong. You'd need less than a week with me on any number of field missions to see this for yourself.

[andymadmak]

Barchettaman said:

Not a contribution but more a question.

I live in Frankfurt.

My Mum comes over next week and is helping out at an English-as-a-foreign-language class in Bad Homburg. She’s done it before as a native speaker. The teacher (German) is a mutual friend.

Last time she was asked by the students how those in the UK who had voted pro-Brexit in 2016 felt about it now.

To those of you that did, can you quickly say how do you feel? Just so she has something to share with the students.

Thanks in advance!

I have mixed feelings about Brexit now, not because I regret it, (I don't and would vote the same way tomorrow) but because so much division, bitterness and bad blood has been created. Some people just refuse to move on, or to let go of their anger even 8 years after the vote. I genuinely find that very hard to understand. It was a vote. a decision was reached. Had it gone the other way I can honestly say that I personally would not still be banging on about it 8 years later, even if our contributions had had to go up, or we'd not got vaccines or we'd been forced to do other things that were not 100% in the UKs interest.

I'm also disappointed that the Government has not been more proactive in looking to optimise the UK position outside of the EU. Leaving the EU was always going to carry some costs, but it does seem as though our Government has been inept and witless in how it has gone about things.
I've read some articles that suggest that some of the issues can be traced back to elements in the Civil Service still fighting some sort of Remain rearguard action, but whatever the truth of the matter, we, as a nation need to do better and grab what is out there for us. Leadership, both at the national and corporate levels needs to be better.

I see the surveys about people expressing regret, but I've also seen surveys that despite that regret a majority would not vote to rejoin because the terms we would get would be poor. Focussing on the regret seems to be a peculiarly British thing to do. Why can't we focus on getting on with things and making them work?

In one small sense I see the Brexit thing as being a bit like the Miners strike. On the one hand you still have people blaming Thatcher for everything wrong about their own lives, but on the other nobody would seriously imagine sending tens of thousands of men down re-opened pits today, only to watch them die of respiratory diseases in their 60s and 70s. The country has largely moved on from coal mining, and it will one day move on from its full membership of the EU.

[2xChevrons]

andymadmak said:

I see the surveys about people expressing regret, but I've also seen surveys that despite that regret a majority would not vote to rejoin because the terms we would get would be poor.Focussing on the regret seems to be a peculiarly British thing to do. Why can't we focus on getting on with things and making them work?

In one small sense I see the Brexit thing as being a bit like the Miners strike. On the one hand you still have people blaming Thatcher for everything wrong about their own lives, but on the other nobody would seriously imagine sending tens of thousands of men down re-opened pits today, only to watch them die of respiratory diseases in their 60s and 70s. The country has largely moved on from coal mining, and it will one day move on from its full membership of the EU.

I think the comparison to the Miners' Strike is apt in the sense that the event - the strike in the 1980s, the referendum/exit in 2016/2020, were on both sides viewed through lenses far more complicated than the actual issue at hand. The Strike was about far more than the economic viability of the British coal industry, and Brexit is about far more than the UK's membership of a supranational economic organisation.

Both - on each side of the flashpoint - are about differing sections of society's differing views on how things should be, how they view themselves and want the UK to view itself/be viewed as a country, what the assumption underpinning the status quo should be and so on.

For the Miners' Strike it was about asserting the dominance of central democratic government and liberal economics and calling time on the post-war consensus and the labour politics that went with it, and more broadly bringing down the curtain on/actively demolishing (depending on your POV) the British working class culture that had developed with the industrial revolution 200 years before. For Brexit it was - is - a clash between views on the primacy of the nation-state vs. international sublimation, the UK remaining a global power or not, whether the UK is a culturally and politically European nation (or not, and if not whether it is distinctly/exceptionally 'British', Anglo-Saxon, internationalist etc.), nationalism/globalism, whether you've 'won' or 'lost' from the way things have been run in the past 20 years (or the last 40, right back to the Miners' Strike if you want to tie it all together etc.) and so on and on.

Like the Miners' Strike (but, I think I'm safe in saying, not as viscerally or as immediately) there are Remain voters for whom it wasn't just a vote about a political policy. They feel they lost something in the core of their identity/worldview and that the UK did so too. Just as a lot of the Leave voters walked with a renewed lightness of step because they felt they had achieves something new, or regained something lost.

