Town and (some) City Centres- Terminal Decline?
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
It's the old conundrum: if we want things to stay the same as they were, things must change. There's a cost to this.
Who's willing not to buy items on-line just to keep the high street viable? Who is willing to pay the extra in rates for the investment in infrastructure?
Much as I miss the high street, I doubt I am.
Today I went to Horsham, with its quite vibrant town centre. Plenty of shops, a John Lewis where my wife can spend hours, a Waterstones with its own cafe - great coffee as well, and a range of different types of shops. I bought Xmas presents for my wife last year, and will do so this. They have a scent shop where I had a choice for her birthday. (It should have a chair for shocked customers when we're told of the price.) I walked past four times and saw just one customer. There's large multi-story car parks. It's an out-of-town shopping centre in essence, but in the centre of town. How many can West Sussex support?
I like Chichester. There are a number of car parks, but the A27 is a pain. Always hold-ups, and if someone not familiar with motoring events goes on a Goodwood weekend, tough luck.
Town centres require investment and that means costs for us.
Town centres need investment?Who's willing not to buy items on-line just to keep the high street viable? Who is willing to pay the extra in rates for the investment in infrastructure?
Much as I miss the high street, I doubt I am.
Today I went to Horsham, with its quite vibrant town centre. Plenty of shops, a John Lewis where my wife can spend hours, a Waterstones with its own cafe - great coffee as well, and a range of different types of shops. I bought Xmas presents for my wife last year, and will do so this. They have a scent shop where I had a choice for her birthday. (It should have a chair for shocked customers when we're told of the price.) I walked past four times and saw just one customer. There's large multi-story car parks. It's an out-of-town shopping centre in essence, but in the centre of town. How many can West Sussex support?
I like Chichester. There are a number of car parks, but the A27 is a pain. Always hold-ups, and if someone not familiar with motoring events goes on a Goodwood weekend, tough luck.
Town centres require investment and that means costs for us.
Why in vest in something people no longer need very much?
Apart from people going mental in the 6 week run up to xmas, we'd be better off we shut 2 out of 3 town centres.
Shut Havant apart from a pub and a co-op and Chichester might have enough trade to survive?
OutInTheShed said:
Town centres need investment?
Why in vest in something people no longer need very much?
Apart from people going mental in the 6 week run up to xmas, we'd be better off we shut 2 out of 3 town centres.
Shut Havant apart from a pub and a co-op and Chichester might have enough trade to survive?
I wasn't advocating investing, merely pointing out that centre in decline need some.Why in vest in something people no longer need very much?
Apart from people going mental in the 6 week run up to xmas, we'd be better off we shut 2 out of 3 town centres.
Shut Havant apart from a pub and a co-op and Chichester might have enough trade to survive?
Harry H said:
The only reason I would need to visit a bank these days is for the movement of cash.
Banks really, really don't like cash and want it gone as soon as possible. The less branches the more inconvenient cash is.
[b]If you pay a supplier £50 cash and he moves it on to his provider that £50 will remain £50 forever no matter how long the chain
Conversely £50 on a credit/debit card after 300 transactions down the change with charges attached all belongs to the bank. [/b]
I like most with a card on my phone rarely carry cash now days. It's just too convenient to pay by card. But ultimately the people are going to get poorer whilst the banks get richer. Something we should all bare in mind.
As for town centres. The strong will ultimately get stronger and the small will disappear. The stronger ones will offer not just retail but leisure activities making the whole day out an experience other than just shopping. Day to day stuff will all be online. Parking charges, traffic etc means already popping to the shops is not worth the hassle. But it is if it's a whole day out. The transition is already happening
The challenge is going to be making that retail offering variable and not just identikit big brands.
Except at some point, there is tax to be paid, so the cash has to be paid in somewhere, and it costs the banks more to handle cash, so it's going to become increasingly expensive to bank it.Banks really, really don't like cash and want it gone as soon as possible. The less branches the more inconvenient cash is.
