Public emergency alert - being sent to your phone
Discussion
Griffith4ever said:
I turned it off the second I heard about it. Get the F-out of my phone. I can see a storm coming. I can't outrun a nuke. I know when it's windy. We dont' have gunmen on the rampage in the UK. Flooding takes time. I'll survive.
By the time you can feel it is windy/flooding by looking around you it is inevitably too late. That's why we have warning systems in place for various industries (fishing, railways etc) already. If there is "mission creep" or there are regular useless messages that are not relevant in the future, then i may well turn it off. It's not compulsory after all. But I'm not going to get into a lather about having a message sent to my phone once in a while.
I find it weird that people get exorcised about this but are quite happy to let Amazon, Google, Apple, Deliveroo, etc etc etc, send them messages every five minutes, know their exact location and know pretty much everything they buy, read and listen to.
Sway said:
MYOB said:
surveyor said:
After all, why would you want to know about an emergency situation developing that might affect you? It's a single text message, not a tax return!
If this system was live during covid, how many “emergency” warnings would we have received?I have nothing against warnings for true emergencies, but my opinion is that the Govt will misuse it and send daft stuff such as “Wash hands, mask up and keep your distance” and other silly messages.
Of course, by opting out now, you'll also lose the chance to say 'I told you so' (and then opting out).
Countdown said:
Griffith4ever said:
I'd actually say it has really shown how many people STILL refer to anyone with a distrust of our government as a "conspiracy theorist" (to dismiss their opinions as worthless/insane ramblings), even given the recent "revelations" (was no surprise to me) of how our government acted during the pandemic. The people "you" are referring to as "conspiracy theorists" have largely had their recent views and suspicions validated.
You'd do well to take their opinions more seriously.
I do. They've been more "right" than than the "do as you are told"/"what harm does it do?" brigade in recent years.
I turned it off the second I heard about it. Get the F-out of my phone. I can see a storm coming. I can't outrun a nuke. I know when it's windy. We dont' have gunmen on the rampage in the UK. Flooding takes time. I'll survive.
I don't for one second think there is a bigger picture re. this phone intrusion. But as said above, mission creep is becoming almost predicatble.
I'm genuinely curious. Where have the Wibblers been proven "right"? You'd do well to take their opinions more seriously.
I do. They've been more "right" than than the "do as you are told"/"what harm does it do?" brigade in recent years.
I turned it off the second I heard about it. Get the F-out of my phone. I can see a storm coming. I can't outrun a nuke. I know when it's windy. We dont' have gunmen on the rampage in the UK. Flooding takes time. I'll survive.
I don't for one second think there is a bigger picture re. this phone intrusion. But as said above, mission creep is becoming almost predicatble.
Edited by Griffith4ever on Tuesday 28th March 13:37
Was it actually a case where, out of 100 Wibble Theories ONE theory turned out to be right and now everything they've said is "Right"?
Our government employees LIE to us and make decisions based on politics rather than science. There you go - something for you to search on.
boyse7en said:
I find it weird that people get exorcised about this but are quite happy to let Amazon, Google, Apple, Deliveroo, etc etc etc, send them messages every five minutes, know their exact location and know pretty much everything they buy, read and listen to.
They opt IN to all the above. And presumably, trust amazon and deliveroo more than they trust Whitehall.We have to opt OUT of this, and 99% of people had NO idea it was even on their phone as an option. Politicians are on the whole, bent, and I'm not interested in the slightest letting them have access to send me notifications I never signed up to.
I'm not in any kind of lather, not until at least 7pm this evening, but on the other hand, I'm quite resolute in switching it off. Enough government meddling and nannying. Bugger off.
otolith said:
On the scale of government interventions in daily life, the ability to pop up an emergency message on people's phones (which they can opt out of getting) is such an irrelevance that I find it unfathomable that anybody could give a toss.
The message itself is an irrelevance, yes. The annoyance comes from the government spending more tax payers money on something that, as far as I can tell, nobody asked for and some people do not want.Some background, the U.K. tax burden has gone from £295 billion in 99/00 to £745 billion in 21/22. Had the 99/00 number just increased with inflation it would have been ~£490 billion, i forget the exact number. Tax burden has increased 45% above inflation, and as far as I can see, we get less than we did. When is it going to stop, it won’t until we start to make noise about waste, because that’s what this system is, like this.
MYOB said:
surveyor said:
After all, why would you want to know about an emergency situation developing that might affect you? It's a single text message, not a tax return!
