When/Will house prices cool down?
Discussion
brickwall said:
On the whole WFH thing I’m quite pragmatic with my team.
I people to come in to the office as much as they need to get the work done. For some - that means quite a lot, because there are some tricky relationships to manage and they need that face-to-face time.
For others, it can mean barely at all - I have one person based in NYC but working a lot with people in both London and Singapore. They’re often on calls at 6/7am and 11pm NYC time - it makes no sense for them to commute into the office to do those.
Equally - for those jobs where we don’t need people to be in every day, it’s allowed me to recruit some GREAT people. The best person on my team has a disabled child - there’s no way I would have got her if I demanded she come into the office every day.
It opens the door to huge opportunity. Arguably the issue is that we are in a transition phase where many who can't function efficiently outside of an office and constant oversight by Mother are in the mix but you'd expect that over the next few years it will begin to sort itself out and find the efficiencies. It also requires a different set of management skills which not all existing managers have and that is also something which will work out over time. I people to come in to the office as much as they need to get the work done. For some - that means quite a lot, because there are some tricky relationships to manage and they need that face-to-face time.
For others, it can mean barely at all - I have one person based in NYC but working a lot with people in both London and Singapore. They’re often on calls at 6/7am and 11pm NYC time - it makes no sense for them to commute into the office to do those.
Equally - for those jobs where we don’t need people to be in every day, it’s allowed me to recruit some GREAT people. The best person on my team has a disabled child - there’s no way I would have got her if I demanded she come into the office every day.
[quote=DonkeyAppleIt also requires a different set of management skills which not all existing managers have
[/quote]
That is what I see as a key short/medium-term challenge - existing managers are predominantly Gen-X / Millennials (plus a few Boomers still around), who've risen through the ranks in almost entirely office-only environments. Tracking performance (not just task delivery) in a hybrid (or worse, fully-remote) environment is definitely outside of the comfort zone.
[/quote]
That is what I see as a key short/medium-term challenge - existing managers are predominantly Gen-X / Millennials (plus a few Boomers still around), who've risen through the ranks in almost entirely office-only environments. Tracking performance (not just task delivery) in a hybrid (or worse, fully-remote) environment is definitely outside of the comfort zone.
DonkeyApple said:
brickwall said:
On the whole WFH thing I’m quite pragmatic with my team.
I people to come in to the office as much as they need to get the work done. For some - that means quite a lot, because there are some tricky relationships to manage and they need that face-to-face time.
For others, it can mean barely at all - I have one person based in NYC but working a lot with people in both London and Singapore. They’re often on calls at 6/7am and 11pm NYC time - it makes no sense for them to commute into the office to do those.
Equally - for those jobs where we don’t need people to be in every day, it’s allowed me to recruit some GREAT people. The best person on my team has a disabled child - there’s no way I would have got her if I demanded she come into the office every day.
It opens the door to huge opportunity. Arguably the issue is that we are in a transition phase where many who can't function efficiently outside of an office and constant oversight by Mother are in the mix but you'd expect that over the next few years it will begin to sort itself out and find the efficiencies. It also requires a different set of management skills which not all existing managers have and that is also something which will work out over time. I people to come in to the office as much as they need to get the work done. For some - that means quite a lot, because there are some tricky relationships to manage and they need that face-to-face time.
For others, it can mean barely at all - I have one person based in NYC but working a lot with people in both London and Singapore. They’re often on calls at 6/7am and 11pm NYC time - it makes no sense for them to commute into the office to do those.
Equally - for those jobs where we don’t need people to be in every day, it’s allowed me to recruit some GREAT people. The best person on my team has a disabled child - there’s no way I would have got her if I demanded she come into the office every day.
