Is anyone moving now?
Discussion
Evanivitch said:
Mr Whippy said:
WFH isn’t a panacea for balanced lifestyles. It’s the thin end of the wedge of offshoring office jobs.
If jobs can move 4-6hrs North of London and be entirely WFH, then they can be anywhere.
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There are plenty of jobs that for security and legislative reasons can't be off-shored. The idea that just because you can WFH means someone the other side of the world can do your job is incredibly naïve. Including the fact ignores the many jobs that may involve visiting others on occasion (customers, suppliers) but have zero justification for actually working on site with your employer.If jobs can move 4-6hrs North of London and be entirely WFH, then they can be anywhere.
.
That does suppose the "site" they will visit is still there of course.
However, to continue the example of "Bob" (Or "Ted" - to avoid LeadFarmer becoming more undecided). If "Bob" is now living five hours away from the sites he needs to visit, how often will he be prepared to trek in? If he is still technically office-based then when he claims expenses, by the usual triangular rule he will get essentially diddly squat (HMRC only allow a claim from office to customer; if your usual commute is 30 miles, your office is 20 miles from the customer and 45 miles for you, you can only claim 15 miles mileage). Companies which are clustered geographically (e.g. Finance in London, Pharma in Maidenhead) with suppliers and clients in close proximity will therefore likely be paying "Bob" £4.50 mileage for his 350 mile round trip since their offices will be a few tens of miles apart.
That's just one way a company which is irritated by someone having moved 100s of miles away can make them uncomfortable. "Yeah, sorry Bob, just bad luck that you have bookings near the office on Monday, Wednesday and Friday for the next few weeks - you know, have to fit in with the customer and all that". They could then offer him a home-based contract (which would entitle him to expenses) but on a reduced salary.
It is all going to play out in many different ways. Different companies will take different approaches. Even within the same company I can see different people being treated differently, even if it's not official.
As you say, this is getting tangential, however, I do think it will drive the market. People make decisions in haste and repent at leisure. With kids settled in schools, I can see lots of very difficult decisions to come. We may see a lot more studio flats being rented/purchased - the return of the "pied a terre" perhaps. Will that drive some people to sell their big 5-bed detached in the country for a 4-bed in the country and studio in the city? What will that do to the market?
How many people, with an expectation that they will need to be in a London office from time to time, are buying and moving hundreds of miles away? I’d bet very few, and those that do may be setting themselves up for retirement.
In my mind, the main driver is people being willing to accept a 30 to 60 minute longer commute once or twice a week in exchange for a nicer house outside the city. Let’s say 1.5-2 hours on the train from the London. That’s probably fine for the hybrid working that seems to be the common end point in all this.
I’ll be amazed if anyone’s moved to Yorkshire. They may have moved to the midlands, out towards Bath, down to the south coast, etc. depending on family connections and other factors. Hell, my manager currently commutes from Leicester, and that’s when we were expected to be in the office in London!
In my mind, the main driver is people being willing to accept a 30 to 60 minute longer commute once or twice a week in exchange for a nicer house outside the city. Let’s say 1.5-2 hours on the train from the London. That’s probably fine for the hybrid working that seems to be the common end point in all this.
I’ll be amazed if anyone’s moved to Yorkshire. They may have moved to the midlands, out towards Bath, down to the south coast, etc. depending on family connections and other factors. Hell, my manager currently commutes from Leicester, and that’s when we were expected to be in the office in London!
Of course there are then millions of people in the UK who have nothing to do with and work nowhere near London! Those people are quietly and somewhat smugly watching all this talk of "the city" and WFH and how presenteeism is still alive and well etc all the while working for employers who haven't entirely disappeared up their a
holes, have already agreed to a pretty straight forward hybrid system of working because they communicated all the way through covid.
Nice to see all the WFH bullst is spreading out to other threads!
holes, have already agreed to a pretty straight forward hybrid system of working because they communicated all the way through covid.Nice to see all the WFH bulls
t is spreading out to other threads!
Well the house i put an offer in on has now sold , the agent did not even bother to tell me though i had to see it on right move. Last i heard from them was my offer was the highest but they wanted more.