Politics is fundamentally a passionate and emotional process and isn't - shouldn't - be a realm only of bland Vulcan logic and credit/debit decisions. People aren't like that. Expecting people to 'get over' things of this scale, when there is so much to get emotionally invested in, is unreasonable.

Re: The lost opportunities and the lack of 'gumption', I am put in mind of Dominic Cummings in the New Yorker feature surveying the Conservative legacy:

The New Yorker said:

Cummings, unsurprisingly, saw Brexit in revolutionary terms—as a chance to break with the country’s ruling orthodoxy. “The Vote Leave campaign was not of the Tory Party,” he said. “It was not a conservative—big ‘C’ or little ‘c’—effort. But none of them wanted to confront the reasons why we did it in the first place. . . . For us, this was an attempt to wrench us off the Cameron, establishment, Blairite line.” Cummings believes that Britain must rediscover its ability to build things—roads, railways, houses, research institutes, products that people want to buy—in order to prosper again. He argues that it is America’s ecosystem of universities, entrepreneurs, and government procurement departments that have helped maintain its economic and technological edge, not just lower taxes or a freer form of capitalism. “When you start talking about this to Tories, they go, Oh, Dominic, you sound like a terrible central planner,” Cummings said. “And you go, That’s America. This is not weird left-wing st.”

No one would accuse Cummings of having a popular platform. His jam is A.I. and Nietzsche. But, after the Brexit vote, he kept waiting for May’s government to act on what was, to him, its obvious implications: to restrict immigration, reform the state, and explore dramatic economic policies, in order to diverge from the E.U. and to boost the country’s productivity. “I kept thinking, month after month, God, like, it’s weird the way they are just thrashing around and not facing it,” Cummings said. In his view, the election of Trump, that November, provided a perfect excuse for Remainers not to take the Brexit vote seriously. “They just lumped it all in with, Oh, it’s a global tide of populism. It’s mad, irrational, evil. It’s partly funded by Putin,” he said. “They didn’t have to reëvaluate and go, Maybe the establishment in general has been, like, fking up for twenty-plus years. ”

Politically and philosophically I have little to nothing in common with Dominic Cummings, but I do agree with his basic view that 1) The UK needs a major top-to-bottom shakeup of how things a done and the assumptions on which it operates 2) Brexit was only ever going to be better than the Remain course if it served as an opportunity to do that. Cummings and I would certainly differ massively on what sort of changes to make, and it what direction, but I think we'd agree on the need for radicalism. I think we'd also agree that from 1997 to now the Conservative Party has completely ossified its own internal ideology to focus on one very specific, narrow sort of rentier liberal capitalism which means the party and those within it have blinkers that obscure any other way of doing things, even other broadly 'conservative' ways. You saw that on one direction with Truss, and you see the blinker on the other eye in that Cummings comment above about how even suggesting doing things like America - the global crucible of capitalism - is apparently off the table.

As for the bolded bit specifically, this may be getting into pop-sociology (gotta put that anthropology degree module to use somehow...) but I have seen it theorised that the British cultural tendency to moan about lost opportunities and mistakes of the past rather than seizing the present or looking to the future is an echo of our socially and economically stratified society that we have never properly ended or thrown of, we've merely softened the boundaries a little. So the 'average British person' wasn't - isn't - in full control of their own or their national destiny. That was a job for the ruling class - they ruled the country. The owning class owned and managed the land and the factories and the infrastructure. The middle class dictated the cultural norms - what was 'good taste' and 'fashionable'. Throughout national history most British people had little to no agency at any level, and that system is still in place in a way that it isn't in countries that have created more egalitarian, mobile and democratic systems. It's like a nation-wide 'cultural cringe' that actually holding sway over our own destiny - as people, as a society or as a country - isn't really 'for the likes of us' so all we do is 'Monday Morning Referee' the decisions of our betters and moan about them, while studiously avoiding any political strains that might actually deliver the agency we apparently crave.

Which is also why we lose our collective minds when we get offered a referendum - a way to have a direct say that is none the less offered at the behest of our betters in a controlled, official, sanctioned, approved and acceptable way. So it becomes a 'safety valve' to vent all the grievances and moans and aspirations and desires, regardless of how relevant they are to the actual issue.

[redrabbit29]

It's amazing reading this thread just how divisive Brexit has been. We're now 8 years on from the vote and still people are bickering back-and-forth about whether it's a good idea or not.

