Crypto Currency Thread (Vol.2)
Discussion
A44RON said:
No it isn't, as I've proven in here multiple times. It's not private. You have severe cognitive dissonance with Bitcoin.
You are so clueless about this you are just parroting Monero shills. Bitcoin can be very private. A question for you. If I send bitcoin to a new address that has never been used, using my own node, how can you find who I sent it to?
dimots said:
A44RON said:
No it isn't, as I've proven in here multiple times. It's not private. You have severe cognitive dissonance with Bitcoin.
You are so clueless about this you are just parroting Monero shills. Bitcoin can be very private. A question for you. If I send bitcoin to a new address that has never been used, using my own node, how can you find who I sent it to?
To answer your question - ask that to the Canadian truckers who got their Bitcoin transfers blocked by the Canadian government. And tell that to the many people who've had their Bitcoin confiscated so easily.
Now, YOU run the Bitcoin privacy and fungibility test - transfer some Bitcoin directly from a KYC exchange like Coinbase/Binance/Kraken straight to a non-KYC exchange like TradeOgre, then exchange into another coin and back into some Bitcoin on the non-KYC exchange, then send it back to your mainstream KYC exchange account and see what happens to your account…
Monero is my smallest crypto holding fyi. I'm a Sound Money advocate, whether that's physical Gold & Silver and/or the best true private-by-default Cryptos - real Crypto and what it was supposed to be all along.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU9PM6D4CoU
https://fastercapital.com/content/Fungibility--Exp...
"But does the same apply to Bitcoin? Is every coin equal? The answer is no. While Bitcoin is decentralized, meaning that no central authority controls it, and transactions are transparent, which makes it harder to manipulate, it is not completely fungible. One Bitcoin can be worth more or less than another, depending on its history... it can become tainted. It means that the Bitcoin's value is lower than a clean Bitcoin. Some exchanges and merchants refuse to accept tainted Bitcoins, which makes them less valuable and harder to spend."
Dilmots: "Bitcoin is very private!"
also Dilmots: "Bitcoin is public!"
dimots said:
10% reserve? Not in the UK. Each 'bank deposit' is not backed to £85k, only FSCS banks. Couldn't find an up to date list but many have gone or have been eaten by larger banks.
Far safer to store your money in bitcoin than any bank.
The FSCS protection, isn't representative of how much capital Vs leverage a bank has. Its an insurance scheme, not a gearing requirement. There are multiple gearing requirements for banks, some are much lower than 10%.Far safer to store your money in bitcoin than any bank.
The I bought BTC at inception and now it's worth a Lambo so it's great store of value. It's ignored all the basic concepts of sound money. And repeatedly ignores the obviousness of de/inflation creation.
Fractional reserve banking has many risks, but also provided (observable) benefits. At somepoint leverage does need to be reigned in, but thinking BTC is the solution ignores the truckload of negatives it comes with.
As repeatedly vocalised in here, if anyone thinks you need.a 10year (or whatever horizon) to prove BTC is valid money, when most live week or month to month - has proved its not a option for the majority.
dimots said:
You haven’t answered 
You flounce every time at the mention of testing Bitcoin's (lack of) privacy and fungibility. You are an embarrassment to this thread and a charlatan wannabe anarcho-capitalist.
You claim to be pro-freedom taking the fight to central banks & governments and yet you rim a public-ledger crypto coin that’s been corrupted by Blackrock and other mainstream institutions. At least be honest on here and either confess 1). you don’t know what you’re talking about. or 2). that you just buy Bitcoin because you just want numbers to go up.
I’ve never came across anyone in a thread before that spouts as much hypocrisy as you. I’m sure you will reply with “Bitcoin is private!” again shortly…
OoopsVoss said:
The FSCS protection, isn't representative of how much capital Vs leverage a bank has. Its an insurance scheme, not a gearing requirement. There are multiple gearing requirements for banks, some are much lower than 10%.
The I bought BTC at inception and now it's worth a Lambo so it's great store of value. It's ignored all the basic concepts of sound money. And repeatedly ignores the obviousness of de/inflation creation.
Fractional reserve banking has many risks, but also provided (observable) benefits. At somepoint leverage does need to be reigned in, but thinking BTC is the solution ignores the truckload of negatives it comes with.
As repeatedly vocalised in here, if anyone thinks you need.a 10year (or whatever horizon) to prove BTC is valid money, when most live week or month to month - has proved its not a option for the majority.
