Stock market is a "fully-fledged epic bubble" and will burst
Discussion
I see on Twitter a few people getting excited and claiming 'Reddit has brought down capitalism' and that this is the beginning of the end etc.
To my not-very-knowledgeable eyes that's a bit far fetched and this is just a single case of one stock having a set of circumstances that means some funds have been caught with their pants down.
To my not-very-knowledgeable eyes that's a bit far fetched and this is just a single case of one stock having a set of circumstances that means some funds have been caught with their pants down.
Not that I have any intent of gambling on something I don’t understand, but.
If someone looked at this insanity, concluded that a stock was overvalued, is there a way of shorting that has can limit the loss?
I know if I buy a £1 of stock, and it becomes worthless I’ve only lost the initial £1.
If I borrow a stock to short at a £1, and it becomes immensely valuable I don’t know what my eventual liability might be.
If someone looked at this insanity, concluded that a stock was overvalued, is there a way of shorting that has can limit the loss?
I know if I buy a £1 of stock, and it becomes worthless I’ve only lost the initial £1.
If I borrow a stock to short at a £1, and it becomes immensely valuable I don’t know what my eventual liability might be.
Clive Milk said:
Round 3 today, looks like although some hedge funds have retreated badly beaten others think the time is right and have stepped into the battle. Have they gone in to early?
I see futures in GME went down overnight as the reddit subreddit got made private, but it is up again and the futures in GME are back near to the closing price. For a watcher this is better than next weeks superbowl
It's just like this:-
Will the attacking reddit day traders let the hedgers live ?
I'm not sure why the SEC and the Biden administration is getting involved. For years hedge funds have done insider dealing etc, such as SAC, etc and then been fined and then come back, this is all out in the open, the information is known and the day traders are simply using how the market works.
What is different here is that people are using social media to pass information quickly and do a group buy, but it has the authorities worried about stability. Rather than castigate the day traders why not change the way short selling works? After all, the authorities occasionally stop short selling, how is that not "fixing" the market a lot more than this is? It certainly is, and that is by the authorities. This is my anarchist side coming out.....
I have been watching a chap on youtube who bought the stock at $4 earlier in the year for honourable reasons, he thought they were undervalued and the management would turn the ship around. He is now living through the most intense week of his life poor sod ! He didn't post yesterday, he may have had to visit the doctors for some calming medicine
Hopefully he will make a good profit and get his life back, he has put money into shares ethically and deserves a win.
The regulator has to be involved because the retail traders are acting in concert to manipulate a market for personal gain. As such they are conducting an illegal activity. I see futures in GME went down overnight as the reddit subreddit got made private, but it is up again and the futures in GME are back near to the closing price. For a watcher this is better than next weeks superbowl
It's just like this:-
Will the attacking reddit day traders let the hedgers live ?
I'm not sure why the SEC and the Biden administration is getting involved. For years hedge funds have done insider dealing etc, such as SAC, etc and then been fined and then come back, this is all out in the open, the information is known and the day traders are simply using how the market works.
What is different here is that people are using social media to pass information quickly and do a group buy, but it has the authorities worried about stability. Rather than castigate the day traders why not change the way short selling works? After all, the authorities occasionally stop short selling, how is that not "fixing" the market a lot more than this is? It certainly is, and that is by the authorities. This is my anarchist side coming out.....
I have been watching a chap on youtube who bought the stock at $4 earlier in the year for honourable reasons, he thought they were undervalued and the management would turn the ship around. He is now living through the most intense week of his life poor sod ! He didn't post yesterday, he may have had to visit the doctors for some calming medicine
Hopefully he will make a good profit and get his life back, he has put money into shares ethically and deserves a win.Edited by Clive Milk on Thursday 28th January 10:26
Mr E said:
Not that I have any intent of gambling on something I don’t understand, but.
If someone looked at this insanity, concluded that a stock was overvalued, is there a way of shorting that has can limit the loss?
I know if I buy a £1 of stock, and it becomes worthless I’ve only lost the initial £1.