Arguably a large part of the issue is that many (especially younger staff) simply do not have appropriate facilities to work from home. It always amazes me that the occupational health teams, recently so insistent on workplace assessment and desks/workstations with all the bells and whistles, are suddenly quite happy with the idea that staff can work on laptops (often without separate keyboards/monitors) at their (non height-adjustable) kitchen tables whilst sat on (non adjustable chairs)... of course, saying you can only WFH if you have a dedicated and appropriate home office isn't something that would resonate with the majority. Which, in part, I suspect is why many firms are saying "back to the office please".
That isn't to say that some employees can't/don't work well remotely, but even several years after covid, I'm yet to be convinced that it works for the majority of office jobs.
LooneyTunes said:
I don't think it's just oversight or even actual/perceived productivity.
Arguably a large part of the issue is that many (especially younger staff) simply do not have appropriate facilities to work from home. It always amazes me that the occupational health teams, recently so insistent on workplace assessment and desks/workstations with all the bells and whistles, are suddenly quite happy with the idea that staff can work on laptops (often without separate keyboards/monitors) at their (non height-adjustable) kitchen tables whilst sat on (non adjustable chairs)... of course, saying you can only WFH if you have a dedicated and appropriate home office isn't something that would resonate with the majority. Which, in part, I suspect is why many firms are saying "back to the office please".
That isn't to say that some employees can't/don't work well remotely, but even several years after covid, I'm yet to be convinced that it works for the majority of office jobs.
Arguably a large part of the issue is that many (especially younger staff) simply do not have appropriate facilities to work from home. It always amazes me that the occupational health teams, recently so insistent on workplace assessment and desks/workstations with all the bells and whistles, are suddenly quite happy with the idea that staff can work on laptops (often without separate keyboards/monitors) at their (non height-adjustable) kitchen tables whilst sat on (non adjustable chairs)... of course, saying you can only WFH if you have a dedicated and appropriate home office isn't something that would resonate with the majority. Which, in part, I suspect is why many firms are saying "back to the office please".
That isn't to say that some employees can't/don't work well remotely, but even several years after covid, I'm yet to be convinced that it works for the majority of office jobs.
I've got a slice of tree positioning my monitor (circa 2002) at the right height.
LooneyTunes said:
Lots of people just don't have the space to be able to set anything up.
So they should come into the office. Their call. I think especially for younger staff they may need to come into the office more - because their job may require a steeper learning/development curve, or because they won’t have suitable facilities at home.
And those managing them may need to come in, to provide that training and development.
But my entire view is output-based: you do what you need to do to get the job done; you don’t set mandates for coming to an office, you set mandates for what needs to get done. That may or may not require coming in, equally it may or may not require travelling to Timbuktu.
okgo said:
Sheepshanks said:
One of my daughters is a teacher and she said newly qualified teachers are leaving because they can’t work from home!
I think we’re probably best off without people with that sort of brain power teaching others, tbh!Mind you, mature entrants can be a problem- some of them genuinely think it’ll be a 9 to 3.30 working day.
Edited by Sheepshanks on Sunday 14th April 20:38
LooneyTunes said:
I don't think it's just oversight or even actual/perceived productivity.
Arguably a large part of the issue is that many (especially younger staff) simply do not have appropriate facilities to work from home. It always amazes me that the occupational health teams, recently so insistent on workplace assessment and desks/workstations with all the bells and whistles, are suddenly quite happy with the idea that staff can work on laptops (often without separate keyboards/monitors) at their (non height-adjustable) kitchen tables whilst sat on (non adjustable chairs)... of course, saying you can only WFH if you have a dedicated and appropriate home office isn't something that would resonate with the majority. Which, in part, I suspect is why many firms are saying "back to the office please".
That isn't to say that some employees can't/don't work well remotely, but even several years after covid, I'm yet to be convinced that it works for the majority of office jobs.
