Oil tanker & cargo ship collide - North Sea
Discussion
hidetheelephants said:
Feederliners etc are likely to be the first applications of it I expect; frequent port calls and short routes make it a good testbed.
I did some research on it late last year. FWIW, my opinion is there'll still be a master on board, even for cargo vessels (passenger vessels will always have crew on point of principle). But more likely a combined captain & chief engineer role. Principally for 2 reasons - sometimes you still need to hit something with a big hammer to fix it, and when the s
t hits the fan and you've got an unmodelled situation occurring, it's still hard to beat the capabilities of a person to "wing it" and solve the problem. Cpt Sullenberger on the Hudson is a perfect example.The trouble will be that with less people on board and more automation, the crew will just get more bored and pay less attention. It's a tricky balance to get just right. Vast majority of shipping accidents are people related, but when you really drill in to it - it wasn't solely the individual, but it was the environment, the systems, the training, the culture (org & national) and so forth - Herald of Free Enterprise being a great example (which also led to the creation of the MAIB, IIRC). Last time time round I did all this, Herald was new news. Now it's ancient history.
Are merchant sailors trained in damage control and fire fighting? My father was in the RN during the 50s and 60s and said he was a fire fighter first and a sailor second.
Or is it the case that the crew just ride the orange roller coaster in the event of a major incident that affects the immediate seaworthiness of the vessel.
SD.
Or is it the case that the crew just ride the orange roller coaster in the event of a major incident that affects the immediate seaworthiness of the vessel.
SD.
Fire fighting very much so, damage control not really although there's not much most marine engineers won't have a go at given the opportunity. I'm very much in agreement with the saying, "step up into the liferaft", meaning you don't get into the floppy vomit comet until the ship sinks underneath you or threatens to burn you alive.
Edited by hidetheelephants on Tuesday 11th March 19:48
My friend used to be chief engineer in an LNG fleet. One of my favourite (of his very many) stories was when they had a seal blow on a pump once, it was spraying salt water out over one of the active generator sets that he really didn't want to ruin. His temporary solution was to get one of his Fillipino engineers to stand in front of the pump and deflect the spray until they could sort it out. (IIRC something like they needed to start up another pump first before they could isolate this one).
IIRC they also blocked the Panama canal once when they accidentally dropped the anchor. Fortunately didn't go full "Ever Given", so with a few tugs they managed to pull it free.
IIRC they also blocked the Panama canal once when they accidentally dropped the anchor. Fortunately didn't go full "Ever Given", so with a few tugs they managed to pull it free.
4.7AMV8 said:
Lots of twaddle coming out now. Apparently according to some Environmental Professor in the Daily Mail, because its military fuel it will have even worse nasty stuff in it and will kill even more fish stuff!
nonsense, but then considering the publication, understandable. This is standard Jet A1 Certainly Jet A1 isn't great. At least it's not crude oil though!
I vaguely remember during the search for bodies at Lockerbie, they had to put shoes on the dogs since the unburnt jet fuel everywhere would cause chemical burns on their feet (can't find a reference to that though - I might be misremembering).
It's just the daily mail though isn't it. Mostly exists just so we can all laugh at the comments section.
I vaguely remember during the search for bodies at Lockerbie, they had to put shoes on the dogs since the unburnt jet fuel everywhere would cause chemical burns on their feet (can't find a reference to that though - I might be misremembering).
It's just the daily mail though isn't it. Mostly exists just so we can all laugh at the comments section.
RabidGranny said:
This. and she was travelling at 16 knots. I work with Charterparties for tankers and the max speed is 12-13 knots per contract. Even for a small coaster 16 knots is far too quick through coastal waters. They were probably under pressure to make a free berth.
Tankers are designed to do those speeds because that’s what the market demands.Implying that Solong ‘was going to fast for coastal waters’ is non correct.
I have navigated a Feeder container ship in excess of 16kts through the Solent, it’s the watchkeeping at fault, not the speed.
An interesting time for a ship, reportedly carrying toxic chemicals , captained and partly crewed by Russians, to collide with a U.S flagged ship at anchor, containing aviation fuel for U.S. forces. It wouldn't even make a dent in U.S capacity, that's for sure, and inspections of this vessel frequently highlighted poor maintenance and management, so my money is on incompetence/apathy.
