Increased lifetime allowance - would you work longer?

Increased lifetime allowance - would you work longer?

Poll: Increased lifetime allowance - would you work longer?

Total Members Polled: 179

Yes: 9%
No: 84%
Maybe, as explained below: 6%
Author
Discussion

bennno

11,502 posts

268 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
djc206 said:
bennno said:
Somethings gone very wrong with whole doctor situation, nobody seems to have a specific doctor any more, its a pot luck 8am scramble for an appointment, weekends forget it, home visits - don't be daft. Meanwhile sufficent earnings and copper bottomed pension to retire very early.
Is it very early? Long hours, stress and shift work. Seems like mid to late 50’s is about right to me.
Whats the difference between being a doctor and working in any other job paying similar money. long hours, stress, not all docs work shifts.

Countdown

39,686 posts

195 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
bennno said:
djc206 said:
bennno said:
Somethings gone very wrong with whole doctor situation, nobody seems to have a specific doctor any more, its a pot luck 8am scramble for an appointment, weekends forget it, home visits - don't be daft. Meanwhile sufficent earnings and copper bottomed pension to retire very early.
Is it very early? Long hours, stress and shift work. Seems like mid to late 50’s is about right to me.
Whats the difference between being a doctor and working in any other job paying similar money. long hours, stress, not all docs work shifts.
I'm an accountant. partners in mid-tier firms and FDs in large medium/companies will be on similar salaries but the stress (and responsibility) is usually a lot lower than that faced by a Consultant or Clinical Director.

bennno

11,502 posts

268 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
Countdown said:
I'm an accountant. partners in mid-tier firms and FDs in large medium/companies will be on similar salaries but the stress (and responsibility) is usually a lot lower than that faced by a Consultant or Clinical Director.
By comparison lots running small businesses will be under at least similar pressures, loads in pressurised enterprise sales roles carrying monthly targets will be burnt out by mid 50’s - majority of jobs paying 80k carry pressures.

ArmaghMan

2,398 posts

179 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
bennno said:
Whats the difference between being a doctor and working in any other job paying similar money. long hours, stress, not all docs work shifts.
Ever had to tell a young mum to enjoy her Christmas with her primary age kids?
Ever had to say the word " secondaries" to anyone?
Every decision could be life and death( not saying they all are but many can be)

Sometimes when I'm having a bh about work I just get a quiet smile and I know that she's dealt with something truly horrendous that day.



okgo

37,844 posts

197 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
Not likely to be doing much of that as a GP are you?

I agree though that whatever depictions of hospital staff I’ve seen on TV - I think “I couldn’t do that” - I think it’s extremely poorly paid across the board for what it is.

djc206

12,239 posts

124 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
bennno said:
Whats the difference between being a doctor and working in any other job paying similar money. long hours, stress, not all docs work shifts.
The value of their qualifications and the life or death decisions that a lot of them have to make I’d suggest.

bennno

11,502 posts

268 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
djc206 said:
bennno said:
Whats the difference between being a doctor and working in any other job paying similar money. long hours, stress, not all docs work shifts.
The value of their qualifications and the life or death decisions that a lot of them have to make I’d suggest.
A GP doesn’t make life or death decisions, they seem to prescribe antibiotics and simply refer you to a specialist, or hospital.

Point I was making is why a doctor would be burnt out by mid 50’s versus anybody working their nuts off to earn similar money.



mikebradford

2,483 posts

144 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
bennno said:
Countdown said:
I'm an accountant. partners in mid-tier firms and FDs in large medium/companies will be on similar salaries but the stress (and responsibility) is usually a lot lower than that faced by a Consultant or Clinical Director.
By comparison lots running small businesses will be under at least similar pressures, loads in pressurised enterprise sales roles carrying monthly targets will be burnt out by mid 50’s - majority of jobs paying 80k carry pressures.
Totally agree, as a small business owner you can't turn off.
You go to bed and jobs that need doing pop into your head.
Constantly thinking will staff turn up, and the associated thoughts of how you'll reorganise work to keep clients happy.
The positive is I regularly wake up and it's like my brains not switched off as I have solutions to problems in my head.
I think many don't realise the stress levels.
Like many GPs and doctors lots of small business owners simply deal with it.

djc206

12,239 posts

124 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
bennno said:
A GP doesn’t make life or death decisions, they seem to prescribe antibiotics and simply refer you to a specialist, or hospital.

Point I was making is why a doctor would be burnt out by mid 50’s versus anybody working their nuts off to earn similar money.
A GP is the first port of call for almost all of us and plays a valuable role in spotting serious issues before they turn life changing or life ending. A decision to refer or not refer can very much be a life or death decision.

