UK file-sharers will be 'cut off'
Discussion
Other than using entrapment on the torrent networks, how exactly does the ISP know that the content you are sharing is in violation? I'm not a heavy P2P user, but I've pulled in enough Linux images and CC licenced audio/video that someone looking at my traffic might think I'm sharing dodgy content. If the Government want to base the ISP action on receipt of multiple "cease and desist" type letters, how are they going to avoid false positives? How can they possibly use the receipt of x warning letters as the basis for action, when the letters are simply accusations? Where's the burden of proof? They seem to be advocating the ISPs becoming judge, jury and executioner now. That's probably the most worrying aspect to be honest, the fact it seems to be based entirely on accusation rather than evidence and the end user doesn't seem to have any means of defence.
I'm not condoning sharing copyright material, but isn't this simply the modern version of taping something for a friend or lending them a video? The technology has moved ahead and the industry has spent too long trying to resist, now they're whining when in fact they ought to be developing a better model. The likes of iTunes and Amazon mp3 have shown that people will happily PAY for digital content when it isn't crippled with DRM, and Last.fm and Spotify are doubtless the way forward, so where's the major industry equivalent? I'd happily put up with adverts ever so often on that sort of service. I'd ignore them, but I'd happily tolerate them.
All that will happen as a result of this plan is P2P will evolve to have more encryption and the hardcore users will all use darknets or newsgroups, so the industry will never get the major culprits anyway. What do they do then, criminalise all P2P technology and encryption? Quite a few of my friends have large(ish) paid for record collections, most of which are also ripped to mp3 for use on portable players, phones and suchlike. None of us are especially technical, yet I'm fairly confident we could set up something like Oneswarm without too many problems, then just share directly. You could even just chuck a Truecrypt volume in something like Dropbox, set your friends up on a share and then send them the key by other means. Christ, you could just GIVE them a hard drive full of stuff given how cheap storage is now. What can the ISPs do about that? The industry/Government are shutting the stable door long after the horse has bolted, and yet again it'll be the ordinary users who get shafted, as the hardcore pirates are long gone by now. I believe there's already a full copy of the Pirate Bay floating about now, so fat lot of good that trial did!
I'm not condoning sharing copyright material, but isn't this simply the modern version of taping something for a friend or lending them a video? The technology has moved ahead and the industry has spent too long trying to resist, now they're whining when in fact they ought to be developing a better model. The likes of iTunes and Amazon mp3 have shown that people will happily PAY for digital content when it isn't crippled with DRM, and Last.fm and Spotify are doubtless the way forward, so where's the major industry equivalent? I'd happily put up with adverts ever so often on that sort of service. I'd ignore them, but I'd happily tolerate them.
All that will happen as a result of this plan is P2P will evolve to have more encryption and the hardcore users will all use darknets or newsgroups, so the industry will never get the major culprits anyway. What do they do then, criminalise all P2P technology and encryption? Quite a few of my friends have large(ish) paid for record collections, most of which are also ripped to mp3 for use on portable players, phones and suchlike. None of us are especially technical, yet I'm fairly confident we could set up something like Oneswarm without too many problems, then just share directly. You could even just chuck a Truecrypt volume in something like Dropbox, set your friends up on a share and then send them the key by other means. Christ, you could just GIVE them a hard drive full of stuff given how cheap storage is now. What can the ISPs do about that? The industry/Government are shutting the stable door long after the horse has bolted, and yet again it'll be the ordinary users who get shafted, as the hardcore pirates are long gone by now. I believe there's already a full copy of the Pirate Bay floating about now, so fat lot of good that trial did!
Dracoro said:
I think this proves a point that whatever you put people who copy material will not take the blind bit of notice.hornet said:
Other than using entrapment on the torrent networks, how exactly does the ISP know that the content you are sharing is in violation?
The ISP doesn't know (and generally speaking doesn't want to know). However it's trivial for anybody to find out who is downloading a particular torrent, as by its very nature your IP is shared amongst the entire swarm. All the copyright holders have to do is download the torrent and bing, they get the IPs of everybody else that is downloading it. Not that you can't get round it in various ways, but for anonymity your basic torrent download is worse than useless.Fascinating topic, they will never stop internet file sharing, they will always be away around!
SSL encryption through giganews and other such usenet servers springs to mind, not sure how traceable this is? I would imagine not very
and no one can ban you on the bases your using "a lot of bandwidth" surely?