You still get people referring in passing to people being "typical remoaner" or "brexiteer" even when Brexit isn't part of the discussion.

This country has never felt so divided, unsettled and just unpleasant. I say that without even mentioning which way I voted, it's just an observation.

[sugerbear]

Gecko1978 said:

Barchettaman said:

Not a contribution but more a question.

I live in Frankfurt.

My Mum comes over next week and is helping out at an English-as-a-foreign-language class in Bad Homburg. She’s done it before as a native speaker. The teacher (German) is a mutual friend.

Last time she was asked by the students how those in the UK who had voted pro-Brexit in 2016 felt about it now.

To those of you that did, can you quickly say how do you feel? Just so she has something to share with the students.

Thanks in advance!

Brexit sucess hinged on the ability and willingness of our leaders to engage in trade and busiess with the rest of the world. A Singapore on Thames was one of the phrases. I voted to leave because I felt the EU was another body that did not care for people in Europe rather the EU project itself (that made many rich). That's still my position but what it's highlighted is MPs care about themselves more than people. Brexit has been a failure not because of Brexit but because of MPs

Or.. I know this is hard to believe.. but maybe the EU wasn't constraning the UK from trading with the rest of the world.

[andymadmak]

2xChevrons said:

andymadmak said:

I see the surveys about people expressing regret, but I've also seen surveys that despite that regret a majority would not vote to rejoin because the terms we would get would be poor.Focussing on the regret seems to be a peculiarly British thing to do. Why can't we focus on getting on with things and making them work?

In one small sense I see the Brexit thing as being a bit like the Miners strike. On the one hand you still have people blaming Thatcher for everything wrong about their own lives, but on the other nobody would seriously imagine sending tens of thousands of men down re-opened pits today, only to watch them die of respiratory diseases in their 60s and 70s. The country has largely moved on from coal mining, and it will one day move on from its full membership of the EU.

I think the comparison to the Miners' Strike is apt in the sense that the event - the strike in the 1980s, the referendum/exit in 2016/2020, were on both sides viewed through lenses far more complicated than the actual issue at hand. The Strike was about far more than the economic viability of the British coal industry, and Brexit is about far more than the UK's membership of a supranational economic organisation.

Both - on each side of the flashpoint - are about differing sections of society's differing views on how things should be, how they view themselves and want the UK to view itself/be viewed as a country, what the assumption underpinning the status quo should be and so on.

For the Miners' Strike it was about asserting the dominance of central democratic government and liberal economics and calling time on the post-war consensus and the labour politics that went with it, and more broadly bringing down the curtain on/actively demolishing (depending on your POV) the British working class culture that had developed with the industrial revolution 200 years before. For Brexit it was - is - a clash between views on the primacy of the nation-state vs. international sublimation, the UK remaining a global power or not, whether the UK is a culturally and politically European nation (or not, and if not whether it is distinctly/exceptionally 'British', Anglo-Saxon, internationalist etc.), nationalism/globalism, whether you've 'won' or 'lost' from the way things have been run in the past 20 years (or the last 40, right back to the Miners' Strike if you want to tie it all together etc.) and so on and on.

Like the Miners' Strike (but, I think I'm safe in saying, not as viscerally or as immediately) there are Remain voters for whom it wasn't just a vote about a political policy. They feel they lost something in the core of their identity/worldview and that the UK did so too. Just as a lot of the Leave voters walked with a renewed lightness of step because they felt they had achieves something new, or regained something lost.

Politics is fundamentally a passionate and emotional process and isn't - shouldn't - be a realm only of bland Vulcan logic and credit/debit decisions. People aren't like that. Expecting people to 'get over' things of this scale, when there is so much to get emotionally invested in, is unreasonable.

Re: The lost opportunities and the lack of 'gumption', I am put in mind of Dominic Cummings in the New Yorker feature surveying the Conservative legacy:

The New Yorker said:

Cummings, unsurprisingly, saw Brexit in revolutionary terms—as a chance to break with the country’s ruling orthodoxy. “The Vote Leave campaign was not of the Tory Party,” he said. “It was not a conservative—big ‘C’ or little ‘c’—effort. But none of them wanted to confront the reasons why we did it in the first place. . . . For us, this was an attempt to wrench us off the Cameron, establishment, Blairite line.” Cummings believes that Britain must rediscover its ability to build things—roads, railways, houses, research institutes, products that people want to buy—in order to prosper again. He argues that it is America’s ecosystem of universities, entrepreneurs, and government procurement departments that have helped maintain its economic and technological edge, not just lower taxes or a freer form of capitalism. “When you start talking about this to Tories, they go, Oh, Dominic, you sound like a terrible central planner,” Cummings said. “And you go, That’s America. This is not weird left-wing st.”