Those people are possibly burnt out as well but for most the consequences will be purely personal rather than having ramifications for the safety of others. If high earners think they might need to retire younger than average because of a high stress job they’d be wise to make adequate provision to facilitate that. They’re not being discriminated against.

As an example of sensible pension rules elsewhere air traffic controllers is the US are mandatory retired at 56. Average age of retirement in the U.K. in the same role is currently around 56 although there is no mandate.



bennno

11,502 posts

268 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
djc206 said:
bennno said:
A GP doesn’t make life or death decisions, they seem to prescribe antibiotics and simply refer you to a specialist, or hospital.

Point I was making is why a doctor would be burnt out by mid 50’s versus anybody working their nuts off to earn similar money.
A GP is the first port of call for almost all of us and plays a valuable role in spotting serious issues before they turn life changing or life ending. A decision to refer or not refer can very much be a life or death decision.

Those people are possibly burnt out as well but for most the consequences will be purely personal rather than having ramifications for the safety of others. If high earners think they might need to retire younger than average because of a high stress job they’d be wise to make adequate provision to facilitate that. They’re not being discriminated against.

As an example of sensible pension rules elsewhere air traffic controllers is the US are mandatory retired at 56. Average age of retirement in the U.K. in the same role is currently around 56 although there is no mandate.
I get all of that.

By comparison my lads a qualified mechanic and mot tester, earns very little, if he messes up he’s potentially personally liable, gets naff all pension, main dealers drive productivity targets hard, tough manual work in cold conditions with many mechanics struggling past 50.

Agreed any high earners who are facing in to stress should make provisions for early retirement. Makes zero difference if it’s from stress, hodding bricks up scaffold, or workings as a teacher or gp.

oilit

2,618 posts

177 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
bennno said:
djc206 said:
bennno said:
Whats the difference between being a doctor and working in any other job paying similar money. long hours, stress, not all docs work shifts.
The value of their qualifications and the life or death decisions that a lot of them have to make I’d suggest.
A GP doesn’t make life or death decisions, they seem to prescribe antibiotics and simply refer you to a specialist, or hospital.

Point I was making is why a doctor would be burnt out by mid 50’s versus anybody working their nuts off to earn similar money.
Stop thinking about only GP when you hear Doctor, and think also about those who are working in all the hospitals,
On call, treated like s*** by drug addicts, alcoholics, and then screamed at by families who dont understand why they can’t save a 40 year old who is clinically obese and won’t survive the operation.

Sales people have no stress in comparison, they bring it on themselves because they want the commission. Most medical staff don't do it for the money, they are normally a type of person who wants to help. BUT, the pension rules meant once they reached a certain number of years, if they kept working their pension started to decrease. I know a number who retired because if this silly situation. This, coupled with less foreign nationals wanting to work in the uk as qualified doctors and the salaries of junior doctors being less than many jobs with less qualification needs has resulted in a huge shortage of qualified drs in the nhs.

Thus i know 1st hand that this is the right answer to help get the nhs back on its feet by encoraging experienced drs to stay a bit longer ( they also need to strip out all the middle management and independent consultants - but that is a different discussion)!!

Olivera

7,065 posts

238 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
Cupid-stunt said:
This reads as though there is no max ....

IFS reckon it is a scam = increaseing /scrapping LTA means saving on inheritance tax.
I have to agree with the Guardian here, I just don't see how these changes can be justified given:

a) the cost, which could have been used to fund a significant increase in new doctor recruitment and training

b) the inequality of it, a very generous tax relief giveaway to the wealthy is simply inequitable given we have the personal allowance and basic rate amounts frozen until 27/28

okgo

37,844 posts

197 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
oilit said:
Stop thinking about only GP when you hear Doctor, and think also about those who are working in all the hospitals,
On call, treated like s*** by drug addicts, alcoholics, and then screamed at by families who dont understand why they can’t save a 40 year old who is clinically obese and won’t survive the operation.

Sales people have no stress in comparison, they bring it on themselves because they want the commission. Most medical staff don't do it for the money, they are normally a type of person who wants to help. BUT, the pension rules meant once they reached a certain number of years, if they kept working their pension started to decrease. I know a number who retired because if this silly situation. This, coupled with less foreign nationals wanting to work in the uk as qualified doctors and the salaries of junior doctors being less than many jobs with less qualification needs has resulted in a huge shortage of qualified drs in the nhs.