I'm not sure Occupational health were happy, the bosses might well have been as they could bin off office space.Arguably a large part of the issue is that many (especially younger staff) simply do not have appropriate facilities to work from home. It always amazes me that the occupational health teams, recently so insistent on workplace assessment and desks/workstations with all the bells and whistles, are suddenly quite happy with the idea that staff can work on laptops (often without separate keyboards/monitors) at their (non height-adjustable) kitchen tables whilst sat on (non adjustable chairs)... of course, saying you can only WFH if you have a dedicated and appropriate home office isn't something that would resonate with the majority. Which, in part, I suspect is why many firms are saying "back to the office please".
That isn't to say that some employees can't/don't work well remotely, but even several years after covid, I'm yet to be convinced that it works for the majority of office jobs.
Sheepshanks said:
I said something like that. Apparently it’s not that they weren’t aware, it’s that they’re envious of their friends who can meet for much, go the gym etc.
Mind you, mature entrants can be a problem- some of the genuinely think it’ll be a 9 to 3.30 working day.
I'm in the wrong bloody job...WFH 3 days a week and still doing c.8am to god-knows-when pm! Mind you, mature entrants can be a problem- some of the genuinely think it’ll be a 9 to 3.30 working day.
havoc said:
I'm in the wrong bloody job...WFH 3 days a week and still doing c.8am to god-knows-when pm!
She’s been at a few schools and normally they want staff on site by 8AM. With traffic she needs to be on her way not long after 7. Where she is now they have a long school day as most kids are bussed in so they do activity stuff during extended lunchtimes. I don’t think a leaving time is enforced but she’s usually there until 6.Sounds like my mate and his wife...both secondary school teachers and have 3 kids, so both work late into the evenings to get the job done.
Objectively, careers like teacher and nurse have been so neglected for so long, and have salaries which have failed to keep pace for so long, that you've got to be passionate to even consider it anymore. Which feels like a big fat risk to society...
...but hey, let's create some more non-value-add middle-man jobs with big fat commissions to entice all those who've failed at school into!
Objectively, careers like teacher and nurse have been so neglected for so long, and have salaries which have failed to keep pace for so long, that you've got to be passionate to even consider it anymore. Which feels like a big fat risk to society...
...but hey, let's create some more non-value-add middle-man jobs with big fat commissions to entice all those who've failed at school into!
I just stumbled across these evening newspaper billboards that I nicked from the newspaper vendor at Victoria Station back in 2004.
It's a mark of how house prices continue to Intrigue the nation across the Decades.
The only reason I obtained the first one about the housing market slump was to annoy a colleague in the office. He had been talking about buying a house in London for years but prices kept escalating even though the media kept proclaiming that the bubble must surely burst so he kept waiting for the decline in prices. In the end he could wait no longer and finally committed to buying a house and he literally completed on his deal and went out to celebrate over lunch with the team. I spotted the newspaper headline about prices dropping and stole the newspaper billboard so I could leave it on his desk to take the wind out of his sales on his return from lunch.
Literally 3 days later the evening paper was crowing about prices rising again so I grabbed the second billboard and thought they would make a great pair.
Two decades later the story is pretty much the same it's just that the prices are much higher.
It's a mark of how house prices continue to Intrigue the nation across the Decades.
The only reason I obtained the first one about the housing market slump was to annoy a colleague in the office. He had been talking about buying a house in London for years but prices kept escalating even though the media kept proclaiming that the bubble must surely burst so he kept waiting for the decline in prices. In the end he could wait no longer and finally committed to buying a house and he literally completed on his deal and went out to celebrate over lunch with the team. I spotted the newspaper headline about prices dropping and stole the newspaper billboard so I could leave it on his desk to take the wind out of his sales on his return from lunch.
Literally 3 days later the evening paper was crowing about prices rising again so I grabbed the second billboard and thought they would make a great pair.
Two decades later the story is pretty much the same it's just that the prices are much higher.
Edited by A993LAD on Sunday 14th April 21:07
Sheepshanks said:
She’s been at a few schools and normally they want staff on site by 8AM. With traffic she needs to be on her way not long after 7. Where she is now they have a long school day as most kids are bussed in so they do activity stuff during extended lunchtimes. I don’t think a leaving time is enforced but she’s usually there until 6.