[b]If you pay a supplier £50 cash and he moves it on to his provider that £50 will remain £50 forever no matter how long the chain
Conversely £50 on a credit/debit card after 300 transactions down the change with charges attached all belongs to the bank. [/b]
I like most with a card on my phone rarely carry cash now days. It's just too convenient to pay by card. But ultimately the people are going to get poorer whilst the banks get richer. Something we should all bare in mind.
As for town centres. The strong will ultimately get stronger and the small will disappear. The stronger ones will offer not just retail but leisure activities making the whole day out an experience other than just shopping. Day to day stuff will all be online. Parking charges, traffic etc means already popping to the shops is not worth the hassle. But it is if it's a whole day out. The transition is already happening
The challenge is going to be making that retail offering variable and not just identikit big brands.
I just don't get the dislike of town centre parking charges.
Outside of London (and possibly other big cities) parking is relatively cheap. It certainly wouldn't put me off from visiting a high street. Finding a reason to visit seems to be the main problem.
Town centres have basically been fisted by local planning authorities (probably mostly by their elected members) who seem to have no clue.
Outside of London (and possibly other big cities) parking is relatively cheap. It certainly wouldn't put me off from visiting a high street. Finding a reason to visit seems to be the main problem.
Town centres have basically been fisted by local planning authorities (probably mostly by their elected members) who seem to have no clue.
xx99xx said:
I just don't get the dislike of town centre parking charges.
Outside of London (and possibly other big cities) parking is relatively cheap. It certainly wouldn't put me off from visiting a high street. Finding a reason to visit seems to be the main problem.
Town centres have basically been fisted by local planning authorities (probably mostly by their elected members) who seem to have no clue.
2 hrs for £1 in my local town for the council owned car parks which seems reasonable. Outside of London (and possibly other big cities) parking is relatively cheap. It certainly wouldn't put me off from visiting a high street. Finding a reason to visit seems to be the main problem.
Town centres have basically been fisted by local planning authorities (probably mostly by their elected members) who seem to have no clue.
Free for 4hrs in the in town supermarket (a condition to get planning permission and it is very central). Many said the Sainsbury's would kill the town centre but years on it still has 3 good independent butchers (all been around since the 1800s... great bakeries, a reasonable market, etc. And there is an Asda and Waitrose as well.
xx99xx said:
I just don't get the dislike of town centre parking charges.
Outside of London (and possibly other big cities) parking is relatively cheap. It certainly wouldn't put me off from visiting a high street. Finding a reason to visit seems to be the main problem.
Town centres have basically been fisted by local planning authorities (probably mostly by their elected members) who seem to have no clue.
There's a small town I drive past fairly often.Outside of London (and possibly other big cities) parking is relatively cheap. It certainly wouldn't put me off from visiting a high street. Finding a reason to visit seems to be the main problem.
Town centres have basically been fisted by local planning authorities (probably mostly by their elected members) who seem to have no clue.
It has some good shops including an indy butcher.
Several times, I've tried to stop there, but failed.
The parking is free and full of residents' cars which seem to spend a lot of time unused.
Nowhere for shoppers to park.
Next town down the coast, parking is available but expensive and residential streets get jammed with shop workers parking.
I visited Canterbury for the first time in a few years the other day and the change was stark!.. the previously vibrant department stores have closed among several city centre empty units. In a big student city HMV also departed! . The feel of the demographic was also noticeably different. The centre seemed to have a lot of youths milling around quite menacingly, who appeared to be transient/ of no fixed abode. This impression was confirmed when seeing the plethora of tents along the ring road. I won't be rushing back any time soon. Guess this is at least partially the result of up to 800 people a day arriving on the Kent coast over years. I certainly haven't noticed this in other similar towns and cities I frequent such as Lewes / Tunbridge Wells / Reigate. Perhaps it is the tourist factor that draws the influx. I wouldn't say the city is in terminal decline but it isn't headed in a good direction from what I saw.
Contrast with places I have recently visited that were vibrant and non threatening and entirely pleasant such as Harrogate, St Albans and Norwich.
Contrast with places I have recently visited that were vibrant and non threatening and entirely pleasant such as Harrogate, St Albans and Norwich.