Two separate claims. Condi claimed banks hold 10% but that’s not the case, it’s literally ALL illusory money!The I bought BTC at inception and now it's worth a Lambo so it's great store of value. It's ignored all the basic concepts of sound money. And repeatedly ignores the obviousness of de/inflation creation.
Fractional reserve banking has many risks, but also provided (observable) benefits. At somepoint leverage does need to be reigned in, but thinking BTC is the solution ignores the truckload of negatives it comes with.
As repeatedly vocalised in here, if anyone thinks you need.a 10year (or whatever horizon) to prove BTC is valid money, when most live week or month to month - has proved its not a option for the majority.
A44RON said:
You flounce every time at the mention of testing Bitcoin's (lack of) privacy and fungibility.
You are an embarrassment to this thread and a charlatan wannabe anarcho-capitalist.
You claim to be pro-freedom taking the fight to central banks & governments and yet you rim a public-ledger crypto coin that’s been corrupted by Blackrock and other mainstream institutions. At least be honest on here and either confess 1). you don’t know what you’re talking about. or 2). that you just buy Bitcoin because you just want numbers to go up.
I’ve never came across anyone in a thread before that spouts as much hypocrisy as you. I’m sure you will reply with “Bitcoin is private!” again shortly…
Bitcoin has all the hashpower, and most of the value in the cryptocurrency ecosystem. You seem completely oblivious to the fact that bitcoin is drawing value from the legacy financial system into the crypto ecosystem and is therefore doings God's work for all crypto. If you think this would have happened with Monero you are delusional. You are an embarrassment to this thread and a charlatan wannabe anarcho-capitalist.
You claim to be pro-freedom taking the fight to central banks & governments and yet you rim a public-ledger crypto coin that’s been corrupted by Blackrock and other mainstream institutions. At least be honest on here and either confess 1). you don’t know what you’re talking about. or 2). that you just buy Bitcoin because you just want numbers to go up.
I’ve never came across anyone in a thread before that spouts as much hypocrisy as you. I’m sure you will reply with “Bitcoin is private!” again shortly…
With technologies like wrapped coins, coinjoin, smart contracts, atomic swaps, you will soon see that value locked on the bitcoin blockchain being available across the entire crypto ecosystem through permissionless decentralised exchanges. Monero shills might cry 'I'm not swapping my clean $1 monero for dirty $trillion BTC' but really there's going to be no issue and economics will determine the market.
On another point, of course I can swap my btc to Monero any time I like. I don't because the KYC element is useful to me at this time. I am not a bitcoin maxi because I want to make more money, I am a bitcoin maxi because it is patently obvious that bitcoin is going to become the world's resver asset and in that capacity it is a good thing for it to have some level of transparency.
dimots said:
Bitcoin has all the hashpower, and most of the value in the cryptocurrency ecosystem. You seem completely oblivious to the fact that bitcoin is drawing value from the legacy financial system into the crypto ecosystem and is therefore doings God's work for all crypto. If you think this would have happened with Monero you are delusional.
dimots said:
Condi claimed banks hold 10% but that’s not the case, it’s literally ALL illusory money!
If Bitcoin is pulling money from the legacy financial system, but all that money is illusionary where does Bitcoins value come from?I don't disagree with your fiat/monetary system issues, and the "get the hell out of dodge" sentiment, I just perceive there to be a similar illusionary element to crypto's, because they were ultimately created like the fiat systems debt/currency creation? But that just highlights the difference in what people see as valuable?
For me what is really valuable on a practical level to all of us, it's power, food and Materials in essence. All are hard to store in meaningful quantities, if you worked out your likely future consumption of everything lots of people could theoretically buy enough now for the rest of their lives, but you can't realistically.
So it always used to be physical things essentially Gold, rare dense and doesn't degrade, the fiat creators still have it, price has gone up so more is being bought when in many ways it is like the "pet rock" or "Barbarous relic" however some is needed for things we actually use.
All the iphones every made consumed approx 72 tonnes of Gold and 720 tonnes of Silver.
So you can buy something the fiat power holders also have (why do they bother!?) which gives some inherent protection from what they might do, that has real world uses today beyond those of when it was historically considered money and so has a certain constant demand, and can't be created like fiat and can't be created by a code on a fixed 10 min timeline like Bitcoin.
Saying this is has to be the least popular thing to do on here and in the wider public sphere? and yet the price has surpassed nominal highs on this negative or certainly lack of positive sentiment.
We all talk our own book, our own perception/convictions, and ultimately it's a numbers game as whatever people call money/valuable comes down to that inner/or imposed acceptance of it by the masses.