These agents really are arrogant and right now they can afford to be, i hope it doesn't last for them and me!
These agents really are arrogant and right now they can afford to be, i hope it doesn't last for them and me!
DanL said:
How many people, with an expectation that they will need to be in a London office from time to time, are buying and moving hundreds of miles away? I’d bet very few, and those that do may be setting themselves up for retirement.
In my mind, the main driver is people being willing to accept a 30 to 60 minute longer commute once or twice a week in exchange for a nicer house outside the city. Let’s say 1.5-2 hours on the train from the London. That’s probably fine for the hybrid working that seems to be the common end point in all this.
I’ll be amazed if anyone’s moved to Yorkshire. They may have moved to the midlands, out towards Bath, down to the south coast, etc. depending on family connections and other factors. Hell, my manager currently commutes from Leicester, and that’s when we were expected to be in the office in London!
that's exactly what i have been doing for years. I'd far rather visit london every so often than live there. People that live in London don't get that idea at all, but more do now than did before i guess is the change.In my mind, the main driver is people being willing to accept a 30 to 60 minute longer commute once or twice a week in exchange for a nicer house outside the city. Let’s say 1.5-2 hours on the train from the London. That’s probably fine for the hybrid working that seems to be the common end point in all this.
I’ll be amazed if anyone’s moved to Yorkshire. They may have moved to the midlands, out towards Bath, down to the south coast, etc. depending on family connections and other factors. Hell, my manager currently commutes from Leicester, and that’s when we were expected to be in the office in London!
geeks said:
Of course there are then millions of people in the UK who have nothing to do with and work nowhere near London! Those people are quietly and somewhat smugly watching all this talk of "the city" and WFH and how presenteeism is still alive and well etc all the while working for employers who haven't entirely disappeared up their aholes, have already agreed to a pretty straight forward hybrid system of working because they communicated all the way through covid.
Nice to see all the WFH bullst is spreading out to other threads!
holes, have already agreed to a pretty straight forward hybrid system of working because they communicated all the way through covid.Nice to see all the WFH bulls
t is spreading out to other threads!C70R said:
So, this thread seems to have become mostly conjecture about what the future holds for WFH vs Offices.
Can we get back on track at some point? Maybe?
It's directly relevant though as the Londoners moving out to the country have driven prices up at the extraordinary rate we have seen. So the people living and working nowhere near London are being affected - they just don't know it yet, unless they are trying to move and being outbid by people for whom an extra £50K on the asking price is nothing (compared with the local where £50K is a years' salary).Can we get back on track at some point? Maybe?
If there was a mass reversal of the exodus, we'll see a collapse in prices as rapid as the inflation (okay, maybe not quite as rapid as the market doesn't work like that).
I know of two people who have upped sticks and moved away from London. One is now looking at moving back. So there's some relevance ...
Flooble said:
It's directly relevant though as the Londoners moving out to the country have driven prices up at the extraordinary rate we have seen. So the people living and working nowhere near London are being affected - they just don't know it yet, unless they are trying to move and being outbid by people for whom an extra £50K on the asking price is nothing (compared with the local where £50K is a years' salary).
If there was a mass reversal of the exodus, we'll see a collapse in prices as rapid as the inflation (okay, maybe not quite as rapid as the market doesn't work like that).
I know of two people who have upped sticks and moved away from London. One is now looking at moving back. So there's some relevance ...
This is absolutely what going on right now and i wonder how many will return when they realize there are no street lights in the country and it's black everywhere amongst many other things.If there was a mass reversal of the exodus, we'll see a collapse in prices as rapid as the inflation (okay, maybe not quite as rapid as the market doesn't work like that).
I know of two people who have upped sticks and moved away from London. One is now looking at moving back. So there's some relevance ...
Blown2CV said:
that's exactly what i have been doing for years. I'd far rather visit london every so often than live there. People that live in London don't get that idea at all, but more do now than did before i guess is the change.