Edited by pitchinginaporsche on Thursday 26th September 10:35
Another shop going from Bournemouth, there are hardly any shops left, good job we now have a Labour MP it helps reinforce the feeling that town has become a true deprived s
thole,
https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/24618961.wh...
thole,https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/24618961.wh...
I was in Chesterfield town centre on Saturday and couldn't believe how much it has declined since I last ventured in. It used to be a thriving town centre with a large open air market and was really busy and bustling on market days, but now it is a shadow of it's former self with what seemed at least 25% of the shops empty and to let and only about a dozen or so market stalls remaining out of what used to be over 200.
The council are doing some regeneration of the main market square in the hope of reviving the town but I fear it may be too little too late.
There has been an attempt to bring life back in to the town centre with some offices on the high street being converted into quite nice apartments but with no parking I can't see who would want to live in them. It will probably end up being filled with unemployed or asylum seekers which will add to issues the town centre already has with drunks/druggies and gangs of youths hanging around.
The council are doing some regeneration of the main market square in the hope of reviving the town but I fear it may be too little too late.
There has been an attempt to bring life back in to the town centre with some offices on the high street being converted into quite nice apartments but with no parking I can't see who would want to live in them. It will probably end up being filled with unemployed or asylum seekers which will add to issues the town centre already has with drunks/druggies and gangs of youths hanging around.
The biggest problem in my opinion is the downgrading of the shops and service industries, which in turn reduces the appeal of town/city centres as places to visit.
Looking at my local City - Cambridge; when I first started work (considerably less than half a century ago) you could have gone into the centre, walked less than a mile and (assuming you could carry it all!) emerged with a fishing rod, a violin, a shotgun and cartridges, pipe and tobacco, easel and paints, some hinges for the shed door, a budgerigar, a scalextric set and a tennis racket. You could also have chosen between several very nice tea shops or several very dodgy boozers if you needed refreshment during your trip.
There is no way you can duplicate this today, and even if a few of the items above are available, the quality and range would be very poor in comparison. You could, for example, buy a tennis racket in Sports Direct - but not one even a moderate player would be happy with. The tea shops have largely gone, along with the pubs, replaced by pale imitations operated by large chains.
You can blame online shopping, increasing rents etc. etc., but I sometimes wonder if there are wider cultural issues? The old businesses required a great deal of dedication and even imagination from owners, managers and staff, whereas it's comparatively easier to be the franchisee of a generic chain of coffee shops.
Looking at my local City - Cambridge; when I first started work (considerably less than half a century ago) you could have gone into the centre, walked less than a mile and (assuming you could carry it all!) emerged with a fishing rod, a violin, a shotgun and cartridges, pipe and tobacco, easel and paints, some hinges for the shed door, a budgerigar, a scalextric set and a tennis racket. You could also have chosen between several very nice tea shops or several very dodgy boozers if you needed refreshment during your trip.
There is no way you can duplicate this today, and even if a few of the items above are available, the quality and range would be very poor in comparison. You could, for example, buy a tennis racket in Sports Direct - but not one even a moderate player would be happy with. The tea shops have largely gone, along with the pubs, replaced by pale imitations operated by large chains.
You can blame online shopping, increasing rents etc. etc., but I sometimes wonder if there are wider cultural issues? The old businesses required a great deal of dedication and even imagination from owners, managers and staff, whereas it's comparatively easier to be the franchisee of a generic chain of coffee shops.
272BHP said:
What kind of council allows a dozen money laundering stores to operate on their watch?
No-one wants to go to a high street that is chicken shop, nail bar, Turkish barber, charity shop, repeat, repeat.
Corrupt councils are the problem surely?
Charity shops fill a space and are bad for councils as they don't pay much (or any in some cases) rates (?)No-one wants to go to a high street that is chicken shop, nail bar, Turkish barber, charity shop, repeat, repeat.
Corrupt councils are the problem surely?
Councils can't object if there is no change of use for planning?
Councils aren't well organised enough to be corrupt.