Thus i know 1st hand that this is the right answer to help get the nhs back on its feet by encoraging experienced drs to stay a bit longer ( they also need to strip out all the middle management and independent consultants - but that is a different discussion)!!
On the plus side you basically will never get fired (common for sales guys) and have a pension scheme better than someone earning well over double the salary. I ‘still’ think it’s a job I’d never touch but it does have some stuff going for it.

Kermit power

Original Poster:

28,634 posts

212 months

Sunday 19th March 2023
quotequote all
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
Whilst I understand the sentiment among most people of "woah, (just over) a million pounds in a pension = rich bd", and accepting that a lot of people will not get anywhere near that, it is not as much as the headline number makes you think.
Assuming that someone with a maxed-out pension pot buys an annuity with all of it, depending on the terms of the annuity (spouse/dependents pensions etc), then that would be between £30K and £40K a year of income, which of course would be taxed.

A comfortable amount to live on in retirement, absolutely - but hardly luxurious and lavish (I appreciate people's view on what is lavish is subjective).

I am probably going to hit the current threshold by the time I hit retirement age. From my perspective, it is about time high earners were not hammered at every opportunity, and this is a small step to giving something back to those that contribute the most.

Changing the topic slightly - there is clearly a lack of understanding amongst the general population as to how pensions work (including the state pension) - I really think that this is something that should be taught properly in schools, along with mortgages and taxation in general (far more useful that learning trigonometry). I have taken on younger staff in their 20's (educated, professional roles) who knew very little about, and had little interest in pensions, didn't understand mortgages etc (and were horrified by the concept of stamp duty).
Personally, I think EVERYONE should be horrified by the concept of Stamp Duty!

I'm in my fifties, and only in my second property.

Back when we bought our first, my expectation was that we'd do as my parents' generation and others before them had done and move to gradually larger houses over time, and a few years down the line, that's exactly what we did.

When the time came to move again, though, between all the various costs of moving, but above all stamp duty, we discovered that we'd be shelling out the best part of £40k before we'd spent so much as a penny on actually increasing the size of our house!

So what did we do? The same as almost every other homeowner in our street. We extended and converted the loft instead.

We got our extra space, but there is now a yawning chasm from the rung below on the ladder, so it's even harder than before for younger people to move on up.

Stamp Duty is evil.

TriumphStag3.0V8

3,791 posts

80 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
Whilst I understand the sentiment among most people of "woah, (just over) a million pounds in a pension = rich bd", and accepting that a lot of people will not get anywhere near that, it is not as much as the headline number makes you think.
Assuming that someone with a maxed-out pension pot buys an annuity with all of it, depending on the terms of the annuity (spouse/dependents pensions etc), then that would be between £30K and £40K a year of income, which of course would be taxed.

A comfortable amount to live on in retirement, absolutely - but hardly luxurious and lavish (I appreciate people's view on what is lavish is subjective).

I am probably going to hit the current threshold by the time I hit retirement age. From my perspective, it is about time high earners were not hammered at every opportunity, and this is a small step to giving something back to those that contribute the most.

Changing the topic slightly - there is clearly a lack of understanding amongst the general population as to how pensions work (including the state pension) - I really think that this is something that should be taught properly in schools, along with mortgages and taxation in general (far more useful that learning trigonometry). I have taken on younger staff in their 20's (educated, professional roles) who knew very little about, and had little interest in pensions, didn't understand mortgages etc (and were horrified by the concept of stamp duty).
Personally, I think EVERYONE should be horrified by the concept of Stamp Duty!

I'm in my fifties, and only in my second property.

Back when we bought our first, my expectation was that we'd do as my parents' generation and others before them had done and move to gradually larger houses over time, and a few years down the line, that's exactly what we did.

When the time came to move again, though, between all the various costs of moving, but above all stamp duty, we discovered that we'd be shelling out the best part of £40k before we'd spent so much as a penny on actually increasing the size of our house!

So what did we do? The same as almost every other homeowner in our street. We extended and converted the loft instead.

We got our extra space, but there is now a yawning chasm from the rung below on the ladder, so it's even harder than before for younger people to move on up.

Stamp Duty is evil.
Oh, I agree completely. We had the same challenge, but there was absolutely no scope to extend our last house, so we had no choice but to spend the money (actually pretty close to £40k as well) for the priveledge of spending more on a bigger house.

Flooble

5,565 posts

99 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
oilit said:
Stop thinking about only GP when you hear Doctor, and think also about those who are working in all the hospitals,
On call, treated like s*** by drug addicts, alcoholics, and then screamed at by families who dont understand why they can’t save a 40 year old who is clinically obese and won’t survive the operation.