Oh, I get that not living in London is a thing - I’m in Windsor, for example. It’s the idea that you might live (say) four hours away while also knowing that you need to be in the office a few times a month that beats me. I couldn’t make that work. Still, if it works for you then more power to you.
Since we pulled out of the house we were buying a few months ago due to the builder being an absolute whopper when the survey we had done listed more faults than he could shake a stick out, we haven't viewed a single other house.
I think the fact that we are going to have to pay £15k for stamp has really taken the shine off upsizing for us, that and the fact that anything that comes up seems massively overpriced for what it is will mean that we end up staying put unless we miraculously find something.
For us we would essentially be adding £200k to our mortgage to be able to say we have a detached house with a garage (that most of the time you can't get a car in) that's further from the M25 that probably has a smaller garden and driveway than what we have now. Hard to get excited about that!
Had an email from our buyer's solicitor this morning asking how we are getting on, has usually been the estate agent up until now so I imagine the estate agent has said to the buyer's solicitor if you want an update you call them as they have got bored of hearing us say, "nothing yet".
Our buyer has said they are happy to wait for us to find something (probably because they haven't found anything better than ours for similar money and I'm not surprised in this market) but I think their patience may be starting to wear thin. Which is fine of course, I think my wife would be happy to have them pull out to solidify the fact that we are staying put.
To be honest I don't think a correction in the market would really affect us, our house wasn't sold at an inflated price as mortgage undervaluation put a stop to that anyway so staying put for another year or more to see what happens, all the while our mortgage going down further is probably not a bad thing.
I think the fact that we are going to have to pay £15k for stamp has really taken the shine off upsizing for us, that and the fact that anything that comes up seems massively overpriced for what it is will mean that we end up staying put unless we miraculously find something.
For us we would essentially be adding £200k to our mortgage to be able to say we have a detached house with a garage (that most of the time you can't get a car in) that's further from the M25 that probably has a smaller garden and driveway than what we have now. Hard to get excited about that!
Had an email from our buyer's solicitor this morning asking how we are getting on, has usually been the estate agent up until now so I imagine the estate agent has said to the buyer's solicitor if you want an update you call them as they have got bored of hearing us say, "nothing yet".
Our buyer has said they are happy to wait for us to find something (probably because they haven't found anything better than ours for similar money and I'm not surprised in this market) but I think their patience may be starting to wear thin. Which is fine of course, I think my wife would be happy to have them pull out to solidify the fact that we are staying put.
To be honest I don't think a correction in the market would really affect us, our house wasn't sold at an inflated price as mortgage undervaluation put a stop to that anyway so staying put for another year or more to see what happens, all the while our mortgage going down further is probably not a bad thing.
Well, we have had an offer accepted on a property in Pembrokeshire, priced as “offers in excess of” had to bid approx 5% over to do the deal, the purchase wasn’t dependant on selling our existing house, but we had a couple of agents in who both valued at the same level, a friend of a friend was interested before we placed it with an agent, agreed a price of 5% over our valuation (less the agents fees).
So far it’s been easier than buying / selling a car!
So far it’s been easier than buying / selling a car!
DanL said:
Blown2CV said:
that's exactly what i have been doing for years. I'd far rather visit london every so often than live there. People that live in London don't get that idea at all, but more do now than did before i guess is the change.
Oh, I get that not living in London is a thing - I’m in Windsor, for example. It’s the idea that you might live (say) four hours away while also knowing that you need to be in the office a few times a month that beats me. I couldn’t make that work. Still, if it works for you then more power to you.
back to the house moves eh... we hope to move in Sept... searches due back before end Aug, Surveyor booked for 27th aug, deal done on fixtures and fittings etc.... supposedly all progressing well and not looking like it's way off target for the ideal month of move.
conveyancers tho.... ours has multiple offices around the region in which we live. They did have one in Knutsford, which is where we are, but they shut the office and merged the team in with another office in Wilmslow. They didn't even bother to let me know, and I only found out when i turned up at their door to post a load of paperwork. The lender is moaning now as they have 'de-listed' the old branch (they treat each branch as a separate solicitor on the approved list) and had not been notified either of the change, so they will take a number of days to process the 'change of conveyancer' (which it wasn't, it's even the same guy). This has held up the formal mortgage offer going onto the portal. The conveyancer was a real dhead about it and was going off at me saying it shouldn't make any difference as if it was my fking idea to move offices and my fking process and policy that the lender was following. Are they all s?