My previous suggestin the past, which is potentially just not viable, particularly these days is:
Have high street shops, particularly independents or certain sizes, excempt from VAT.
That provides an immediate saving to customers. It gets them back into the high street. It potentially avoids them buying online despite shopping in-store as they just wanted to see the item
I'm not sure it is recoverable. High streets are just littered with vaping shops, charity shops, betting shops and the odd pub and poundland. Even more built up places.
Probably doesn't help that local councils are struggling and sometimes going bankrupt.
Have high street shops, particularly independents or certain sizes, excempt from VAT.
That provides an immediate saving to customers. It gets them back into the high street. It potentially avoids them buying online despite shopping in-store as they just wanted to see the item
I'm not sure it is recoverable. High streets are just littered with vaping shops, charity shops, betting shops and the odd pub and poundland. Even more built up places.
Probably doesn't help that local councils are struggling and sometimes going bankrupt.
redrabbit29 said:
Probably doesn't help that local councils are struggling and sometimes going bankrupt.
And yet none of them do anything meaningful, bold or ambitious about it. Much like every year we hear it’s drier than ever before and there are water shortages, yet we don’t build reservoirs or infrastructure to move water from where it is to where we need it. Or complain that our railways are overcrowded and overly expensive, but we don’t build any new ones. I swear the underlying problem is that those in power are effectively transient and will likely have moved on long before they have achieved anything so they don’t bother to try. And the next incoming leader wants to set their own path. So nothing ever happens. See May / Johnson / Truss / Sunak. Only ever in power long enough to damage things.
The same thing happens commercially. When something like a technology transformation might take 5 years and the average tenure of a CIO is 4 years, nothing ever gets finished.
272BHP said:
What kind of council allows a dozen money laundering stores to operate on their watch?
No-one wants to go to a high street that is chicken shop, nail bar, Turkish barber, charity shop, repeat, repeat.
Corrupt councils are the problem surely?
If the only "businesses" that can survive economically are the money laundering fronts, what could possibly replace them if the council closed them? No-one wants to go to a high street that is chicken shop, nail bar, Turkish barber, charity shop, repeat, repeat.
Corrupt councils are the problem surely?
I do think it is mostly the councils' fault, but not usually corruption. Greed, incompetence, and ideology have caused many of them to kill their own town and city centres. Not that any of them will ever admit this. They are cornered now. No way back. Expect lots of redevelopment for high density residential with no parking. And a "15 minute" theme.
miniman said:
WH Smith must surely be on a path to only operating in airports, stations and other places with captive audiences that will tolerate £6 for a bag of M&Ms.
I had to go into town last week and made the mistake of wandering in there. Entire isles were completely empty, nothing but a few books and stationery items thrown in a seemingly random order and a few staff members who looked like they were about to top themselves. If it wasn't for their uniform I would have thought I'd walked into one of those random pop up clearance shops. Even CEX was deserted, I guess there's no money in trying to flog your carrier bag of stolen DVDs any more. The one place I did buy something from ended in a long wait as the person in front wanted to pay for a cheap item with a £50 note and the staff didn't know what to do, several homeless people sleeping in doorways, having to dodge promising footballers on e-scooters and for some reason there were flies everywhere. The day they can do eye exams online is the day I never have to step foot there again.CT05 Nose Cone said:
I had to go into town last week and made the mistake of wandering in there. Entire isles were completely empty, nothing but a few books and stationery items thrown in a seemingly random order and a few staff members who looked like they were about to top themselves. If it wasn't for their uniform I would have thought I'd walked into one of those random pop up clearance shops. Even CEX was deserted, I guess there's no money in trying to flog your carrier bag of stolen DVDs any more. The one place I did buy something from ended in a long wait as the person in front wanted to pay for a cheap item with a £50 note and the staff didn't know what to do, several homeless people sleeping in doorways, having to dodge promising footballers on e-scooters and for some reason there were flies everywhere. The day they can do eye exams online is the day I never have to step foot there again.
Agreed, really nothing to go in there for nowadays. One local branch has a Post Office - downstairs - with 2 bored staff and a long queue of oldies buying stamps....
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