Apartment blocks and the transition to digital home phones
Discussion
Mum lives in a relatively new retirement complex, built by Churchill.
They had their annual budget meeting last week to go over the proposed increase in service charges. Mostly going up by below the current inflation figure, although electricity charges for the communal areas and the heating system have increased 3 fold.
At the end of the meeting, the regional manager threw in an extra charge - between £1400 and £1700 to "convert each apartment to digital phones". Nothing in writing, so I'm unable to check, but apparently this will be the cost to each resident so that their private phone lines still work. There will be additional costs involved in updating the Careline system.
Mum has her own phone and broadband contract with BT. All the sockets are branded Openreach, so I assume BT/Openreach fitted the building out when it was built 7 years ago. She has 80mbps broadband, so I'm assuming FTTC in the road, and copper to each apartment?
Surely it's just a case of getting a new phone that plugs into the router, and BT doing their thing on the network?
How could their possibly be such a massive charge to each resident?
I'm inclined to think that it's all a misunderstanding, but want to put her mind at rest.
They had their annual budget meeting last week to go over the proposed increase in service charges. Mostly going up by below the current inflation figure, although electricity charges for the communal areas and the heating system have increased 3 fold.
At the end of the meeting, the regional manager threw in an extra charge - between £1400 and £1700 to "convert each apartment to digital phones". Nothing in writing, so I'm unable to check, but apparently this will be the cost to each resident so that their private phone lines still work. There will be additional costs involved in updating the Careline system.
Mum has her own phone and broadband contract with BT. All the sockets are branded Openreach, so I assume BT/Openreach fitted the building out when it was built 7 years ago. She has 80mbps broadband, so I'm assuming FTTC in the road, and copper to each apartment?
Surely it's just a case of getting a new phone that plugs into the router, and BT doing their thing on the network?
How could their possibly be such a massive charge to each resident?
I'm inclined to think that it's all a misunderstanding, but want to put her mind at rest.
In 2025, Openreach* will be switching off their analogue phone service ("POTS"). If you still have an analogue phone plugged into a regular 'BT' socket on the wall, it will no longer work.
This means a change over to VoIP - IIRC the careline type systems will cease to function without the analogue system.
I suspect the manager is quoting for a replacement / upgrade of the careline system.
This means a change over to VoIP - IIRC the careline type systems will cease to function without the analogue system.
I suspect the manager is quoting for a replacement / upgrade of the careline system.
Certainly a 7 year old building shoud be fitted with recent coms to each apartment. I live on an old terrace with FTTC and the old cables going up the poles in the street and out above the road. I have the latest master socket fitted due to a previous problem that Openreach did for no extra charge but no other upgrade was needed. Now my 8 years old phone simply plugs into the Sky router.
Like you say it doesnt sound like it needs such an expensive upgrade, surely the residents can approach their service providor who will then ping Openreach to do a master socket upgrade?
Like you say it doesnt sound like it needs such an expensive upgrade, surely the residents can approach their service providor who will then ping Openreach to do a master socket upgrade?
One thing to consider with a VOIP phone.... what happens when (not if!!) you have a power cut and your router dies???
I'm considered a 'vulnerable person' (purely due to age....) and have been 'reliably informed' that BT (or whoever) cannot disconnect my reliable analogue phone until thay have a replacement with a 100% guaranteed uptime. Mobile signal here is pretty crap so rely on wifi calling.
You can get a ups to keep the router powered but for how long.....
Sounds like a 'management rip off though!!
I'm considered a 'vulnerable person' (purely due to age....) and have been 'reliably informed' that BT (or whoever) cannot disconnect my reliable analogue phone until thay have a replacement with a 100% guaranteed uptime. Mobile signal here is pretty crap so rely on wifi calling.
You can get a ups to keep the router powered but for how long.....
Sounds like a 'management rip off though!!
If she has a copper line currently with phone plugged into the wall then it’s FTTC, the “new” version of that is known as SOGEA, it’s the same copper line but loses the DC voltage and voice side band capability.
Any emergency call systems are a different kettle of fish though as that could be anything.
My parents have FTTP at their place (phone plugs into the router), I got a fall alarm and emergency pendant for them, it also plugs into the router - so nothing extra needed. If you want power failure coverage then just feed the router from a battery (and wall box if FTTP).
For £1800 per flat I’d want to see WTF they are proposing, I’m happy to review it if you like (I’ve been involved in the PSTN shut down programme for the past 3 years).
Jim
Any emergency call systems are a different kettle of fish though as that could be anything.
My parents have FTTP at their place (phone plugs into the router), I got a fall alarm and emergency pendant for them, it also plugs into the router - so nothing extra needed. If you want power failure coverage then just feed the router from a battery (and wall box if FTTP).
For £1800 per flat I’d want to see WTF they are proposing, I’m happy to review it if you like (I’ve been involved in the PSTN shut down programme for the past 3 years).
Jim
You should put a request in writing to the Regional Manager to provide full technical details of what this charge is for.