AndyAudi said:
Just see the news that captain & crew of Solong are Russian Nationals…. That puts an interesting spin on it
Except we're told it kept a consistent course for hours and had had gone through that spot before on previous trips.So unless they knew months/weeks ahead the ship would anchor in that spot it can't have been intentional.
Having said that it seems a hell of a coincidence.
Arnold Cunningham said:
hidetheelephants said:
Feederliners etc are likely to be the first applications of it I expect; frequent port calls and short routes make it a good testbed.
I did some research on it late last year. FWIW, my opinion is there'll still be a master on board, even for cargo vessels (passenger vessels will always have crew on point of principle). But more likely a combined captain & chief engineer role. Principally for 2 reasons - sometimes you still need to hit something with a big hammer to fix it, and when the st hits the fan and you've got an unmodelled situation occurring, it's still hard to beat the capabilities of a person to "wing it" and solve the problem. Cpt Sullenberger on the Hudson is a perfect example.The trouble will be that with less people on board and more automation, the crew will just get more bored and pay less attention. It's a tricky balance to get just right. Vast majority of shipping accidents are people related, but when you really drill in to it - it wasn't solely the individual, but it was the environment, the systems, the training, the culture (org & national) and so forth - Herald of Free Enterprise being a great example (which also led to the creation of the MAIB, IIRC). Last time time round I did all this, Herald was new news. Now it's ancient history.
hidetheelephants said:
Arnold Cunningham said:
RabidGranny said:
Good to hear from a fellow maritime man btw.
I can only claim to be on the fringe. Marine Engineering degree back in the 90's, then 30 years of IT in the city.A fortuitous event has given me the opportunity for a career change and I'm now back at university studying for a PhD in......autonomous vessels (ish).
It'll be interesting where it goes with respect to safety cases and legal responsibilities.
BikeBikeBIke said:
AndyAudi said:
Just see the news that captain & crew of Solong are Russian Nationals…. That puts an interesting spin on it
Except we're told it kept a consistent course for hours and had had gone through that spot before on previous trips.So unless they knew months/weeks ahead the ship would anchor in that spot it can't have been intentional.
Having said that it seems a hell of a coincidence.
Tom8 said:
Either way the rule of the road still applies so there is no excuse.
For this event - absolutely. I think it's fairly obvious what has happened and hypotheses about how it happened seem to be backed up as more information comes to light.But, for autonomous vessels that we're also talking about - the rule of the road isn't clear at all.
Would an autonomous vessel be considered "Vessel not under command or restricted in their ability" to manoeuvre and display lights and signals accordingly?
But then it gets right of way over other vessels, when perhaps it shouldn't?
Or is the autonomous vessel's MCU computer considered the master? In which case who's responsible if it crashes and who's responsible for making sure it doesn't?
There's also varying degrees of autonomy and working out who or what is in charge for the varying possible levels of autonomy, and when, is also not clear.
If there's a remote monitoring centre - but the vessel runs autonomously - who's considered in charge then. Is it the MCU until such point as it says it's stuck? Or is it the remote monitoring centres?
I certainly don't have the answer, although it is one reason why I believe most, if not all, commercial shipping operations will remain crewed to some degree with a master on board who can at least hit the big red button in emergencies. Or wield the appropriately sized hammer.
And neither do people a lot smarter than me have the answer, yet, although from some of my recent discussions, they're starting to form a bit of a consensus on it all.
Either way, nobody's sure yet, but it's being worked on : https://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/HotTopics/Pages...
AndyAudi said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
AndyAudi said:
Just see the news that captain & crew of Solong are Russian Nationals…. That puts an interesting spin on it
Except we're told it kept a consistent course for hours and had had gone through that spot before on previous trips.So unless they knew months/weeks ahead the ship would anchor in that spot it can't have been intentional.
Having said that it seems a hell of a coincidence.
Apropos of that, when my dad was in his late teens, he lived next door to one of the Humber pilots. Once they'd got ships safely into port, it was customary for the crew on the bridge to break open the drinks cabinet. A lot. Apparently, he often used to arrive home 3 sheets to the wind, driving over various of his kid's toys and bikes and trikes in the process.
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