If this system was live during covid, how many “emergency” warnings would we have received?I have nothing against warnings for true emergencies, but my opinion is that the Govt will misuse it and send daft stuff such as “Wash hands, mask up and keep your distance” and other silly messages.
boyse7en said:
Griffith4ever said:
I turned it off the second I heard about it. Get the F-out of my phone. I can see a storm coming. I can't outrun a nuke. I know when it's windy. We dont' have gunmen on the rampage in the UK. Flooding takes time. I'll survive.
By the time you can feel it is windy/flooding by looking around you it is inevitably too late. That's why we have warning systems in place for various industries (fishing, railways etc) already. If there is "mission creep" or there are regular useless messages that are not relevant in the future, then i may well turn it off. It's not compulsory after all. But I'm not going to get into a lather about having a message sent to my phone once in a while.
I find it weird that people get exorcised about this but are quite happy to let Amazon, Google, Apple, Deliveroo, etc etc etc, send them messages every five minutes, know their exact location and know pretty much everything they buy, read and listen to.
boyse7en said:
Griffith4ever said:
I turned it off the second I heard about it. Get the F-out of my phone. I can see a storm coming. I can't outrun a nuke. I know when it's windy. We dont' have gunmen on the rampage in the UK. Flooding takes time. I'll survive.
By the time you can feel it is windy/flooding by looking around you it is inevitably too late. That's why we have warning systems in place for various industries (fishing, railways etc) already. If there is "mission creep" or there are regular useless messages that are not relevant in the future, then i may well turn it off. It's not compulsory after all. But I'm not going to get into a lather about having a message sent to my phone once in a while.
I find it weird that people get exorcised about this but are quite happy to let Amazon, Google, Apple, Deliveroo, etc etc etc, send them messages every five minutes, know their exact location and know pretty much everything they buy, read and listen to.
Of course, all the wibble PHers know this will be used to send a message about 1mm of rain every day, as that's what the government does. They got it spot on about covid, all those restrictions brought in were never removed as that's what the government does...
(And just to make it clear, I don't think the government are great, just I don't think we need to hid under a rock about anything they do, and even if they do go into mission creep (doubtful) then you can turn it off then. Still, worst case we'll just see a few of the nutters removed from the gene pool because they know best and turned it off because of those b
ds in power are only doing it to turn everyone into sheeples. Megaflow said:
It probably isn’t how the system is used elsewhere. There are two key differences though, 1) other countries that have the system have a genuine need for it, in my life time there has been nothing happen in this country that was such a threat to life that required a system like this and 2) we have seen the crap this country posts on motorway gantries, etc why do you think a system like this will be exempt from being abused
Without even trying I can think of a couple of dozen examples in my lifetime where this would have been useful for the local populace.Or are you suggesting there's never been a flash flood, or lightning storm, tornado (we get more than the US, they're just smaller), gunman, bomb threat/explosion, major car crash, riot, etc., in the UK in your lifetime?
Megaflow said:
The message itself is an irrelevance, yes. The annoyance comes from the government spending more tax payers money on something that, as far as I can tell, nobody asked for and some people do not want.
Some background, the U.K. tax burden has gone from £295 billion in 99/00 to £745 billion in 21/22. Had the 99/00 number just increased with inflation it would have been ~£490 billion, i forget the exact number. Tax burden has increased 45% above inflation, and as far as I can see, we get less than we did. When is it going to stop, it won’t until we start to make noise about waste, because that’s what this system is, like this.
As a percentage of GDP it's remained fairly constant. In short taxes have gone up because total income has gone up. And spending will have gone up because demand has gone up. But surely you knew that already?Some background, the U.K. tax burden has gone from £295 billion in 99/00 to £745 billion in 21/22. Had the 99/00 number just increased with inflation it would have been ~£490 billion, i forget the exact number. Tax burden has increased 45% above inflation, and as far as I can see, we get less than we did. When is it going to stop, it won’t until we start to make noise about waste, because that’s what this system is, like this.
Sway said:
Without even trying I can think of a couple of dozen examples in my lifetime where this would have been useful for the local populace.
Or are you suggesting there's never been a flash flood, or lightning storm, tornado (we get more than the US, they're just smaller), gunman, bomb threat/explosion, major car crash, riot, etc., in the UK in your lifetime?
Let’s go through your list:Or are you suggesting there's never been a flash flood, or lightning storm, tornado (we get more than the US, they're just smaller), gunman, bomb threat/explosion, major car crash, riot, etc., in the UK in your lifetime?