Sales people have no stress in comparison, they bring it on themselves because they want the commission. Most medical staff don't do it for the money, they are normally a type of person who wants to help. BUT, the pension rules meant once they reached a certain number of years, if they kept working their pension started to decrease. I know a number who retired because if this silly situation. This, coupled with less foreign nationals wanting to work in the uk as qualified doctors and the salaries of junior doctors being less than many jobs with less qualification needs has resulted in a huge shortage of qualified drs in the nhs.

Thus i know 1st hand that this is the right answer to help get the nhs back on its feet by encoraging experienced drs to stay a bit longer ( they also need to strip out all the middle management and independent consultants - but that is a different discussion)!!
The thing for me though is that most people in a highly paid job are likely to be highly intelligent. They are therefore likely to be more capable than many of deciding if they want to keep slogging at their profession in order to have a slightly nicer house/holiday/car or if they value their life more. So I think measures such as this can only be a sticking-plaster at best. These people will also have started work in the 80s or 90s.

Someone started a thread recently about working time, which made me think about when I started work (90s). Hours were 9-5 - some places even finished at 4 on a Friday - and everyone really did work those hours, with a proper hour for lunch (on-site restaurant etc.). Holidays were 25 or 30 days per year. Also when I started working in consultancy, we actually had contracts with the customers which specified our staff would have a 1000 start time on site and 1600 finish. Our employer built in "travel time". Plus when you were on site you were not expected to do anything but deal with that customer.

Today, outside some sectors, contracted hours are usually 0900-1730 and I know of at least two firms who contract you for 45 hours per week. Then there is always pressure to work extended hours; 0830 meetings are not unusual. Neither are 1730 meetings. Lunchtimes are gone - sandwich at your desk if you are lucky. Holidays also seem to be 25 days by exception - I've seen places offering 22 or less. In consultancy now when on site the expectation is you will work all the hours the customer demands and since you are contactable 24x7 you will also keep all the other plates spinning - if you haven't answered an email within the hour your phone is likely to ring.

Yes you can decline a lot of the above non-contractual degradations to terms and conditions (e.g. refuse the 0830 meetings), but I am talking more about the general change. Trying to work like it was 1999 would be like trying to stand against the tide.

I know some people are lucky enough to be in niches where they can choose their hours and manage their work/life balance etc. Although I do think there is a strong element where for every Project Manager glibly saying "oh yah, I get up and send a few emails, then walk the kids to school, have breakfast, check in on my projects, go to meet friends for lunch, have a cycle ride in the afternoon, then catch up in the evening" there are some other people working silly hours to keep the lights on because the happy-as-larry manager isn't actually doing their job properly.

I know I'll knock off work as soon as I am financially able to; I can't see why the Doctors mentioned above - who are under ten times more stress - would not do the same. Actually I wonder if it could even be worse than that and we'll end up with adverse selection pressure. Someone mentioned the pressure on GPs who have to decide whether or not to refer. Well, human nature being what it is, I can see there are going to be some GPs who don't really care in the slightest, are trying to do everything via FaceTime, and send everyone away with "two aspirin and come back in a fortnight"; while other GPs are dashing around still trying to do house calls and agonising over each decision, beating themselves up about missing a single diagnosis ten years ago. I rather suspect the ones who would be tempted to keep working will the former ...


julian64

14,317 posts

253 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
bennno said:
A GP doesn’t make life or death decisions, they seem to prescribe antibiotics and simply refer you to a specialist, or hospital.

Point I was making is why a doctor would be burnt out by mid 50’s versus anybody working their nuts off to earn similar money.
You are an idiot.

bennno

11,502 posts

268 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
julian64 said:
bennno said:
A GP doesn’t make life or death decisions, they seem to prescribe antibiotics and simply refer you to a specialist, or hospital.

Point I was making is why a doctor would be burnt out by mid 50’s versus anybody working their nuts off to earn similar money.
You are an idiot.
So try to explain more intelligently why a doctor would be more burnt out at 50 and more deserving of an extremely well funded retirement versus a self employed roofer, or builders labourer?

julian64

14,317 posts

253 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
bennno said:
julian64 said:
bennno said:
A GP doesn’t make life or death decisions, they seem to prescribe antibiotics and simply refer you to a specialist, or hospital.

Point I was making is why a doctor would be burnt out by mid 50’s versus anybody working their nuts off to earn similar money.
You are an idiot.
So try to explain more intelligently why a doctor would be more burnt out at 50 and more deserving of an extremely well funded retirement versus a self employed roofer, or builders labourer?
Sorry I don't normally call people idiots, but I was so angry at your statement.