No one would accuse Cummings of having a popular platform. His jam is A.I. and Nietzsche. But, after the Brexit vote, he kept waiting for May’s government to act on what was, to him, its obvious implications: to restrict immigration, reform the state, and explore dramatic economic policies, in order to diverge from the E.U. and to boost the country’s productivity. “I kept thinking, month after month, God, like, it’s weird the way they are just thrashing around and not facing it,” Cummings said. In his view, the election of Trump, that November, provided a perfect excuse for Remainers not to take the Brexit vote seriously. “They just lumped it all in with, Oh, it’s a global tide of populism. It’s mad, irrational, evil. It’s partly funded by Putin,” he said. “They didn’t have to reëvaluate and go, Maybe the establishment in general has been, like, fking up for twenty-plus years. ”

Politically and philosophically I have little to nothing in common with Dominic Cummings, but I do agree with his basic view that 1) The UK needs a major top-to-bottom shakeup of how things a done and the assumptions on which it operates 2) Brexit was only ever going to be better than the Remain course if it served as an opportunity to do that. Cummings and I would certainly differ massively on what sort of changes to make, and it what direction, but I think we'd agree on the need for radicalism. I think we'd also agree that from 1997 to now the Conservative Party has completely ossified its own internal ideology to focus on one very specific, narrow sort of rentier liberal capitalism which means the party and those within it have blinkers that obscure any other way of doing things, even other broadly 'conservative' ways. You saw that on one direction with Truss, and you see the blinker on the other eye in that Cummings comment above about how even suggesting doing things like America - the global crucible of capitalism - is apparently off the table.

As for the bolded bit specifically, this may be getting into pop-sociology (gotta put that anthropology degree module to use somehow...) but I have seen it theorised that the British cultural tendency to moan about lost opportunities and mistakes of the past rather than seizing the present or looking to the future is an echo of our socially and economically stratified society that we have never properly ended or thrown of, we've merely softened the boundaries a little. So the 'average British person' wasn't - isn't - in full control of their own or their national destiny. That was a job for the ruling class - they ruled the country. The owning class owned and managed the land and the factories and the infrastructure. The middle class dictated the cultural norms - what was 'good taste' and 'fashionable'. Throughout national history most British people had little to no agency at any level, and that system is still in place in a way that it isn't in countries that have created more egalitarian, mobile and democratic systems. It's like a nation-wide 'cultural cringe' that actually holding sway over our own destiny - as people, as a society or as a country - isn't really 'for the likes of us' so all we do is 'Monday Morning Referee' the decisions of our betters and moan about them, while studiously avoiding any political strains that might actually deliver the agency we apparently crave.

Which is also why we lose our collective minds when we get offered a referendum - a way to have a direct say that is none the less offered at the behest of our betters in a controlled, official, sanctioned, approved and acceptable way. So it becomes a 'safety valve' to vent all the grievances and moans and aspirations and desires, regardless of how relevant they are to the actual issue.

Thanks for this post. Great reading.

[Mortarboard]

In my personal opinion, many of those who say "brexit was a success" are actually well aware of how economically damaging brexit has been, but it's a price they are willing to pay to not have anything to do with the EU any more.
Ironically, if folks just accept its been st so far, then moves could be made to make it a success. However, claiming the emperors new suit is very fine indeed just stymies that. Instead we get tinfoil hatted excuses about "civil servants not believing in it" and other such nonsense.

M.

Edited by Mortarboard on Tuesday 16th April 14:01

[anonymous-user]

andymadmak said:

I have mixed feelings about Brexit now, not because I regret it, (I don't and would vote the same way tomorrow) but because so much division, bitterness and bad blood has been created. Some people just refuse to move on, or to let go of their anger even 8 years after the vote. I genuinely find that very hard to understand. It was a vote. a decision was reached. Had it gone the other way I can honestly say that I personally would not still be banging on about it 8 years later, even if our contributions had had to go up, or we'd not got vaccines or we'd been forced to do other things that were not 100% in the UKs interest.

I can only speak for myself, but thats because its had a measurable st impact on me for what I can see zero upside - we just look like clowns.