Good luck to us all!
dimots said:
Two separate claims. Condi claimed banks hold 10% but that’s not the case, it’s literally ALL illusory money!
I know, I'm answering to multiple points made by separate posters.There are multiple gearing ratios, that make up capital base. Supplemental Leverage Ratio, has a lower floor than 10% - I can't think of a bank above 10% - which actually determine how big a banks balance sheet can be relative to its capital base. Claiming that's "illusory" is not true at all - there are multiple types of Capital and Tier 1 is basically money or assets immediately cash convertible with ultra deep liquidity pools (Govt debt).
You are not getting rid of the government debt, ever. Bar something like a zombie apocalypse, not sure what good BTC is then when your brains are food for the horde.
I mean I get why people don't like QE, leverage extension / maturity transformation and sound money - but BTC can't solve for the economies needs.
Here's a really simple example. I might phone up Condi after a long day of picking peanuts out of poo and say:
Me "Fancy coming for a pint?"
Condi - "been an expensive month, probably just the 1. Let me go check the satoshis and hashrate".
Me: "coming or not?"
Condi "yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no" (get an answer 3 days later when the longer term curve irons out the short end vol).
Ok it's not illusory money, that's hyperbole. But it's not money in the bank either, it's a complex mess of debt, loans, regulation, debasement, government, war, fraud and profit.
I'm much more optimistic about the resolution of the debt spiral...there's no way it can continue indefinitely. Imagine a future 500 or 1000 years from now...is the debt still mounting? I think hyperbitcoinization is a near certainty. Couldn't tell you when, but eventually.
Anyway...halving day!
I'm much more optimistic about the resolution of the debt spiral...there's no way it can continue indefinitely. Imagine a future 500 or 1000 years from now...is the debt still mounting? I think hyperbitcoinization is a near certainty. Couldn't tell you when, but eventually.
Anyway...halving day!
dimots said:
Ok it's not illusory money, that's hyperbole. But it's not money in the bank either, it's a complex mess of debt, loans, regulation, debasement, government, war, fraud and profit.
Yes, but how does Bitcoin solve any of that? You can already borrow bitcoin (debt/loans), btc is becoming more controlled (regulation), there will always be central banks and taxes (government), there will always be fighting (war), bitcoin is already famous for it's scams (fraud), and businesses are still going to be allowed to make money (profit)!!
The only one it comes close to solving is debasement, which you could very easily argue is not very helpful as with the money supply capped at 21m then (assuming everyone uses it), it will always go up in value and why would anyone spend something which is almost certain to go up in value? The whole reason that inflation is targeted at 2% is so that things are more expensive in the future than they are now, and it encourages people to spend. Deflation, when people think things are going to be cheaper later, is not economically desirable.
dimots said:
Ok it's not illusory money, that's hyperbole. But it's not money in the bank either, it's a complex mess of debt, loans, regulation, debasement, government, war, fraud and profit.
I'm much more optimistic about the resolution of the debt spiral...there's no way it can continue indefinitely. Imagine a future 500 or 1000 years from now...is the debt still mounting? I think hyperbitcoinization is a near certainty. Couldn't tell you when, but eventually.
Anyway...halving day!
Happy "Halving Day"!I'm much more optimistic about the resolution of the debt spiral...there's no way it can continue indefinitely. Imagine a future 500 or 1000 years from now...is the debt still mounting? I think hyperbitcoinization is a near certainty. Couldn't tell you when, but eventually.
Anyway...halving day!
Condi said:
Yes, but how does Bitcoin solve any of that?
You can already borrow bitcoin (debt/loans), btc is becoming more controlled (regulation), there will always be central banks and taxes (government), there will always be fighting (war), bitcoin is already famous for it's scams (fraud), and businesses are still going to be allowed to make money (profit)!!
The only one it comes close to solving is debasement, which you could very easily argue is not very helpful as with the money supply capped at 21m then (assuming everyone uses it), it will always go up in value and why would anyone spend something which is almost certain to go up in value? The whole reason that inflation is targeted at 2% is so that things are more expensive in the future than they are now, and it encourages people to spend. Deflation, when people think things are going to be cheaper later, is not economically desirable.
Do some reading about triple entry accounting. Then imagine that the world's most powerful decentralized non-state affiliated computer network is triple entry accounting on a public ledger for everyone.You can already borrow bitcoin (debt/loans), btc is becoming more controlled (regulation), there will always be central banks and taxes (government), there will always be fighting (war), bitcoin is already famous for it's scams (fraud), and businesses are still going to be allowed to make money (profit)!!