There is a reason that your average GP has many times the training of a hospital doctor, and not just in one discipline but in all of them. They are also much more experienced than the majority of hospital doctors you would see in casualty.

A hospital doctor is surrounded by investigation equipment and a team of support staff. A GP has nothing but clinical ability to make a diagnosis. The responsibility of the diagnosis falls on the doctor making the decision. The amount of responsibility you give someone is proportional to how long they take to burn out.

Take for instance something simple like an ill child with a rash. The child goes to a GP, parents are worried. The GP sends about 1% of child rashes to a casualty, maybe less, the rest are treated in general practice and sent home. You couldn't possibly send 10% of rashes to the hospital because casualty would collapse. Blood tests take a week which would be too long if it were serious. If you get the rash wrong the child could die. How do you make the decision which one of the 100-200 rashes you see in a month to send. What part of your time off at home, or nights when you should be sleeping, do you spend thinking about whether you have made the right decisions remembering the patients you have seen that day.

Imagine you're a hospital doctor. Child brought into casualty with a rash. You have the same anxiety......You get bloods done in an hour, you can use a review ward to monitor them, you can call a consult from a specialist skin service, or child specialist doctor. Between you all, and with the results you can make the decision of whether its a serious rash or not, and there is a collective responsibility there.

The GP on the other hand waits to hear the next day whether the child got better, ended up in hospital or much worse, with a single responsibility for what happened.

Now magnify that up over people with suicidal thoughts, chest pains, abdo pain, back pains and all the rest that a GP does.

Perhaps sit down with any GP, get them pissed and then start asking them about patients who have died on their watch and listen to the stories. Being a GP is a typically 'out there on a limb' experience, and when you do get it wrong, no matter how many patients you were asked to see and how busy you were, there are no excuses which are adequate.



oddman

2,277 posts

251 months

Monday 20th March 2023
quotequote all
julian64 said:
Sorry I don't normally call people idiots, but I was so angry at your statement.

There is a reason that your average GP has many times the training of a hospital doctor, and not just in one discipline but in all of them. They are also much more experienced than the majority of hospital doctors you would see in casualty.

A hospital doctor is surrounded by investigation equipment and a team of support staff. A GP has nothing but clinical ability to make a diagnosis. The responsibility of the diagnosis falls on the doctor making the decision. The amount of responsibility you give someone is proportional to how long they take to burn out.

Take for instance something simple like an ill child with a rash. The child goes to a GP, parents are worried. The GP sends about 1% of child rashes to a casualty, maybe less, the rest are treated in general practice and sent home. You couldn't possibly send 10% of rashes to the hospital because casualty would collapse. Blood tests take a week which would be too long if it were serious. If you get the rash wrong the child could die. How do you make the decision which one of the 100-200 rashes you see in a month to send. What part of your time off at home, or nights when you should be sleeping, do you spend thinking about whether you have made the right decisions remembering the patients you have seen that day.

Imagine you're a hospital doctor. Child brought into casualty with a rash. You have the same anxiety......You get bloods done in an hour, you can use a review ward to monitor them, you can call a consult from a specialist skin service, or child specialist doctor. Between you all, and with the results you can make the decision of whether its a serious rash or not, and there is a collective responsibility there.

The GP on the other hand waits to hear the next day whether the child got better, ended up in hospital or much worse, with a single responsibility for what happened.

Now magnify that up over people with suicidal thoughts, chest pains, abdo pain, back pains and all the rest that a GP does.

Perhaps sit down with any GP, get them pissed and then start asking them about patients who have died on their watch and listen to the stories. Being a GP is a typically 'out there on a limb' experience, and when you do get it wrong, no matter how many patients you were asked to see and how busy you were, there are no excuses which are adequate.
I've been a GP and a hospital consultant.

For the reasons Julian has set out the vast majority of consultants concede that GP is the hardest job in medicine

Those that don't attract Julian's diagnosis - idiot.

On the matter of LTA - it wouldn't influence me to continue working - once you're over the limit, most DB schemes including the NHS are so generous, a 25% haircut compares well with alternative investments.

AA on the other hand is an absolute crippler (I've had years where income tax an AA charges have been more than my total earnings so reduced size pension to pay the tax). Many consultants will have made changes to their job plans and cut their cloth to deal with successive years of £40k limit which they likely won't change because the limit has gone up to £60k.

The other limiter is loss of personal allowance. The consultants salary scale makes it quite difficult to 'punch through' this until you're quite senior or doing more than 40 regular hours a week (which previosly nobbled you for AA through taper). So for many, it's an additional factor which causes senior medics to limit hours.