[Wombat3]

Mortarboard said:

In my personal opinion, many of those who say "brexit was a success" are actually well aware of how economically damaging brexit has been, but it's a price they are willing to pay to not have anything to do with the EU any more.
Ironically, if folks just accept its been st so far, then moves could be made to make it a success. However, claiming the emperors new suit is very fine indeed just stymies that. Instead we get tinfoil hatted excuses about "civil servants not believing in it" and other such nonsense.

M.

All well and good but unfortunately there is a significant cadre of people who would seem to delight in its failure just to prove a point. Being able to point to things that still need fixing seems to be a source of delight. Its verging on Masochistic. The reality is that it is, and always would be at this point, a work in progress.

It is however a work in progess significantly delayed by 3 years of internal parliamentary bickering and attempted derailment followed by 2 years of global pandemic.

Beside that, the boat won't go very far when you have a significant number of oarsmen either not pulling their weight "on principle" or indeed rowing in reverse.

What is also ignored is that the EU and its path also have not changed (and no reason why they should if they don't want to) but you simply do not get the scale of the anti-EU vote if all was anywhere near roses in the garden. Brexit is a product of many things, the EU itself played a not insignificant part in it.

Meanwhile what we ought to be doing is working together to make our country better and stronger and anyone who is not doing that & still carping on about how much better things would be "if only" is now entirely part of the problem IMO.

[Mortarboard]

Wombat3 said:

The reality is that it is, and always would be at this point, a work in progress.

Why do you think it's a work in progress?

Serious question. All actions taken to date have made it worse, not better.

UKCE, REACH II, etc.

It's been 8 years and the border/customs still hasn't been addressed, ffs. The requirements fir that were known near as dammit on day one.

M.

[Wombat3]

Mortarboard said:

Wombat3 said:

The reality is that it is, and always would be at this point, a work in progress.

Why do you think it's a work in progress?

Serious question. All actions taken to date have made it worse, not better.

UKCE, REACH II, etc.

It's been 8 years and the border/customs still hasn't been addressed, ffs. The requirements fir that were known near as dammit on day one.

M.

You are partially correct and I'm well aware that this is your favourite drum kit. The fact remains that it is just that...a work in progress. Some of the problems relating to Brexit are very, very difficult to solve, some nearly insoluble. Where we differ is that I don't think that means you stop the whole project just because one part of it is difficult.

You obviously think differently ...which is convenient because you never liked the idea in the first place ( which is your right).

[Mortarboard]

Then you've been making quite a few erroneous assumptions about my views.

Pre-2016, brexit was a stupid idea.
Post-2016, canceling brexit is a worse idea.

And failing to implement brexit properly is the worst of all. I've always said that there are huge opportunities with brexit. I've even listed how to use them (see first page of this thread if you're at all inclined).

At the moment, brexit isn't being implemented, bar token fig leaves to "look good". All the costs, none of the benefits.

M.

[Wombat3]

Mortarboard said:

Then you've been making quite a few erroneous assumptions about my views.

Pre-2016, brexit was a stupid idea.
Post-2016, canceling brexit is a worse idea.

And failing to implement brexit properly is the worst of all. I've always said that there are huge opportunities with brexit. I've even listed how to use them (see first page of this thread if you're at all inclined).

At the moment, brexit isn't being implemented, bar token fig leaves to "look good". All the costs, none of the benefits.

M.

Hmm and do think that it's those that were in favour of Brexit that are blocking progress?

Meanwhile I think the upcoming EU elections will be interesting.

[Mortarboard]

Wombat3 said:

Hmm and do think that it's those that were in favour of Brexit are blocking progress?

Meanwhile I think the upcoming EU elections will be interesting.

Plenty "in favour of brexit" in this thread think nothing needs to change in order to make brexit a success.

Those measure that could be taken that I mentioned, do you think it's "remoaners" that are holding those back?

Boris "got brexit done", did some mandarin loose the implementation plan down the back of a sofa or something?

M.

[Vanden Saab]

Mortarboard said:

Plenty "in favour of brexit" in this thread think nothing needs to change in order to make brexit a success.

Those measure that could be taken that I mentioned, do you think it's "remoaners" that are holding those back?

Boris "got brexit done", did some mandarin loose the implementation plan down the back of a sofa or something?

M.

The implementation plan that Cameron put into place before the referendum?