You are correct that post-2025 consumers will either need to connect their existing handset to a socket on the router or use an Analog Telephone Adaptor (ATA) with a VOIP service - these are in essence the same thing, the big broadband providers have just embedded the ATA in to their routers for convenience. Alternatively they could purchase a VOIP handset that connects to their router either cabled or via WiFi, and connects to the VOIP service directly. VOIP and "Digital Voice" are the same thing, at consumer level anyway.
If your Mum has a broadband connection her provider should sort her out in due course.
At the moment my advice is to sit and wait - nobody has really go their house in order in terms of mass migration of their customer base, I think because they are waiting for Openreach to come to the table with a better solution. Customers with broadband services are easier than customers who only have a voice service - even voice only customers will need a router going forward.
My suspicion at over £1500 per flat is they are paying to have FTTP installed to each flat. There is a massive misconception that all properties will need to be on FTTP as the 2025 date is Openreach "turning off" the copper network - this is not and has never been the case. If the property can get FTTC (or SOGEA - technically the same thing, different provisioning process) then they can have a broadband service post 2025. If they are getting FTTP installed on this basis then they are undertaking work that is not required.
Premises that can't get FTTC - usually those on Exchange Only lines or very long distances from the cabinet should have FTTP available, or Openreach will need to find another alternative in place before 2025.
FTTP into flats, or Multiple Dwelling Units (MDU's) is a problem Openreach don't have a good solution for today. Lots of flats have the copper cables buried directly into the walls by the builders when they're constructed or converted, with no record of the cable routes or easy ways to distribute new fibre cables to each flat. The only solution Openreach currently have is to mount Connectorised Block Terminals (CBT's) on the external walls of the buildings, and run cables out from these across the face of the building and drill new holes through the external wall into the flats. Where they have done this, the residents are usually up in arms because it looks a mess. It's not really workable for larger blocks. MDU's often ignored in FTTP rollouts - I used to live on a new build estate of about 150 houses and there were also 3 blocks of 6 apartments around the estate. The houses have been able to order FTTP over 3 years ago now, but the apartments still can't - despite the cables being right outside the buildings.
You are correct that post-2025 consumers will either need to connect their existing handset to a socket on the router or use an Analog Telephone Adaptor (ATA) with a VOIP service - these are in essence the same thing, the big broadband providers have just embedded the ATA in to their routers for convenience. Alternatively they could purchase a VOIP handset that connects to their router either cabled or via WiFi, and connects to the VOIP service directly. VOIP and "Digital Voice" are the same thing, at consumer level anyway.
If your Mum has a broadband connection her provider should sort her out in due course.
At the moment my advice is to sit and wait - nobody has really go their house in order in terms of mass migration of their customer base, I think because they are waiting for Openreach to come to the table with a better solution. Customers with broadband services are easier than customers who only have a voice service - even voice only customers will need a router going forward.
My suspicion at over £1500 per flat is they are paying to have FTTP installed to each flat. There is a massive misconception that all properties will need to be on FTTP as the 2025 date is Openreach "turning off" the copper network - this is not and has never been the case. If the property can get FTTC (or SOGEA - technically the same thing, different provisioning process) then they can have a broadband service post 2025. If they are getting FTTP installed on this basis then they are undertaking work that is not required.
Premises that can't get FTTC - usually those on Exchange Only lines or very long distances from the cabinet should have FTTP available, or Openreach will need to find another alternative in place before 2025.
FTTP into flats, or Multiple Dwelling Units (MDU's) is a problem Openreach don't have a good solution for today. Lots of flats have the copper cables buried directly into the walls by the builders when they're constructed or converted, with no record of the cable routes or easy ways to distribute new fibre cables to each flat. The only solution Openreach currently have is to mount Connectorised Block Terminals (CBT's) on the external walls of the buildings, and run cables out from these across the face of the building and drill new holes through the external wall into the flats. Where they have done this, the residents are usually up in arms because it looks a mess. It's not really workable for larger blocks. MDU's often ignored in FTTP rollouts - I used to live on a new build estate of about 150 houses and there were also 3 blocks of 6 apartments around the estate. The houses have been able to order FTTP over 3 years ago now, but the apartments still can't - despite the cables being right outside the buildings.
Thanks for the replies.
It does seem like the regional manager has either misunderstood what will happen, or explained it very badly to the residents.
Before the meeting, everybody was sent a letter, listing all the costs behind the service charges in great detail. I spent an hour going through it with mum, making notes of things which she needed to query at the meeting. The BT telephone thing wasn't mentioned in the letter, just verbally at the end of the meeting.
To clarify, when the time comes, mum will just be able to plug her existing cordless phone into the green socket on her BT router? Presumably the socket needs to be enabled via the router's admin page? I did try just plugging the phone in, no dial tone.
The Careline system is pretty complex. Each apartment has a phone, 2 emergency buttons, and a pendant. The phone is also used to answer the entry system, and can make internal calls. There are also 12 separate "access points" around the building which apparently allow the location of a triggered pendant to be pinpointed.
