Obama; France is the USA's Strongest Ally

[Kermit power]

eharding said:

Kermit power said:

poppet

Kylie's Law: "As a PistonHead forum thread grows longer, the probability of someone being referred to as 'Poppet' approaches 1, and the probability of the 'poppet' in question reacting in a positive manner is invariably 0"

I don't really see how his reaction can become less positive than his reactions already have been though!

[davepoth]

Bing o said:

davepoth said:

Wind it back a bit. France has been trimming back its armed forces too. I don't think anyone noticed though. Look at this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_a...

but when we do the same all hell breaks loose in Washington:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/24/world/europe/24a...

I'm sure Obama recognises the importance of the UK in turning the USA's expeditions into multilateral affairs, but I can see that if what he believes happened to his grandad did actually happen, he would be rightly a bit stand-offish.

Oh good, can we go back to hating teh Yanks for the War of Independence, or making us split up our Empire after WWII, or producing Friends?

I don't think the US had much to do with the end of Empire, it was mainly India asking for independance that did it. And after the biggest bit had become independant, there wasn't much point arguing with the rest.

Obama's feelings on the matter are much more personal than the examples you suggest. For example, an older guy I know refuses to buy Japanese cars because of what happened to his uncle in the east during WW2. I'm not attempting to justify it in any way, but those feelings are real. It just happens that The Most Powerful Man in the World (tm) happens to have them.

[Bing o]

davepoth said:

I'm not attempting to justify it in any way, but those feelings are real. It just happens that The Most Powerful Man in the World (tm) happens to have them.

What's this got to do with Hu Jintao?








merely making the point that Obama is almost already a lame duck president, nothing more, move along, nothing to see here

[Ordinary_Chap]

Bing o said:

davepoth said:

I'm not attempting to justify it in any way, but those feelings are real. It just happens that The Most Powerful Man in the World (tm) happens to have them.

What's this got to do with Hu Jintao?








merely making the point that Obama is almost already a lame duck president, nothing more, move along, nothing to see here

Almost? More like completely.

He's mocked at every level and declared his biggest ally was someone who has openly questioned his ability and also mocked him for fun.

He's America's Gordon Brown.

[Globs]

Kermit power said:

I've said that I favour a lot of UKIP's policy objectives, even if I think they themselves are an absurd farce.

That 'farce' of a party polled 5.6% in the latest by election.

The party who won that by-election has bankrupted this country and left us with an immigration problem, a housing problem, a pension problem, a debt problem, an ambulance chaser problem, a student and student loan problem, a cost of living problem, a tax/growth problem, an EU problem and a liberty and rights problem. You don't mention them though, you pick on the smallest party who actually does bat for England and attack them. I suggest then that the farce is you.

Kermit power said:

Just to add for the sake of clarification, by "English Independence Party", I mean a party promoting the end of the Union and the return to England as a sovereign nation. Were such a party to exist

And now you bang on about a party that doesn't even exist!!


BTW feel free to call me poppet darling, how could I possibly be annoyed at someone I don't respect?

[Kermit power]

Globs said:

Kermit power said:

I've said that I favour a lot of UKIP's policy objectives, even if I think they themselves are an absurd farce.

That 'farce' of a party polled 5.6% in the latest by election.

Do you honestly think that is anything other than laughable?

It's a by-election. As always in by-elections, turnout is low, and minority parties usually do better than they do in general elections, because people think it doesn't really count.

As usual, the party in power have taken a kicking. No surprise there, especially considering the cuts being put through, and I don't see anyone on here trying to suggest that the coalition is winning any popularity contests.

Unusual, of course, is the fact that the by-election is only taking place because the previous Labour candidate was found to have lied during the previous election campaign.

So where does that leave us? Surely with a perfect storm for UKIP? The people of Oldham East & Saddleworth have good reasons at the moment to dislike all three of the main parties. According to the poll posted on this thread, it's reasonable to assume that over half of them want to pull Britain out of the EU, and UKIP is the only party supporting them on that critical issue. How can this possibly be anything other than the moment for UKIP to shine?

What must Farage and co been thinking when the ballot boxes closed and the count began? A chance to poll in double figures? Maybe take third place? Who knows, maybe even better! After all, the EU is the big ogre, and every other party has given people in this constituency reason to dislike them!

Of course, now it's the morning after, so let's tiptoe quietly over to the UKIP website (not too much noise now, they're probably still sleeping off the celebrations) to see how they have announced their triumphant gains...

Nuttal saves deposit in Oldham!

UKIP's best chance to perform in years, and the best they can come up with is "we didn't lose our deposit!"