If I borrow a stock to short at a £1, and it becomes immensely valuable I don’t know what my eventual liability might be.
You’re absolutely right. Theoretical losses on shorts are unlimited. If someone looked at this insanity, concluded that a stock was overvalued, is there a way of shorting that has can limit the loss?
I know if I buy a £1 of stock, and it becomes worthless I’ve only lost the initial £1.
If I borrow a stock to short at a £1, and it becomes immensely valuable I don’t know what my eventual liability might be.
Hence why there is talk of funds going bust.
DaveA8 said:
Short selling has probably saved a lot of people a lot of money over the years, anybody who has ever invested in a vehicle that invests in a Hedge Fund will have been long/short.
For me the Short sellers here, if they have suffered, only suffered because they were greedy or had poor controls.
The writing was on the wall early last week and if Citron didn't think expansively then, they're not much good.
There is enough instruments and options in US stocks to cover, if they acted quickly and decisively.
This is a superb lesson for us all both long and short,
a stitch in time saves 9
"anybody who has ever invested in a vehicle that invests in a Hedge Fund will have been long/short."For me the Short sellers here, if they have suffered, only suffered because they were greedy or had poor controls.
The writing was on the wall early last week and if Citron didn't think expansively then, they're not much good.
There is enough instruments and options in US stocks to cover, if they acted quickly and decisively.
This is a superb lesson for us all both long and short,
a stitch in time saves 9
Not necessarily
ferrisbueller said:
Things have been changing. T212, and others, stopped accepting orders on GME stock citing issues with their intermediaries. Who did that and why isn't known but obviously there's an impact. Banks' retail departments protecting their other interests?
Part of the rallying cry is how mysterious forces are stepping in to manipulate the system/shift the goalposts, which is akin to the bail outs in 2008. The discord chat server thingy got shutdown due to "hate speech", there have been a lot of bot accounts on reddit spamming that wall street bets subreddit and various other dirty deeds to try to shut this thing down.I'm sure Joe & Co will smooth it over for Wall Street and just so happen to be able to spare an hour or so in 2025 to tell various Wall Street residents about it for a few hundred thou a pop....
DonkeyApple said:
The regulator has to be involved because the retail traders are acting in concert to manipulate a market for personal gain. As such they are conducting an illegal activity.
My limited understanding of the situation is that the punters have reached their house limits and the fun is coming to an end.DonkeyApple said:
Clive Milk said:
Round 3 today, looks like although some hedge funds have retreated badly beaten others think the time is right and have stepped into the battle. Have they gone in to early?
I see futures in GME went down overnight as the reddit subreddit got made private, but it is up again and the futures in GME are back near to the closing price. For a watcher this is better than next weeks superbowl
It's just like this:-
Will the attacking reddit day traders let the hedgers live ?
I'm not sure why the SEC and the Biden administration is getting involved. For years hedge funds have done insider dealing etc, such as SAC, etc and then been fined and then come back, this is all out in the open, the information is known and the day traders are simply using how the market works.
What is different here is that people are using social media to pass information quickly and do a group buy, but it has the authorities worried about stability. Rather than castigate the day traders why not change the way short selling works? After all, the authorities occasionally stop short selling, how is that not "fixing" the market a lot more than this is? It certainly is, and that is by the authorities. This is my anarchist side coming out.....
I have been watching a chap on youtube who bought the stock at $4 earlier in the year for honourable reasons, he thought they were undervalued and the management would turn the ship around. He is now living through the most intense week of his life poor sod ! He didn't post yesterday, he may have had to visit the doctors for some calming medicine Hopefully he will make a good profit and get his life back, he has put money into shares ethically and deserves a win.
The regulator has to be involved because the retail traders are acting in concert to manipulate a market for personal gain. As such they are conducting an illegal activity. I see futures in GME went down overnight as the reddit subreddit got made private, but it is up again and the futures in GME are back near to the closing price. For a watcher this is better than next weeks superbowl
It's just like this:-
Will the attacking reddit day traders let the hedgers live ?