The only one it comes close to solving is debasement, which you could very easily argue is not very helpful as with the money supply capped at 21m then (assuming everyone uses it), it will always go up in value and why would anyone spend something which is almost certain to go up in value? The whole reason that inflation is targeted at 2% is so that things are more expensive in the future than they are now, and it encourages people to spend. Deflation, when people think things are going to be cheaper later, is not economically desirable.
dimots said:
Do some reading about triple entry accounting. Then imagine that the world's most powerful decentralized non-state affiliated computer network is triple entry accounting on a public ledger for everyone.
You've not answer the question. Triple entry accounting is precisely that - accounting; simply a record of what happens. So, as per the original question, how does Bitcoin do anything about the complex mess of debt, loans, regulation, debasement, government, war, fraud and profit? Yes, it may record that complex mess better, but it's not as if we don't understand where the money is today. We know it is debt, loans, fraud, taxes and spent on wars, it's all there, recorded.
Condi said:
You've not answer the question. Triple entry accounting is precisely that - accounting; simply a record of what happens.
So, as per the original question, how does Bitcoin do anything about the complex mess of debt, loans, regulation, debasement, government, war, fraud and profit? Yes, it may record that complex mess better, but it's not as if we don't understand where the money is today. We know it is debt, loans, fraud, taxes and spent on wars, it's all there, recorded.
No it isn’t. So, as per the original question, how does Bitcoin do anything about the complex mess of debt, loans, regulation, debasement, government, war, fraud and profit? Yes, it may record that complex mess better, but it's not as if we don't understand where the money is today. We know it is debt, loans, fraud, taxes and spent on wars, it's all there, recorded.
dimots said:
No it isn’t.
You're going to have to explain more. Debt, loans, profit, etc are not "problems" to be solved. They're required parts of a capitalist economy and are essential to the way our world functions.
Government/taxes are an essential part of living with other people in a society and exist for the greater good, unless you don't believe in funding a fire service until your house burns down.
Fraud is arguably not great, but is a human problem that Bitcoin will not solve.
War is equally not great, but is also a human problem, that Bitcoin will not solve.
So please, do explain. You've got very slopey shoulders when it comes to backing up your claims, otherwise it just looks like another solution looking for a problem.
This explanation of triple entry accounting backs up my assertion that it is simply a (better?) record of existing transactions and thus does nothing about anything you mentioned above. Come on Dimots - up your game, you're just posting nonsense now.
https://www.eduyush.com/en-us/blogs/digital-skills...
dimots said:
A44RON said:
You flounce every time at the mention of testing Bitcoin's (lack of) privacy and fungibility.
You are an embarrassment to this thread and a charlatan wannabe anarcho-capitalist.
You claim to be pro-freedom taking the fight to central banks & governments and yet you rim a public-ledger crypto coin that’s been corrupted by Blackrock and other mainstream institutions. At least be honest on here and either confess 1). you don’t know what you’re talking about. or 2). that you just buy Bitcoin because you just want numbers to go up.
I’ve never came across anyone in a thread before that spouts as much hypocrisy as you. I’m sure you will reply with “Bitcoin is private!” again shortly…
Bitcoin has all the hashpower, and most of the value in the cryptocurrency ecosystem. You seem completely oblivious to the fact that bitcoin is drawing value from the legacy financial system into the crypto ecosystem and is therefore doings God's work for all crypto. If you think this would have happened with Monero you are delusional. You are an embarrassment to this thread and a charlatan wannabe anarcho-capitalist.
You claim to be pro-freedom taking the fight to central banks & governments and yet you rim a public-ledger crypto coin that’s been corrupted by Blackrock and other mainstream institutions. At least be honest on here and either confess 1). you don’t know what you’re talking about. or 2). that you just buy Bitcoin because you just want numbers to go up.
I’ve never came across anyone in a thread before that spouts as much hypocrisy as you. I’m sure you will reply with “Bitcoin is private!” again shortly…
With technologies like wrapped coins, coinjoin, smart contracts, atomic swaps, you will soon see that value locked on the bitcoin blockchain being available across the entire crypto ecosystem through permissionless decentralised exchanges. Monero shills might cry 'I'm not swapping my clean $1 monero for dirty $trillion BTC' but really there's going to be no issue and economics will determine the market.
On another point, of course I can swap my btc to Monero any time I like. I don't because the KYC element is useful to me at this time. I am not a bitcoin maxi because I want to make more money, I am a bitcoin maxi because it is patently obvious that bitcoin is going to become the world's resver asset and in that capacity it is a good thing for it to have some level of transparency.
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