I understand early starts surely, but teachers should be able to leave once the school finishes with students (15.30?). Extended lunchtime or other activities should be based on voluntary (+paid). It's an extremely difficult profession especially once you have a family and kids, and horrible pay. When you are young, its great and can keep up with the energy levels but later in life becomes totally not sustainable. People laugh and make fun but it is officially the highest stress generator profession in U.K.ooid said:
Sheepshanks said:
She’s been at a few schools and normally they want staff on site by 8AM. With traffic she needs to be on her way not long after 7. Where she is now they have a long school day as most kids are bussed in so they do activity stuff during extended lunchtimes. I don’t think a leaving time is enforced but she’s usually there until 6.
I understand early starts surely, but teachers should be able to leave once the school finishes with students (15.30?). Extended lunchtime or other activities should be based on voluntary (+paid). It's an extremely difficult profession especially once you have a family and kids, and horrible pay. When you are young, its great and can keep up with the energy levels but later in life becomes totally not sustainable. People laugh and make fun but it is officially the highest stress generator profession in U.K.As my Daughter in law said to my son before he packed in teaching and went and joined PWC as a trainee auditor:
You aren't mentally ill, it's the work, the people you work with, and the kids that are wrong for you, don't take anti depressants. Get out whilst you can.
5 years on: He's now a senior financial analyst in a moderately sized automotive car parts distributor and earns twice what he would earn as a teacher, working for people who like him, 2 days a week in the office. 3 days at home, stress at a moderate level which motivates rather than sends you suicidal.
Sheepshanks said:
okgo said:
Sheepshanks said:
One of my daughters is a teacher and she said newly qualified teachers are leaving because they can’t work from home!
I think we’re probably best off without people with that sort of brain power teaching others, tbh!Mind you, mature entrants can be a problem- some of them genuinely think it’ll be a 9 to 3.30 working day.
Edited by Sheepshanks on Sunday 14th April 20:38
asfault said:
Meet for lunch , go to the gym. This further solidifies my belief that alot (NOT ALL) of the work from home crowd are skiving and infact have caused the demand for more workers as they are doing alot less but very difficult to prove it.
Or, they were doing the same when commuting in but no longer have to be at the desk while not working. The key is that if you're paying someone £50k to do a job and they're actually doing that job well enough but spending time shooting pool as well then you don't have a problem with that individual. The problem is the employee who is struggling to deliver on their promise to do x amount of work for y amount of money who then thinks they can also go and play pool just because someone better than them can make that time. Both doing the same job and same hours along with the same recreation but one employee is doing a good job, the other is a fraudster. The issue is that you can't just tell the second one that they're a waste of space and to FRO like you used to, instead you need a team of people to help fabricate an elaborate back story that might enable you to move them on at some point over the next year or two.
It's pretty costly and time consuming to merge teams and roles, ask everyone to reapply etc etc, just to get rid of someone HR should have been shrewd enough to not let in the door. It was much more efficient when you just went up to that person and told them the truth that it's not us, it's you.
asfault said:
Sheepshanks said:
okgo said:
Sheepshanks said:
One of my daughters is a teacher and she said newly qualified teachers are leaving because they can’t work from home!
I think we’re probably best off without people with that sort of brain power teaching others, tbh!Mind you, mature entrants can be a problem- some of them genuinely think it’ll be a 9 to 3.30 working day.
Edited by Sheepshanks on Sunday 14th April 20:38
I remember one of my team joined having predominantly worked in the Far East - he was asking me permission to step away from his desk for an hour in the afternoon to pick his daughter up from school.
I had to explain to him that I hired him to run a multi-million pound project. Generously, of course go pick up the daughter, he doesn’t need to ask me - I couldn’t care less what hours he works.
Less generously, given the responsibility I’m handing him for a complex project, I expect him to be capable of managing his own time and doing whatever / being wherever he needs to make the project a success.
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