I'm not sure why the SEC and the Biden administration is getting involved. For years hedge funds have done insider dealing etc, such as SAC, etc and then been fined and then come back, this is all out in the open, the information is known and the day traders are simply using how the market works.
What is different here is that people are using social media to pass information quickly and do a group buy, but it has the authorities worried about stability. Rather than castigate the day traders why not change the way short selling works? After all, the authorities occasionally stop short selling, how is that not "fixing" the market a lot more than this is? It certainly is, and that is by the authorities. This is my anarchist side coming out.....
I have been watching a chap on youtube who bought the stock at $4 earlier in the year for honourable reasons, he thought they were undervalued and the management would turn the ship around. He is now living through the most intense week of his life poor sod ! He didn't post yesterday, he may have had to visit the doctors for some calming medicine
Hopefully he will make a good profit and get his life back, he has put money into shares ethically and deserves a win.Edited by Clive Milk on Thursday 28th January 10:26
Where is the manipulation or rule breaking?
As I mentioned before the authorities can even stop people short selling in times of crisis, how is that not manipulating the markets?
ferrisbueller said:
Things have been changing. T212, and others, stopped accepting orders on GME stock citing issues with their intermediaries. Who did that and why isn't known but obviously there's an impact. Banks' retail departments protecting their other interests?
Nope. T212 is a bookmaker. Where the market is too toxic to B Book it doesn't hedge in the underlying as it doesn't have the licenses to permit that but instead sells the flow for a kickback. The third party entity that buys that flow is a dark pool not an exchange. In periods of volatility they won't put that flow into their book because there is no flow in the other side to counter it. This is what really annoys me about retail gamblers. They refuse to even learn the absolute basics of the gateways that they are using to access the markets and instead instantly rationalise issues as voodoo or evil big men colliding against them.
Truckosaurus said:
I see on Twitter a few people getting excited and claiming 'Reddit has brought down capitalism' and that this is the beginning of the end etc.
To my not-very-knowledgeable eyes that's a bit far fetched and this is just a single case of one stock having a set of circumstances that means some funds have been caught with their pants down.
Yup. It's madness. The whole event is an example of perfect capitalism and how it works outside of regulatory and governing frameworks. That the participants subsequently claim it's not capitalism just shows how little reading goes on in huge swathes of modern, monetised society. To my not-very-knowledgeable eyes that's a bit far fetched and this is just a single case of one stock having a set of circumstances that means some funds have been caught with their pants down.
Truckosaurus said:
I see on Twitter a few people getting excited and claiming 'Reddit has brought down capitalism' and that this is the beginning of the end etc.
To my not-very-knowledgeable eyes that's a bit far fetched and this is just a single case of one stock having a set of circumstances that means some funds have been caught with their pants down.
As the main market is not hedge funds this is not true, also these day traders are capitalism based on socialism. The US government keeps giving socialistic handouts out, then the capitalists getting them are buying stocks if they are not needing it for food to try and live the American dream, which is get as rich as other people you envy.To my not-very-knowledgeable eyes that's a bit far fetched and this is just a single case of one stock having a set of circumstances that means some funds have been caught with their pants down.
It's quite refreshing it is actually humans making some money rather than an algorithm for a big firm.
ferrisbueller said:
DonkeyApple said:
The regulator has to be involved because the retail traders are acting in concert to manipulate a market for personal gain. As such they are conducting an illegal activity.
My limited understanding of the situation is that the punters have reached their house limits and the fun is coming to an end.Clive Milk said:
DonkeyApple said:
Clive Milk said:
Round 3 today, looks like although some hedge funds have retreated badly beaten others think the time is right and have stepped into the battle. Have they gone in to early?
I see futures in GME went down overnight as the reddit subreddit got made private, but it is up again and the futures in GME are back near to the closing price. For a watcher this is better than next weeks superbowl
It's just like this:-
Will the attacking reddit day traders let the hedgers live ?
I'm not sure why the SEC and the Biden administration is getting involved. For years hedge funds have done insider dealing etc, such as SAC, etc and then been fined and then come back, this is all out in the open, the information is known and the day traders are simply using how the market works.
What is different here is that people are using social media to pass information quickly and do a group buy, but it has the authorities worried about stability. Rather than castigate the day traders why not change the way short selling works? After all, the authorities occasionally stop short selling, how is that not "fixing" the market a lot more than this is? It certainly is, and that is by the authorities. This is my anarchist side coming out.....
I have been watching a chap on youtube who bought the stock at $4 earlier in the year for honourable reasons, he thought they were undervalued and the management would turn the ship around. He is now living through the most intense week of his life poor sod ! He didn't post yesterday, he may have had to visit the doctors for some calming medicine Hopefully he will make a good profit and get his life back, he has put money into shares ethically and deserves a win.
The regulator has to be involved because the retail traders are acting in concert to manipulate a market for personal gain. As such they are conducting an illegal activity. I see futures in GME went down overnight as the reddit subreddit got made private, but it is up again and the futures in GME are back near to the closing price. For a watcher this is better than next weeks superbowl
It's just like this:-
Will the attacking reddit day traders let the hedgers live ?
I'm not sure why the SEC and the Biden administration is getting involved. For years hedge funds have done insider dealing etc, such as SAC, etc and then been fined and then come back, this is all out in the open, the information is known and the day traders are simply using how the market works.
What is different here is that people are using social media to pass information quickly and do a group buy, but it has the authorities worried about stability. Rather than castigate the day traders why not change the way short selling works? After all, the authorities occasionally stop short selling, how is that not "fixing" the market a lot more than this is? It certainly is, and that is by the authorities. This is my anarchist side coming out.....
I have been watching a chap on youtube who bought the stock at $4 earlier in the year for honourable reasons, he thought they were undervalued and the management would turn the ship around. He is now living through the most intense week of his life poor sod ! He didn't post yesterday, he may have had to visit the doctors for some calming medicine
Hopefully he will make a good profit and get his life back, he has put money into shares ethically and deserves a win.Edited by Clive Milk on Thursday 28th January 10:26
Where is the manipulation or rule breaking?
As I mentioned before the authorities can even stop people short selling in times of crisis, how is that not manipulating the markets?
The exchange itself has a legal remit to maintain an orderly market anyway.
Exchanges can halt short selling, regulators can and so can the stock holders by pulling their lend. It's perfectly legal. What no party can do is to collude to act in concert to achieve a personal material gain.
The problem with retail gamblers is that they treat everything like a football game and make everything a 'them and us' scenario where they are the victim and underdog from inception. The reality is that there is no such thing as 'them and us' in the markets. Once you join the market you are simply 'them'.
DonkeyApple said:
eps said:
The other issue is betting on the market, off market, which then forces those companies that facilitate that to purchase or sell stock to hedge their position. This puts real pressure (both upwards and downwards) on a stock price by an invented means.
Gamestop is fascinating - sure short selling can be good, but being able to sell circa 140% of a companies stock - that just doesn't sound right to me.
Gamestop could still end badly for PIs... Sorry will.
Surely it's a millionaire/billionaire vs millionaire/billionaire situation with a few PIs thrown in for good measure.
It's not 140% of the issued stock, but of the free float of that stock. Given the volatility of that stock it suggests the free float is very small. Gamestop is fascinating - sure short selling can be good, but being able to sell circa 140% of a companies stock - that just doesn't sound right to me.
Gamestop could still end badly for PIs... Sorry will.
Surely it's a millionaire/billionaire vs millionaire/billionaire situation with a few PIs thrown in for good measure.
The short equity positions are facilitated by borrowing outside of the free float from the long term holders who receive premium for lending.
This is why Musk wasn't being entirely kosher when he was complaining about people shorting his company as he was on the other side lending them his stock to do so. He was the one facilitating the shorting. But because he had assigned his stock in a debt deal because he had no cash he wasn't able to stop it as he had also assigned the rights to lend for income over to the bank that had collateralised his stock to give him enough cash to finance his debts. It was a problem of his own making but he was on a soapbox whipping up the rabble to get the blame pointed away from him.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 28th January 10:17
Musk not being kosher, surely not???
DonkeyApple said:
Clive Milk said:
DonkeyApple said:
Clive Milk said:
Round 3 today, looks like although some hedge funds have retreated badly beaten others think the time is right and have stepped into the battle. Have they gone in to early?
I see futures in GME went down overnight as the reddit subreddit got made private, but it is up again and the futures in GME are back near to the closing price. For a watcher this is better than next weeks superbowl
It's just like this:-
Will the attacking reddit day traders let the hedgers live ?
I'm not sure why the SEC and the Biden administration is getting involved. For years hedge funds have done insider dealing etc, such as SAC, etc and then been fined and then come back, this is all out in the open, the information is known and the day traders are simply using how the market works.
What is different here is that people are using social media to pass information quickly and do a group buy, but it has the authorities worried about stability. Rather than castigate the day traders why not change the way short selling works? After all, the authorities occasionally stop short selling, how is that not "fixing" the market a lot more than this is? It certainly is, and that is by the authorities. This is my anarchist side coming out.....
I have been watching a chap on youtube who bought the stock at $4 earlier in the year for honourable reasons, he thought they were undervalued and the management would turn the ship around. He is now living through the most intense week of his life poor sod ! He didn't post yesterday, he may have had to visit the doctors for some calming medicine Hopefully he will make a good profit and get his life back, he has put money into shares ethically and deserves a win.
The regulator has to be involved because the retail traders are acting in concert to manipulate a market for personal gain. As such they are conducting an illegal activity. I see futures in GME went down overnight as the reddit subreddit got made private, but it is up again and the futures in GME are back near to the closing price. For a watcher this is better than next weeks superbowl
It's just like this:-
Will the attacking reddit day traders let the hedgers live ?
I'm not sure why the SEC and the Biden administration is getting involved. For years hedge funds have done insider dealing etc, such as SAC, etc and then been fined and then come back, this is all out in the open, the information is known and the day traders are simply using how the market works.
What is different here is that people are using social media to pass information quickly and do a group buy, but it has the authorities worried about stability. Rather than castigate the day traders why not change the way short selling works? After all, the authorities occasionally stop short selling, how is that not "fixing" the market a lot more than this is? It certainly is, and that is by the authorities. This is my anarchist side coming out.....
I have been watching a chap on youtube who bought the stock at $4 earlier in the year for honourable reasons, he thought they were undervalued and the management would turn the ship around. He is now living through the most intense week of his life poor sod ! He didn't post yesterday, he may have had to visit the doctors for some calming medicine
Hopefully he will make a good profit and get his life back, he has put money into shares ethically and deserves a win.Edited by Clive Milk on Thursday 28th January 10:26
Where is the manipulation or rule breaking?
As I mentioned before the authorities can even stop people short selling in times of crisis, how is that not manipulating the markets?
The exchange itself has a legal remit to maintain an orderly market anyway.
Exchanges can halt short selling, regulators can and so can the stock holders by pulling their lend. It's perfectly legal. What no party can do is to collude to act in concert to achieve a personal material gain.
The problem with retail gamblers is that they treat everything like a football game and make everything a 'them and us' scenario where they are the victim and underdog from inception. The reality is that there is no such thing as 'them and us' in the markets. Once you join the market you are simply 'them'.
My points would be
1. You have a system of hedging that allows this to happen, why do the authorities not change that?
2, If you think it is manipulation how do you stop it? We can't go back to 1980 and making read page 18 of the Daily Telegraph to see what the share prices are.
Personally I am an old fashioned investor who believes putting money into companies with good ethical management and good products, but I understand that people will not be like that if the market allows them, on both sides.