Seems to me though that all the kit within the building would still work, it's just interface to the BT network that needs changing.
It does seem like the regional manager has either misunderstood what will happen, or explained it very badly to the residents.
Before the meeting, everybody was sent a letter, listing all the costs behind the service charges in great detail. I spent an hour going through it with mum, making notes of things which she needed to query at the meeting. The BT telephone thing wasn't mentioned in the letter, just verbally at the end of the meeting.
To clarify, when the time comes, mum will just be able to plug her existing cordless phone into the green socket on her BT router? Presumably the socket needs to be enabled via the router's admin page? I did try just plugging the phone in, no dial tone.
The Careline system is pretty complex. Each apartment has a phone, 2 emergency buttons, and a pendant. The phone is also used to answer the entry system, and can make internal calls. There are also 12 separate "access points" around the building which apparently allow the location of a triggered pendant to be pinpointed.
Seems to me though that all the kit within the building would still work, it's just interface to the BT network that needs changing.
clockworks said:
The Careline system is pretty complex. Each apartment has a phone, 2 emergency buttons, and a pendant. The phone is also used to answer the entry system, and can make internal calls. There are also 12 separate "access points" around the building which apparently allow the location of a triggered pendant to be pinpointed.
Seems to me though that all the kit within the building would still work, it's just interface to the BT network that needs changing.
When you say "phone", which phone? Is this the same cordless phone you metioned eleswhere or a separate phone asociated only with the Careline system?Seems to me though that all the kit within the building would still work, it's just interface to the BT network that needs changing.
Mr Pointy said:
When you say "phone", which phone? Is this the same cordless phone you metioned eleswhere or a separate phone asociated only with the Careline system?
A separate corded phone, supplied with the apartment, only used for Careline, door entry, and internal calls. Separate socket on the wall, marked "Careline".BT service is on a separate BT/Openreach master socket, standard domestic type. Mum's cordless phone and the BT router are plugged in here.
2 totally separate systems by the looks of it. Careline is paid for in the service charge, landline/broadband paid for by each resident with whichever supplier they choose, just like a normal domestic user.
I think that Careline must be this product?
Welcome to Careline, the UK's favourite personal alarm provider
This depends on the current BT infrastructure.
Welcome to Careline, the UK's favourite personal alarm provider
This depends on the current BT infrastructure.
clockworks said:
Mr Pointy said:
When you say "phone", which phone? Is this the same cordless phone you metioned eleswhere or a separate phone asociated only with the Careline system?
A separate corded phone, supplied with the apartment, only used for Careline, door entry, and internal calls. Separate socket on the wall, marked "Careline".BT service is on a separate BT/Openreach master socket, standard domestic type. Mum's cordless phone and the BT router are plugged in here.
2 totally separate systems by the looks of it. Careline is paid for in the service charge, landline/broadband paid for by each resident with whichever supplier they choose, just like a normal domestic user.
The upshot is though that she shouldn't need anything to change with the internal wiring or connections for her broadband & phone, although note that if the power goes off, so will the phone.
I suppose it's possible that BT are offering to send someone round to assist every resident with the changeover, at a fixed price for all 56 apartments. Some will be able to do it themselves, some with help from relatives, but quite a few will undoubtedly need help. Keeping everyone happy would be too much for the manager, who only works normal office hours.
Good to know that existing phones can be used with possibly a router swap for those that have a broadband contract.
Apple watches (with fall detection) seem to be the current "thing" for many of the residents, so they don't bother with the pendants. They now only use the Careline phone as an intercom, which will still work with no changes? I can see those residents objecting to a big one-off payment for "upgrades".
The whole thing is possibly a big misunderstanding, from a bunch of mis-informed people spreading half-truths. When the budget letters arrived a couple of weeks before the meeting, residents were complaining about "£400 a month increases" in their service charge.
When I read mum's copy of the letter, it quite clearly showed that owners of the biggest flats were being told that their charge would be going up to just over £400 a month, an increase of a shade over £100. Mum has a 1 bed flat, her charge is going up by just under £80 a month. A big percentage increase, but mostly down to the price of commercial electricity contracts for the communal supply.
Good to know that existing phones can be used with possibly a router swap for those that have a broadband contract.
Apple watches (with fall detection) seem to be the current "thing" for many of the residents, so they don't bother with the pendants. They now only use the Careline phone as an intercom, which will still work with no changes? I can see those residents objecting to a big one-off payment for "upgrades".
The whole thing is possibly a big misunderstanding, from a bunch of mis-informed people spreading half-truths. When the budget letters arrived a couple of weeks before the meeting, residents were complaining about "£400 a month increases" in their service charge.
When I read mum's copy of the letter, it quite clearly showed that owners of the biggest flats were being told that their charge would be going up to just over £400 a month, an increase of a shade over £100. Mum has a 1 bed flat, her charge is going up by just under £80 a month. A big percentage increase, but mostly down to the price of commercial electricity contracts for the communal supply.
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff