Crypto Currency Thread (Vol.2)
Discussion
WY86 said:
Why are they losers?
It's a pretty normal term. Winners are the ones who profit, take their money out whilst ahead. Losers are the ones that, well, lose. Get back less than they put in. In this case, with no method for generating income, any profit HAS to come from someone else. For every winner there has to be losers.The actual extra money over and above what they paid that they got when they sold came from those buying in behind them. (Where else do you think it came from?) Think of a group of people playing poker, for everyone who walks away from the table 'up', someone else has to be 'down'.
Unless there is an infinite amount of people with an infinite amount of money. Then (and only then) it could keep being sold on again and again for more and more money. Otherwise, with no income being generated, the transfer of money has to have a transferrer and a transferee. Which are you?
Incidentally, the advantage with being a 'boomer' is that you get to have seen it all before. Tech boom, Network Marketing, dot com boom, Multi Level Marketing, all full of people every bit as confident as you that they'd found a magic money tree that was going to make them rich with little effort by buying something from someone who's made a profit that they will then make themselves one day when they sell (to someone who believes that they will make a profit from the next person, etc etc).
Ari said:
It's a pretty normal term. Winners are the ones who profit, take their money out whilst ahead. Losers are the ones that, well, lose. Get back less than they put in. In this case, with no method for generating income, any profit HAS to come from someone else. For every winner there has to be losers.
The actual extra money over and above what they paid that they got when they sold came from those buying in behind them. (Where else do you think it came from?) Think of a group of people playing poker, for everyone who walks away from the table 'up', someone else has to be 'down'.
Unless there is an infinite amount of people with an infinite amount of money. Then (and only then) it could keep being sold on again and again for more and more money. Otherwise, with no income being generated, the transfer of money has to have a transferrer and a transferee. Which are you?
Incidentally, the advantage with being a 'boomer' is that you get to have seen it all before. Tech boom, Network Marketing, dot com boom, Multi Level Marketing, all full of people every bit as confident as you that they'd found a magic money tree that was going to make them rich with little effort by buying something from someone who's made a profit that they will then make themselves one day when they sell (to someone who believes that they will make a profit from the next person, etc etc).
Again i never have made a statement about a magic money tree! The actual extra money over and above what they paid that they got when they sold came from those buying in behind them. (Where else do you think it came from?) Think of a group of people playing poker, for everyone who walks away from the table 'up', someone else has to be 'down'.
Unless there is an infinite amount of people with an infinite amount of money. Then (and only then) it could keep being sold on again and again for more and more money. Otherwise, with no income being generated, the transfer of money has to have a transferrer and a transferee. Which are you?
Incidentally, the advantage with being a 'boomer' is that you get to have seen it all before. Tech boom, Network Marketing, dot com boom, Multi Level Marketing, all full of people every bit as confident as you that they'd found a magic money tree that was going to make them rich with little effort by buying something from someone who's made a profit that they will then make themselves one day when they sell (to someone who believes that they will make a profit from the next person, etc etc).
Dot com bubble… hows FB, Netflix, Amazon, Google doing?
MLMS again even though they are a pyramid scheme still very much exist so it hasn’t died off like you claim.
You do know there are companies behind crypto assets don’t you? Not some mythical place where Cryptos just appear out of the ether…
But again i repeat myself its hard to have a debate with someone who is so uniformed and so uninterested to actually come up with some good technical points on why crypto in its vast forms and abilities are no
Good?
Edited by WY86 on Wednesday 1st June 17:04
WY86 said:
Again i never have made a statement about a magic money tree!
Dot com bubble… hows FB, Netflix, Amazon, Google doing?
MLMS again even though they are a pyramid scheme still very much exist so it hasn’t died off like you claim.
You do know there are companies behind crypto assets don’t you? Not some mythical place where Cryptos just appear out of the ether…
But again i repeat myself its hard to have a debate with someone who is so uniformed and so uninterested to actually come up with some good technical points on why crypto in its vast forms and abilities are no
Good?
They do appear out the Ethereum though!Dot com bubble… hows FB, Netflix, Amazon, Google doing?
MLMS again even though they are a pyramid scheme still very much exist so it hasn’t died off like you claim.
You do know there are companies behind crypto assets don’t you? Not some mythical place where Cryptos just appear out of the ether…
But again i repeat myself its hard to have a debate with someone who is so uniformed and so uninterested to actually come up with some good technical points on why crypto in its vast forms and abilities are no
Good?
Edited by WY86 on Wednesday 1st June 17:04
WY86 said:
Again i never have made a statement about a magic money tree!
Dot com bubble… hows FB, Netflix, Amazon, Google doing?
MLMS again even though they are a pyramid scheme still very much exist so it hasn’t died off like you claim.
You do know there are companies behind crypto assets don’t you? Not some mythical place where Cryptos just appear out of the ether…
But again i repeat myself its hard to have a debate with someone who is so uniformed and so uninterested to actually come up with some good technical points on why crypto in its vast forms and abilities are no
Good?
I'm not sure if you're missing the point deliberately or just rejecting anything that goes against your beliefs that you're going to make a lot of money out of this. Dot com bubble… hows FB, Netflix, Amazon, Google doing?
MLMS again even though they are a pyramid scheme still very much exist so it hasn’t died off like you claim.
You do know there are companies behind crypto assets don’t you? Not some mythical place where Cryptos just appear out of the ether…
But again i repeat myself its hard to have a debate with someone who is so uniformed and so uninterested to actually come up with some good technical points on why crypto in its vast forms and abilities are no
Good?
Edited by WY86 on Wednesday 1st June 17:04
Yes of course tech companies etc still exist, but the massive bubble created by people buying shares just because in the past other people had made a lot of money, so they thought that they automatically would too by selling to the next level, doesn't.
And it's those last ones piling in that provided the profits for those selling up. And those were based around actual companies actually making money! Likewise MLM schemes, the boom and bust element came and went. Same with emu farms. But while it was happening, everyone who piled money in was convinced that they would be the ones making a fortune out of it.
Anyway, you keep on believing, I'm sure you're one of the smart ones who will make a fortune out of other people, rather than other people making a fortune out of you.
WY86 said:
Dot com bubble… hows FB, Netflix, Amazon, Google doing?
MLMS again even though they are a pyramid scheme still very much exist so it hasn’t died off like you claim.
Not comparable because Amazon, Google, FB are companies and make money. That is to say, even if nobody traded any shares at all their value could still go up (or down) because of the activities of the companies you are invested in. If nobody trades a crypto currency then it's price stays the same, because it doesnt generate a return. MLMS again even though they are a pyramid scheme still very much exist so it hasn’t died off like you claim.
Imagine there is a company, X. You own the only share of that company and it has £10 in it's bank account. Your share is worth £10. Now, if the company buys £10 worth of metal, adds 2 hours of labour, and sells a widget for £30, the company has £30 in it's bank account and your share is worth £30.
On the other hand, if you buy 1 Crypto Coin for £10, and you own the only Crypto Coin, that coin will always be worth £10 until someone will pay more for it to take it off you. It doesn't generate any value on it's own.
While there may be "companies behind crypto", the success of the currency (ie the coin) and the underlying company are not correlated. EG; Ripple might be a great protocol for doing smart contracts, but XRP could still fail, because people can transact using Ripple without using XRP as a medium of exchange.
It's amazing that hundreds of pages later people are still struggling with the basic difference between a currency (any currency) and a share.
Ari said:
Yes, absolutely correct. But you understand the basic message, yes? Most things have an underlying value, a house, a company, whatever. There is none with crypto, the only value is based on the hope it will be worth more tomorrow. At the point where that stops happening (as it has for every other similar scheme in the past from tulip bulbs onwards), that perceived value is gone.
You say you've made 8,000%, very well done if that's true. Presumably you've cashed out in order to have made that money (until you do that, you've made nothing yet), but it's important to understand that, for every £1 you put in and £8,000 you took out, someone else investing in crypto is £7,999 worse off (and that's ignoring the fees of running the thing).
So there will be winners (you) but there has to be losers, and there has to be more losers than winners. That's the only place your money when you cashed out can have come from.
And if you haven't cashed out, then the people who 'won' before you got their money from you and everyone else still in the scheme...
8000% of £1 is £80You say you've made 8,000%, very well done if that's true. Presumably you've cashed out in order to have made that money (until you do that, you've made nothing yet), but it's important to understand that, for every £1 you put in and £8,000 you took out, someone else investing in crypto is £7,999 worse off (and that's ignoring the fees of running the thing).
So there will be winners (you) but there has to be losers, and there has to be more losers than winners. That's the only place your money when you cashed out can have come from.
And if you haven't cashed out, then the people who 'won' before you got their money from you and everyone else still in the scheme...
Hang On said:
Ari said:
Yes, absolutely correct. But you understand the basic message, yes? Most things have an underlying value, a house, a company, whatever. There is none with crypto, the only value is based on the hope it will be worth more tomorrow. At the point where that stops happening (as it has for every other similar scheme in the past from tulip bulbs onwards), that perceived value is gone.
You say you've made 8,000%, very well done if that's true. Presumably you've cashed out in order to have made that money (until you do that, you've made nothing yet), but it's important to understand that, for every £1 you put in and £8,000 you took out, someone else investing in crypto is £7,999 worse off (and that's ignoring the fees of running the thing).
So there will be winners (you) but there has to be losers, and there has to be more losers than winners. That's the only place your money when you cashed out can have come from.
And if you haven't cashed out, then the people who 'won' before you got their money from you and everyone else still in the scheme...
8000% of £1 is £80You say you've made 8,000%, very well done if that's true. Presumably you've cashed out in order to have made that money (until you do that, you've made nothing yet), but it's important to understand that, for every £1 you put in and £8,000 you took out, someone else investing in crypto is £7,999 worse off (and that's ignoring the fees of running the thing).
So there will be winners (you) but there has to be losers, and there has to be more losers than winners. That's the only place your money when you cashed out can have come from.
And if you haven't cashed out, then the people who 'won' before you got their money from you and everyone else still in the scheme...
Hang On said:
Ari said:
Yes, absolutely correct. But you understand the basic message, yes? Most things have an underlying value, a house, a company, whatever. There is none with crypto, the only value is based on the hope it will be worth more tomorrow. At the point where that stops happening (as it has for every other similar scheme in the past from tulip bulbs onwards), that perceived value is gone.
You say you've made 8,000%, very well done if that's true. Presumably you've cashed out in order to have made that money (until you do that, you've made nothing yet), but it's important to understand that, for every £1 you put in and £8,000 you took out, someone else investing in crypto is £7,999 worse off (and that's ignoring the fees of running the thing).
So there will be winners (you) but there has to be losers, and there has to be more losers than winners. That's the only place your money when you cashed out can have come from.
And if you haven't cashed out, then the people who 'won' before you got their money from you and everyone else still in the scheme...
8000% of £1 is £80You say you've made 8,000%, very well done if that's true. Presumably you've cashed out in order to have made that money (until you do that, you've made nothing yet), but it's important to understand that, for every £1 you put in and £8,000 you took out, someone else investing in crypto is £7,999 worse off (and that's ignoring the fees of running the thing).
So there will be winners (you) but there has to be losers, and there has to be more losers than winners. That's the only place your money when you cashed out can have come from.
And if you haven't cashed out, then the people who 'won' before you got their money from you and everyone else still in the scheme...
The principle remains though, for someone to 'make' £79, someone else has to lose it, even ignoring operating costs.
Ari said:
Good point, well made!
The principle remains though, for someone to 'make' £79, someone else has to lose it, even ignoring operating costs.
But thats the same with any transaction.. i feel we are going round in circles and talking to broadly about crypto as a space which has many different solutions within. The principle remains though, for someone to 'make' £79, someone else has to lose it, even ignoring operating costs.
Ari said:
Good point, well made!
The principle remains though, for someone to 'make' £79, someone else has to lose it, even ignoring operating costs.
But thats the same with any transaction.. i feel we are going round in circles and talking to broadly about crypto as a space which has many different solutions within. The principle remains though, for someone to 'make' £79, someone else has to lose it, even ignoring operating costs.
I genuinely don't understand why this is just a thread of squabbling where people seem entirely unable to cope with the fact that, in general, people like different things and hold different opinions etc. Isn't it a bit odd that the crypto thread is basically filled with a few people who want to force everyone to hate crypto as much as they do?
If you don't like it or understand it, just don't invest in it. Surely?
I'm no expert whatsoever, but I got lucky and a three-figure investment I made with crypto a couple of years back turned into a five-figure reward. It's now parked on my drive, so definitely real.