I can only see two possible conclusions to draw from that result.

1. Most people couldn't care less about the EU one way or the other. If asked in an opinion poll, they will express an opinion, just as they would if asked about fox hunting or plans to build new wind farms or nuclear reactors, but they have far more important things to worry about, and UKIP are only ever going to be a minority party representing a minority concern.

Or

2. Lots of people do care about the EU, and would desperately like to pull out tomorrow, but they look at that laughable buffoon Farage and his mates and think "I just can't vote for these jokers no matter how much I support their stance on Europe".

Which is it? It has to be one or the other, surely. If a significant proportion of the population felt strongly about leaving the EU and also felt they could put their faith in UKIP, then how could they possibly fail to shine in this by-election???

And yet, there they are, in what should've been their finest hour, and the best they can come up with is "we didn't lost our deposit." It's pathetic!

Given the fact that UKIP manage to come second in European elections and then consistently crash and burn as soon as they stand for any elections where there is a vague chance that they might actually end up representing people at a constituency level, I would have to assume it's probably more a case of people just not caring about the EU enough for it to influence their view of the world.

Globs said:

The party who won that by-election has bankrupted this country and left us with an immigration problem, a housing problem, a pension problem, a debt problem, an ambulance chaser problem, a student and student loan problem, a cost of living problem, a tax/growth problem, an EU problem and a liberty and rights problem. You don't mention them though, you pick on the smallest party who actually does bat for England and attack them. I suggest then that the farce is you.

My apologies. I had assumed that complete and utter contempt and loathing for the Labour Party in all its incarnations, both past and present could be taken as a given when posting on here. It would be nice to think that they will never take power again (although I fear UKIP splitting the Tory vote in the last general election has ensured that they will), but one thing that can be said for UKIP is that at least sometimes it's nice to watch them or the Greenies push Labour into fourth place somewhere or other.

[Globs]

Kermit power said:

It would be nice to think that they will never take power again (although I fear UKIP splitting the Tory vote in the last general election has ensured that they will)

While it is true that the Tories have no control over UKIP, they have control over their own policies.

As they deliberately chose to make themselves impossible to vote for by a large section of their former supporters I feel the blame is where it belongs, at Cameron's door. Over-riding local selection and all the usual conservative values caused their voting split.

If I had not had a UKIP candidate to vote for I would have voted independent or not bothered. If you are really saying people should vote for a party even though they don't want to - why bother having elections. Although as an EU-phile I guess you don't see the need for democracy anyway.

[Kermit power]

Globs said:

Kermit power said:

It would be nice to think that they will never take power again (although I fear UKIP splitting the Tory vote in the last general election has ensured that they will)

While it is true that the Tories have no control over UKIP, they have control over their own policies.

As they deliberately chose to make themselves impossible to vote for by a large section of their former supporters I feel the blame is where it belongs, at Cameron's door. Over-riding local selection and all the usual conservative values caused their voting split.

I know you're desperate to believe that, but yesterday's by-election result just makes a complete mockery of the notion, doesn't it? Certainly on here and places like it UKIP may find themselves with a significant amount of support from disgruntled ex-Tories, but here is just one small corner of the internet, and hardly a representative one.

Out in the real world, take a look at the polling. As an example, the Ipsos Mori issues index for June 2009 Why June 2009? Because that's what I happened to find on the internet. I'd be happy to look at any other similar polls.

Whilst people might, by a slight margin, come down as against the EU when asked a straight for/against question, when asked how important people think the EU is, it barely even registers. Only 1% of voters polled rated the EU as the most important issue facing Britain today, and barely 4% of respondents even included it as a significant issue. People are against the EU in the same way that they're against cabbage. They might not like it much, but they'll just leave it on the side of their plate and forget about it.

It's clear from what you've said on here that you think Cameron and his cronies are self-serving and just out for whatever they can get for themselves. I wouldn't disagree with you on that, but I do also believe the Tory party machine is very good at working out just what policies to play for the best results, and an anti-EU stance just isn't one of them.

Globs said:

Although as an EU-phile I guess you don't see the need for democracy anyway.

You really are even more desperate to believe this bit, aren't you!

[Ozzie Osmond]

Globs said:

If I had not had a UKIP candidate to vote for I would have voted independent or not bothered. If you are really saying people should vote for a party even though they don't want to - why bother having elections. Although as an EU-phile I guess you don't see the need for democracy anyway.

I imagine the "thinking" parties were very pleased you took your vote elsewhere.

[KANEIT]

Just go and get a fking room you two, please.

[Dave Angel]

KANEIT said:

Just go and get a fking room you two, please.