Now conveyancer throws in that he's having a baby and will be off sometime around mid-Sept! Life happens i guess. I am hoping the 'lawyering' will largely be done by that point. I hope it's his first kid and he has a real shock coming
conveyancers tho.... ours has multiple offices around the region in which we live. They did have one in Knutsford, which is where we are, but they shut the office and merged the team in with another office in Wilmslow. They didn't even bother to let me know, and I only found out when i turned up at their door to post a load of paperwork. The lender is moaning now as they have 'de-listed' the old branch (they treat each branch as a separate solicitor on the approved list) and had not been notified either of the change, so they will take a number of days to process the 'change of conveyancer' (which it wasn't, it's even the same guy). This has held up the formal mortgage offer going onto the portal. The conveyancer was a real d
head about it and was going off at me saying it shouldn't make any difference as if it was my fking idea to move offices and my fking process and policy that the lender was following. Are they all s? Now conveyancer throws in that he's having a baby and will be off sometime around mid-Sept! Life happens i guess. I am hoping the 'lawyering' will largely be done by that point. I hope it's his first kid and he has a real shock coming
Blown2CV said:
back to the house moves eh... we hope to move in Sept... searches due back before end Aug, Surveyor booked for 27th aug, deal done on fixtures and fittings etc.... supposedly all progressing well and not looking like it's way off target for the ideal month of move.
conveyancers tho.... ours has multiple offices around the region in which we live. They did have one in Knutsford, which is where we are, but they shut the office and merged the team in with another office in Wilmslow. They didn't even bother to let me know, and I only found out when i turned up at their door to post a load of paperwork. The lender is moaning now as they have 'de-listed' the old branch (they treat each branch as a separate solicitor on the approved list) and had not been notified either of the change, so they will take a number of days to process the 'change of conveyancer' (which it wasn't, it's even the same guy). This has held up the formal mortgage offer going onto the portal. The conveyancer was a real dhead about it and was going off at me saying it shouldn't make any difference as if it was my fking idea to move offices and my fking process and policy that the lender was following. Are they all s?
Now conveyancer throws in that he's having a baby and will be off sometime around mid-Sept! Life happens i guess. I am hoping the 'lawyering' will largely be done by that point. I hope it's his first kid and he has a real shock coming
Good luck! Glad you got somewhere. Kids can turn up early. I'd ask them now what their plan is for handover when he leaves. Or ideally get it handed over anyway!conveyancers tho.... ours has multiple offices around the region in which we live. They did have one in Knutsford, which is where we are, but they shut the office and merged the team in with another office in Wilmslow. They didn't even bother to let me know, and I only found out when i turned up at their door to post a load of paperwork. The lender is moaning now as they have 'de-listed' the old branch (they treat each branch as a separate solicitor on the approved list) and had not been notified either of the change, so they will take a number of days to process the 'change of conveyancer' (which it wasn't, it's even the same guy). This has held up the formal mortgage offer going onto the portal. The conveyancer was a real d
head about it and was going off at me saying it shouldn't make any difference as if it was my fking idea to move offices and my fking process and policy that the lender was following. Are they all s? Now conveyancer throws in that he's having a baby and will be off sometime around mid-Sept! Life happens i guess. I am hoping the 'lawyering' will largely be done by that point. I hope it's his first kid and he has a real shock coming
Cos the cynic in me thinks their plan is "ignore everything until he's back".
Flooble said:
...With kids settled in schools, I can see lots of very difficult decisions to come. We may see a lot more studio flats being rented/purchased - the return of the "pied a terre" perhaps. Will that drive some people to sell their big 5-bed detached in the country for a 4-bed in the country and studio in the city? What will that do to the market?