Sterillium said:
I genuinely don't understand why this is just a thread of squabbling where people seem entirely unable to cope with the fact that, in general, people like different things and hold different opinions etc. Isn't it a bit odd that the crypto thread is basically filled with a few people who want to force everyone to hate crypto as much as they do?
If you don't like it or understand it, just don't invest in it. Surely?
I'm no expert whatsoever, but I got lucky and a three-figure investment I made with crypto a couple of years back turned into a five-figure reward. It's now parked on my drive, so definitely real.
But but you only profited because someone lost!! If you don't like it or understand it, just don't invest in it. Surely?
I'm no expert whatsoever, but I got lucky and a three-figure investment I made with crypto a couple of years back turned into a five-figure reward. It's now parked on my drive, so definitely real.
Though i agree its crazy how much they hate it, and seem to think we only invest in crypto when i assume most of us have some diversification.
Ari said:
Hang On said:
Ari said:
Yes, absolutely correct. But you understand the basic message, yes? Most things have an underlying value, a house, a company, whatever. There is none with crypto, the only value is based on the hope it will be worth more tomorrow. At the point where that stops happening (as it has for every other similar scheme in the past from tulip bulbs onwards), that perceived value is gone.
You say you've made 8,000%, very well done if that's true. Presumably you've cashed out in order to have made that money (until you do that, you've made nothing yet), but it's important to understand that, for every £1 you put in and £8,000 you took out, someone else investing in crypto is £7,999 worse off (and that's ignoring the fees of running the thing).
So there will be winners (you) but there has to be losers, and there has to be more losers than winners. That's the only place your money when you cashed out can have come from.
And if you haven't cashed out, then the people who 'won' before you got their money from you and everyone else still in the scheme...
8000% of £1 is £80You say you've made 8,000%, very well done if that's true. Presumably you've cashed out in order to have made that money (until you do that, you've made nothing yet), but it's important to understand that, for every £1 you put in and £8,000 you took out, someone else investing in crypto is £7,999 worse off (and that's ignoring the fees of running the thing).
So there will be winners (you) but there has to be losers, and there has to be more losers than winners. That's the only place your money when you cashed out can have come from.
And if you haven't cashed out, then the people who 'won' before you got their money from you and everyone else still in the scheme...
The principle remains though, for someone to 'make' £79, someone else has to lose it, even ignoring operating costs.
How else is it possible for someone to make that return on their investment and the money not have come from someone else/or group of people?
g4ry13 said:
Did I get back in a time machine and go back 2 weeks? I feel like we trounced this nonsense about investing in growth stocks which don't pay a dividend.
You didn't "trounce any nonsense", you highlighted a small number of stocks which don't pay a dividend, but the underlying basic theory of creating value still remains, even if that isn't paid back as a dividend but is reinvested. Nowhere in my post did I mention dividends. What is amazing is that despite explaining it several times the difference between shares and crypto is still an absolute mystery to some people, especially to someone who describes himself as an "expert in stocks and crypto".
Condi said:
You didn't "trounce any nonsense", you highlighted a small number of stocks which don't pay a dividend, but the underlying basic theory of creating value still remains, even if that isn't paid back as a dividend but is reinvested. Nowhere in my post did I mention dividends.
What is amazing is that despite explaining it several times the difference between shares and crypto is still an absolute mystery to some people, especially to someone who describes himself as an "expert in stocks and crypto".
Your the one who keeps trying to compare them! Why are you even in here… you already stated in another thread your too poor to buy a decent bicycle! I suggest you focus on your own finances and worry less about other people… you never know you might be able to save up a few pounds and get your Raleigh burner and look flash on your paper round!What is amazing is that despite explaining it several times the difference between shares and crypto is still an absolute mystery to some people, especially to someone who describes himself as an "expert in stocks and crypto".
WY86 said:
Your the one who keeps trying to compare them!
Erm, no..... WY86 said:
Dot com bubble… hows FB, Netflix, Amazon, Google doing?
MLMS again even though they are a pyramid scheme still very much exist so it hasn’t died off like you claim.
MLMS again even though they are a pyramid scheme still very much exist so it hasn’t died off like you claim.
WY86 said:
you already stated in another thread your too poor to buy a decent bicycle! I suggest you focus on your own finances and worry less about other people… you never know you might be able to save up a few pounds and get your Raleigh burner and look flash on your paper round!
Humour evidently lost on you! Hence the " " after my post. 
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