The best way to stop piracy is for the music/film industry to open it up as previously been suggested,
I subscribe to lovefilm on the 14.99 unlimited games and films/blu rays, and also to the giganews diamond plus SSL package.
If I think hm i'm going to be bored tonight, i want to watch a film, I can download the dvd image from giganews (not saying I do) in 2 hours, to get it through love film I have to post a DVD, to them add it to my list, hope they have the one i want in, wait 2 days and it might arrive!
Why can't I just download it from love film? saving on postage, my time and effort and carbon emissions.
The only reason for me to subscribe to lovefilm, over giganews is for blu rays, and games.
The industry needs to move with the times, they're shooting themselves in the foot, it's EASIER to download a DVD or an album illegally than to buy it online or in a shop legally,
SSL encryption through giganews and other such usenet servers springs to mind, not sure how traceable this is? I would imagine not very
and no one can ban you on the bases your using "a lot of bandwidth" surely?
The best way to stop piracy is for the music/film industry to open it up as previously been suggested,
I subscribe to lovefilm on the 14.99 unlimited games and films/blu rays, and also to the giganews diamond plus SSL package.
If I think hm i'm going to be bored tonight, i want to watch a film, I can download the dvd image from giganews (not saying I do) in 2 hours, to get it through love film I have to post a DVD, to them add it to my list, hope they have the one i want in, wait 2 days and it might arrive!
Why can't I just download it from love film? saving on postage, my time and effort and carbon emissions.
The only reason for me to subscribe to lovefilm, over giganews is for blu rays, and games.
The industry needs to move with the times, they're shooting themselves in the foot, it's EASIER to download a DVD or an album illegally than to buy it online or in a shop legally,
its a case of convienience. sometimes i'll finish work at 4am and feel like chilling out with a beer and a movie. at 4am. so i'll watch one i've "borrowed".
sure if i feel like watching at movie at 7pm i'll go to the cinema.
and alot of music made today is utter garbage. maybe thats a reason for falling music sales?
sure if i feel like watching at movie at 7pm i'll go to the cinema.
and alot of music made today is utter garbage. maybe thats a reason for falling music sales?
giganews works to the best of my understanding in the following way;
They have their own private servers, so your not sharing with other users, your literally downloading straight from them like when you download a file off of a website, its stored on usenet which is a bit different to the ineternet, and the maximum file size on usenet is quite small around 20mb?
as such the files come down in many many small parts, so you download say 20 at a time, this combined with it being a private server means, you can normally download at your full bandwidth (e.g. 8mb) the whole of the time, rather than bit torrent which is quite slow.
SSL encryptions means its encrypted at their end before it's sent to you then you decrypt it at your end, put all the files together, check they all add up, then extract them into one file(s), concequently it's not possible for your isp to see what your downloading
in order to find the files you need on giganews's server you need to either browse newsgroups or use something like newzbin.com to locate them quickly.
Thats about the jist of it, there's a lot of legal stuff on giganews's server too, e.g. its great for downloading the latest linux distros or anything else of a large file size very quickly
They have their own private servers, so your not sharing with other users, your literally downloading straight from them like when you download a file off of a website, its stored on usenet which is a bit different to the ineternet, and the maximum file size on usenet is quite small around 20mb?
as such the files come down in many many small parts, so you download say 20 at a time, this combined with it being a private server means, you can normally download at your full bandwidth (e.g. 8mb) the whole of the time, rather than bit torrent which is quite slow.
SSL encryptions means its encrypted at their end before it's sent to you then you decrypt it at your end, put all the files together, check they all add up, then extract them into one file(s), concequently it's not possible for your isp to see what your downloading
in order to find the files you need on giganews's server you need to either browse newsgroups or use something like newzbin.com to locate them quickly.
Thats about the jist of it, there's a lot of legal stuff on giganews's server too, e.g. its great for downloading the latest linux distros or anything else of a large file size very quickly
I am still convinced that a lot of the illegal downloading is caused by the crazy film and TV licensing situation. A lot of people I know actually download the latest films and series from the States rather than wait for it to come out over here so they can chat online about it to their mates in the US. Most of them will also get the BD or DVD when it is out here as well. There is no legitimate reason for the staggered releases at all.
I suspect that the decrease in music sales is caused by the utter s
te that the music industry is pumping out these days.
For all those who are annoyed by the copyright warnings and videos, if you download the film then you don't get it. Ironic eh.... Also things like DRM only cause the legitimate customer irritation. There is always a way of copying media and if you download stuff then you don't have problems viewing it how you want to.