DonkeyApple said:
It's not just a buying frenzy but in this event an event with a specific target which means people are acting in concert to manipulate the market for a specific purpose. That's the key.
Yes, illegal collusion.DonkeyApple said:
What no party can do is to collude to act in concert to achieve a personal material gain.
Yes, that's why it's NOT billionaires doing this - they would be easy to spot and easy to fine/jail. If I have understood the reddit situation correctly the activity is illegal but in practice it's so fragmented that it's impossible to police.DonkeyApple said:
The problem with retail gamblers is that they treat everything like a football game....
Yes, and the ease of phone trading leads to confusion between what's "virtual" and what's "real". See also, bitcoin.An interesting bit of market manipulation was done by "Bunker Hunt". Beginning in the early 1970s, Hunt and his brothers began accumulating large amounts of silver. By 1979, they had nearly cornered the global market. In the last nine months of 1979, the brothers profited by an estimated US$4 billion in silver speculation. Prices of silver futures contracts and silver bullion rose from $11 an ounce in September 1979 to $50 an ounce in January 1980. Silver prices ultimately collapsed to below $11 an ounce two months later. Hunt and his brothers were charged "with manipulating and attempting to manipulate the prices of silver futures contracts and silver bullion during 1979 and 1980" by the United States FTC. Bunker Hunt was fined $10 million and banned from trading in the commodity markets as a result of civil charges of conspiring to manipulate the silver market. - Wikipedia
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 28th January 11:41
DonkeyApple said:
It's not just a buying frenzy but in this event an event with a specific target which means people are acting in concert to manipulate the market for a specific purpose. That's the key.
Just as a note this is not correct, as it it multiple targets, all who have high short interest as percentage of float. Even small caps such as SRMX ( that well known company ) etc.Anything with over 50% seems to be a target. Which makes sense, just to how the market works.
KYNC has a 399% Short interest to float ratio !!!! Perhaps I should mention that on the biggest gamble thread!
Edited by Clive Milk on Thursday 28th January 11:44
DonkeyApple said:
ferrisbueller said:
Things have been changing. T212, and others, stopped accepting orders on GME stock citing issues with their intermediaries. Who did that and why isn't known but obviously there's an impact. Banks' retail departments protecting their other interests?
Nope. T212 is a bookmaker. Where the market is too toxic to B Book it doesn't hedge in the underlying as it doesn't have the licenses to permit that but instead sells the flow for a kickback. The third party entity that buys that flow is a dark pool not an exchange. In periods of volatility they won't put that flow into their book because there is no flow in the other side to counter it. This is what really annoys me about retail gamblers. They refuse to even learn the absolute basics of the gateways that they are using to access the markets and instead instantly rationalise issues as voodoo or evil big men colliding against them.
Could you expand on what you've said above please? Given these are share trading accounts, not CFDs, including ISAs, that appear to be unable to buy shares, shouldn't they be able to make the trade?
Clive Milk said:
I think it is more a question of stability than manipulation here.
My points would be
1. You have a system of hedging that allows this to happen, why do the authorities not change that?
2, If you think it is manipulation how do you stop it? We can't go back to 1980 and making read page 18 of the Daily Telegraph to see what the share prices are.
Personally I am an old fashioned investor who believes putting money into companies with good ethical management and good products, but I understand that people will not be like that if the market allows them, on both sides.
Re 1 what would you change?My points would be
1. You have a system of hedging that allows this to happen, why do the authorities not change that?
2, If you think it is manipulation how do you stop it? We can't go back to 1980 and making read page 18 of the Daily Telegraph to see what the share prices are.
Personally I am an old fashioned investor who believes putting money into companies with good ethical management and good products, but I understand that people will not be like that if the market allows them, on both sides.
Re 2, there are laws re manipulation. If the collusion of retail punters acting as a concert to deliberately manipulate the market becomes a relevant new phenomena then you push the issue into the executors to control and if those portals are offshore then it falls to the onshore executors that facilities their flow.
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