Flash flood, by the very nature of them they happen very quickly. This system will prove to be almost entirely useless in providing useful information about.
Lighting storm, we already a ‘warning system’ for these, it is the weather forecast.
Tornado, see both responses above, they either happen very quickly or covered by a weather forecast.
Gunman. So staggeringly rare, I can think of two in my life time, that the need and local nature of the incident doesn’t warrant national system.
Bomb threat/explosion, the local element of this mentioned above covers this, but we also survived just fine in the 70’s/80’s when the IRA were most active without this system.
Car crash, with the possible exception of the Kent bridge crash, which is still covered by the local information angle, I can’t think of a car crash which is major enough to warrant nation emergency notification.
So, yes, I am suggesting that I have survived nearly 50 years without being notified of any of the above as a ‘national emergency’ and I fully expect that to continue just fine with them turned off.
But, and this is the crucial part, as a tax payer and electorate I still have the right to complain how my taxes are being spent though.
Countdown said:
Megaflow said:
The message itself is an irrelevance, yes. The annoyance comes from the government spending more tax payers money on something that, as far as I can tell, nobody asked for and some people do not want.
Some background, the U.K. tax burden has gone from £295 billion in 99/00 to £745 billion in 21/22. Had the 99/00 number just increased with inflation it would have been ~£490 billion, i forget the exact number. Tax burden has increased 45% above inflation, and as far as I can see, we get less than we did. When is it going to stop, it won’t until we start to make noise about waste, because that’s what this system is, like this.
As a percentage of GDP it's remained fairly constant. In short taxes have gone up because total income has gone up. And spending will have gone up because demand has gone up. But surely you knew that already?Some background, the U.K. tax burden has gone from £295 billion in 99/00 to £745 billion in 21/22. Had the 99/00 number just increased with inflation it would have been ~£490 billion, i forget the exact number. Tax burden has increased 45% above inflation, and as far as I can see, we get less than we did. When is it going to stop, it won’t until we start to make noise about waste, because that’s what this system is, like this.
Sway said:
Without even trying I can think of a couple of dozen examples in my lifetime where this would have been useful for the local populace.
Or are you suggesting there's never been a flash flood, or lightning storm, tornado (we get more than the US, they're just smaller), gunman, bomb threat/explosion, major car crash, riot, etc., in the UK in your lifetime?
Ironically one of the most significant recent events where a system like this might have been used was the July 2005 bombings in London. However one of my strongest recollections of that day is that cellphones were disabled right across the city.Or are you suggesting there's never been a flash flood, or lightning storm, tornado (we get more than the US, they're just smaller), gunman, bomb threat/explosion, major car crash, riot, etc., in the UK in your lifetime?
Megaflow said:
Sway said:
Without even trying I can think of a couple of dozen examples in my lifetime where this would have been useful for the local populace.
Or are you suggesting there's never been a flash flood, or lightning storm, tornado (we get more than the US, they're just smaller), gunman, bomb threat/explosion, major car crash, riot, etc., in the UK in your lifetime?
Let’s go through your list:Or are you suggesting there's never been a flash flood, or lightning storm, tornado (we get more than the US, they're just smaller), gunman, bomb threat/explosion, major car crash, riot, etc., in the UK in your lifetime?
Flash flood, by the very nature of them they happen very quickly. This system will prove to be almost entirely useless in providing useful information about.
Lighting storm, we already a ‘warning system’ for these, it is the weather forecast.
Tornado, see both responses above, they either happen very quickly or covered by a weather forecast.
Gunman. So staggeringly rare, I can think of two in my life time, that the need and local nature of the incident doesn’t warrant national system.
Bomb threat/explosion, the local element of this mentioned above covers this, but we also survived just fine in the 70’s/80’s when the IRA were most active without this system.
Car crash, with the possible exception of the Kent bridge crash, which is still covered by the local information angle, I can’t think of a car crash which is major enough to warrant nation emergency notification.
So, yes, I am suggesting that I have survived nearly 50 years without being notified of any of the above as a ‘national emergency’ and I fully expect that to continue just fine with them turned off.
But, and this is the crucial part, as a tax payer and electorate I still have the right to complain how my taxes are being spent though.
Whilst it's a national system, the notifications can go out to a single mobile phone 'cell'.
It's a local system, deployed nationally.
Before getting my shaman suit on and storming Whitehall over the "waste" of funds, I'd ask 1. how much does this actually cost, 2. and how much do the existing civil emergency warning systems cost?