I suspect that the decrease in music sales is caused by the utter s
te that the music industry is pumping out these days.For all those who are annoyed by the copyright warnings and videos, if you download the film then you don't get it. Ironic eh.... Also things like DRM only cause the legitimate customer irritation. There is always a way of copying media and if you download stuff then you don't have problems viewing it how you want to.
Mr E said:
JagLover said:
Semantics really.
It costs a few pence to make a CD/DVD you are paying for the information encoded thereon.
Possibly, but legally quite different.It costs a few pence to make a CD/DVD you are paying for the information encoded thereon.
If I steal a DVD from you, you no longer have it and cannot enjoy it or sell it.
If I take a copy of it, you are in no way impacted. You can still do all the things you previously could.
The copyright holder is impacted, as one could try to make the assumption that I have deprived him of appropriate royalties for his work, but it is not theft.
Which is why I think everyone should complain to the ASA about the "piracy is theft" adverts - as it demonstrably isn't.
I suppose it could be synonomous to an idea or invention that makes money, would you be happy i copied it and deprived you of money? After all, you have the original ? Copyright (and well patents but lets not digress) is supposed to guarantee you a monopoly, when someone copies your work, they are depriving you of it.
hornet said:
All that will happen as a result of this plan is P2P will evolve to have more encryption and the hardcore users will all use darknets or newsgroups, so the industry will never get the major culprits anyway. What do they do then, criminalise all P2P technology and encryption? Quite a few of my friends have large(ish) paid for record collections, most of which are also ripped to mp3 for use on portable players, phones and suchlike. None of us are especially technical, yet I'm fairly confident we could set up something like Oneswarm without too many problems, then just share directly. You could even just chuck a Truecrypt volume in something like Dropbox, set your friends up on a share and then send them the key by other means. Christ, you could just GIVE them a hard drive full of stuff given how cheap storage is now. What can the ISPs do about that? The industry/Government are shutting the stable door long after the horse has bolted, and yet again it'll be the ordinary users who get shafted, as the hardcore pirates are long gone by now. I believe there's already a full copy of the Pirate Bay floating about now, so fat lot of good that trial did!
Very true... take away these means and the others just become more popular again. Ie, 'real life' sharing.OK, dodgy Dave down the market selling DVD copies and making money off it, bad. But a group of mates who all know each other and like lots of different music probably have most stuff, and would happily share it all to cut the cost by many times, and be almost totally undetectable. A HDD or even a 32gig iPhone can now carry oodles of music easily.
It is just laughable that the industry, and ISP/Government are throwing so much at this. Clearly they have little grasp of the issues, or some companies/consultants somewhere know that it won't do much, but are rubbing their hands at the fees they will be getting!
teapea said:
The industry needs to move with the times, they're shooting themselves in the foot, it's EASIER to download a DVD or an album illegally than to buy it online or in a shop legally,
Same with games etc. You have to remember your passwords, codes, keep your DVD etc, and wait a while for them to boot up etc.The copies just sit on the HDD, loads instantly, and just always work.
The legitimate buyers get screwed in every single way. Great incentive.
I use Steam for a lot of my PC games now, since they all just run quickly from one account, download quickly too, and it just works. Buying a boxed game these days just feels silly because of all the crap the 'protectionists' throw on their trying to stop it from getting cracked/copied making it harder to use (despite it being available for download before it even hits the shops
)Gah!
It is no wonder people just download stuff for free, like you say, it is EASIER, irrespective of the cost (I pay for loads of apps on my iPhone, because it's EASY to do so, I buy lots of food on-line, because it is easier than going to a supermarket)
Dave
scorp said:
This point always comes up on P&P, and god knows how many times i've replied to it
I suppose it could be synonomous to an idea or invention that makes money, would you be happy i copied it and deprived you of money? After all, you have the original ? Copyright (and well patents but lets not digress) is supposed to guarantee you a monopoly, when someone copies your work, they are depriving you of it.
They're not depriving you of the item or idea though. You still have it. Which is why it is not theft. It's a completely different (and potentially no less serious crime).I suppose it could be synonomous to an idea or invention that makes money, would you be happy i copied it and deprived you of money? After all, you have the original ? Copyright (and well patents but lets not digress) is supposed to guarantee you a monopoly, when someone copies your work, they are depriving you of it.
The case can then be made that the infringement cost you (the copyright holder) financial loss. If you can convince the court of this, the infringer will be ordered to pay accordingly.
It's still not theft.
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