Perhaps we will see the return of Relocation Relocation on Channel 4, that died in the aftermath of the financial crisis of 2007/8. Not all bad then...Flooble said:
We may see a lot more studio flats being rented/purchased - the return of the "pied a terre" perhaps. Will that drive some people to sell their big 5-bed detached in the country for a 4-bed in the country and studio in the city? What will that do to the market?
In a way, we sort of did that but pre Covid rather than as a result. Was sick of the UK winters so sold a house I had in the UK, bought a nice one in Spain and then bought a city pad where both myself and the Mrs can walk to our respective workplaces if we want. Only post Brexit issue has been I have to limit my stays in the house for 90 days in 180 (Mrs is Danish so not subject to that limit). Currently doing one month stints in each. We managed to move in December last year, thank god -
We were extremely lucky:
-2.5 years it took to sell our flat, got a cracking price in the end and a flexible buyer that accommodated a long completion date provided we exchanged
-We did have a couple of weeks between selling our flat and moving into the house - could have been a lot worse and storage made things easy for decorating.
-The price we paid was negotiated pre stamp duty announcement and seller didn't try for more after, we could sell for 50k more tomorrow I believe.
-We saved £8k plus on stamp duty
I have been having a look on Rightmove recently out of interest:
-When we were selling our flat, in the 4 digit postcode search there was about 20 flats in competition and loads more in the same price bracket
---Now there are 2, not even just more expensive either, just hardly any for sale and lots of retirement properties.
-When we were buying our house, our search was 3 bed plus detached in a 2 digit postcode search (BH) for sub 400k. There was about 180 houses to go through, shortlist was about 10.
Now there are 50ish houses in that search criteria and by the time you rule out houses on bad roads, no parking etc there are a couple of good ones left.
Again increasing the prices doesn't seem to add many extras either. I can't believe how few properties are for sale now. We struggled to find our house as it was so can't imagine what it must be like for people now.
Fingers crossed for those still at it!
We were extremely lucky:
-2.5 years it took to sell our flat, got a cracking price in the end and a flexible buyer that accommodated a long completion date provided we exchanged
-We did have a couple of weeks between selling our flat and moving into the house - could have been a lot worse and storage made things easy for decorating.
-The price we paid was negotiated pre stamp duty announcement and seller didn't try for more after, we could sell for 50k more tomorrow I believe.
-We saved £8k plus on stamp duty
I have been having a look on Rightmove recently out of interest:
-When we were selling our flat, in the 4 digit postcode search there was about 20 flats in competition and loads more in the same price bracket
---Now there are 2, not even just more expensive either, just hardly any for sale and lots of retirement properties.
-When we were buying our house, our search was 3 bed plus detached in a 2 digit postcode search (BH) for sub 400k. There was about 180 houses to go through, shortlist was about 10.
Now there are 50ish houses in that search criteria and by the time you rule out houses on bad roads, no parking etc there are a couple of good ones left.
Again increasing the prices doesn't seem to add many extras either. I can't believe how few properties are for sale now. We struggled to find our house as it was so can't imagine what it must be like for people now.
Fingers crossed for those still at it!
Flooble said:
It's directly relevant though as the Londoners moving out to the country have driven prices up at the extraordinary rate we have seen. So the people living and working nowhere near London are being affected - they just don't know it yet, unless they are trying to move and being outbid by people for whom an extra £50K on the asking price is nothing (compared with the local where £50K is a years' salary).
If there was a mass reversal of the exodus, we'll see a collapse in prices as rapid as the inflation (okay, maybe not quite as rapid as the market doesn't work like that).
I know of two people who have upped sticks and moved away from London. One is now looking at moving back. So there's some relevance ...
I get that.If there was a mass reversal of the exodus, we'll see a collapse in prices as rapid as the inflation (okay, maybe not quite as rapid as the market doesn't work like that).
I know of two people who have upped sticks and moved away from London. One is now looking at moving back. So there's some relevance ...
But this is a thread which has been mostly about people discussing buying/selling (as I am). I'm sure one of the many other threads about WFH/offices would be appropriate for the other discussions.
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