You know we have those, right?
That it's a statutory duty, laid out in the Civil Contingencies Act 2004?
And that the recommendation to implement a system like this was made ten years ago?
You know we have those, right?
That it's a statutory duty, laid out in the Civil Contingencies Act 2004?
And that the recommendation to implement a system like this was made ten years ago?
Megaflow said:
Let’s go through your list:
Flash flood, by the very nature of them they happen very quickly. This system will prove to be almost entirely useless in providing useful information about.
Lighting storm, we already a ‘warning system’ for these, it is the weather forecast.
Tornado, see both responses above, they either happen very quickly or covered by a weather forecast.
Gunman. So staggeringly rare, I can think of two in my life time, that the need and local nature of the incident doesn’t warrant national system.
Bomb threat/explosion, the local element of this mentioned above covers this, but we also survived just fine in the 70’s/80’s when the IRA were most active without this system.
Car crash, with the possible exception of the Kent bridge crash, which is still covered by the local information angle, I can’t think of a car crash which is major enough to warrant nation emergency notification.
So, yes, I am suggesting that I have survived nearly 50 years without being notified of any of the above as a ‘national emergency’ and I fully expect that to continue just fine with them turned off.
But, and this is the crucial part, as a tax payer and electorate I still have the right to complain how my taxes are being spent though.
Your gunman/terrorist attack scenario....yes it's a national system, but used locally. I.e. targeted to individual mobile masts and the devices connected to them. And as noone really knows where the next attack may occur, having nationwide coverage is useful.Flash flood, by the very nature of them they happen very quickly. This system will prove to be almost entirely useless in providing useful information about.
Lighting storm, we already a ‘warning system’ for these, it is the weather forecast.
Tornado, see both responses above, they either happen very quickly or covered by a weather forecast.
Gunman. So staggeringly rare, I can think of two in my life time, that the need and local nature of the incident doesn’t warrant national system.
Bomb threat/explosion, the local element of this mentioned above covers this, but we also survived just fine in the 70’s/80’s when the IRA were most active without this system.
Car crash, with the possible exception of the Kent bridge crash, which is still covered by the local information angle, I can’t think of a car crash which is major enough to warrant nation emergency notification.
So, yes, I am suggesting that I have survived nearly 50 years without being notified of any of the above as a ‘national emergency’ and I fully expect that to continue just fine with them turned off.
But, and this is the crucial part, as a tax payer and electorate I still have the right to complain how my taxes are being spent though.
Flash flood.....yes, likely to occur too quickly to get an alert out in advance. But a North sea storm surge which could inundate the East Coast which has plenty of warning - quite useful. E.g. 1953. Also if you live in a basement flat in Hammersmith, you might not mind being woken up at 3am to be informed the Thames will shortly be pouring into your bedroom, making your only exit route a bit tricky.
You also have incidents such as the accidental release of chlorine gas in East London last year, where these alerts could've been useful for the local area:
https://www.itv.com/news/london/2022-03-23/several...
The criteria for an alert is not the occurrence of a 'national emergency', it is anything local (or national) that is predicted to happen/escalate (or has already happened) that is a risk to life.
But it's already happened and I'm still alive, I hear you think, what's the point of an alert after the event? Well it's primarily to warn others in the local area, or who may be passing through the area, to minimise ongoing risk. I.e. the chlorine gas/industrial accident scenario.
The alerts will be of most use to adults who have a smartphone but don't do social media, don't check news sites every half an hour or don't have news apps that send push notifications of breaking news. Or basically anyone else in the affected area who happens to be asleep at the time.
Some years ago I used to live near a chemical plant. Every few years they would push a card through the door detailing what to do in an emergency and what the various warning sirens were for. An automated message to every phone would have been quicker and more useful in the event of a chemical release.
I typed a long response to this, that my phone has just eaten.
I’m well aware it is a national system that can be used locally. But, we all know how much the public sector love a bit of the boy who cried wolf and scope creep, look at naming storms because people stopped paying attention to weather warnings because they are issued just about every day.
I’ll step away from this debate now. I won’t succeed in changing the mind of the govern me harder crowd.
I’m well aware it is a national system that can be used locally. But, we all know how much the public sector love a bit of the boy who cried wolf and scope creep, look at naming storms because people stopped paying attention to weather warnings because they are issued just about every day.
I’ll step away from this debate now. I won’t succeed in changing the mind of the govern me harder crowd.
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