Wood Burners and Installation

[Purosangue]

Chumley.mouse said:

It would be up to the homeowner to get the building control to sign it off. Not the installer who is not certified due to them not giving a certificate to say it is ?

Or you could get the hetas guy round who leaves open flues terminating into the loft.

One thing I’ve learnt in my life is just because someone is a “professional “. It doesn’t mean you’ll get professional results.

not all installs are as they seem

nothing wrong with this DIY effort ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[monthou]

Purosangue said:

not all installs are as they seem

nothing wrong with this DIY effort ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Was it signed off by building control?

[Mr Whippy]

My new build has two flues ready for fires.

But upon inspection (drilled big hole in plasterboard) one liner looked like it had wood touching it which seemed against regs.

Further, BR says the flue should be accessible for inspection but it’s not.
It’s covered in plasterboards, ceramic tiles over boards in bathrooms, or behind block walls, right up to where it goes through the roof.


One fire installer was happy to install into it as apparently they’d supplied the flue parts but not the fitting.

Another said they’d have to refit it all at great cost (god knows how they’d even access them as they both had double 45deg kinks as they ran suspended through wall cavities/breasts alongside soil pipe etc.



I’m baffled how this can even be the case.

It’s either right or it’s not.

The regs aren’t worth the paper they’re written on if flues can be installed on a new build not to regs.

Of course the regs are sensible and worth following etc, but if you can’t trust they’ve been applied then, as noted, not worth the paper written on.

Edited by Mr Whippy on Sunday 1st December 20:07

[Chumley.mouse]

If someone self installs and then gets the council building officer round to sign it off, what do they actually do ? Im guessing that few of them have any experience of stove fitting ? Are they going to go up on the roof and check everything is done to regs ? Or access the loft space to see if everything is done properly ? If a concealed liner is used how do they check that if its not accessible ? Do they smoke test ? Or is it just a tape measure out job to make sure the hearth is the right size or its not just plonked on top of the carpet ? This is a genuine question as for the money they charge you would expect a decent level of inspection ?

[monthou]

Chumley.mouse said:

If someone self installs and then gets the council building officer round to sign it off, what do they actually do ? Im guessing that few of them have any experience of stove fitting ? Are they going to go up on the roof and check everything is done to regs ? Or access the loft space to see if everything is done properly ? If a concealed liner is used how do they check that if its not accessible ? Do they smoke test ? Or is it just a tape measure out job to make sure the hearth is the right size or its not just plonked on top of the carpet ? This is a genuine question as for the money they charge you would expect a decent level of inspection ?

I'd hope for £300 they'd do more than glance at it. I doubt they'd go on the roof - if I do mine it'll be a ladder and fall-arrest harness, can't see a building inspector going for that. Nothing to see between the chimney and the closure plate.

[Simpo Two]

Amazing how complicated a metal box and a bit of tube can get isn't it!

[Purosangue]

Mr Whippy said:

My new build has two flues ready for fires.

But upon inspection (drilled big hole in plasterboard) one liner looked like it had wood touching it which seemed against regs.

Further, BR says the flue should be accessible for inspection but it’s not.
It’s covered in plasterboards, ceramic tiles over boards in bathrooms, or behind block walls, right up to where it goes through the roof.


One fire installer was happy to install into it as apparently they’d supplied the flue parts but not the fitting.

Another said they’d have to refit it all at great cost (god knows how they’d even access them as they both had double 45deg kinks as they ran suspended through wall cavities/breasts alongside soil pipe etc.



I’m baffled how this can even be the case.

It’s either right or it’s not.

The regs aren’t worth the paper they’re written on if flues can be installed on a new build not to regs.

Of course the regs are sensible and worth following etc, but if you can’t trust they’ve been applied then, as noted, not worth the paper written on.

Edited by Mr Whippy on Sunday 1st December 20:07

The Hetas regs are actually quite common sense

a twin walled flue has to be 50mm from a combustible surface , plaster board is considered a combustible surface , so if your installing a woodburner against a plasterboard wall you would fit a fire wall ( pink fire retardant plasterboard / cement board / vitreous enamel board etc, ) that has a 25mm airgap from the existing wall, if your placing a wood burner on a combustible floor ( wooden office building etc) purchase one with a stand on a 20mm hearth , it depends what the stove manufacturer recommend all stoves differ slightly in recommended installation distances.

guess we have been lucky in having a technical advisor whose 50 years .in the trade whoes also the technical advisor for Dorset county council on wood burning stoves , at 74 still climbing on roofs .

hes never had a complaint in all the hundreds of installs , but there are plenty of cowboys about , they soon get caught out for us its all about reputation , safety and giving the customer a quality product .

[Frankychops]

The regs are so clear, it’s so so easy to DIY if you can read.

[dickymint]

Purosangue said:

If you are not Registered with HETAS as a qualified engineer then your could be prosecuted

https://www.hetas.co.uk/unregistered-installer/


https://www.hetas.co.uk/consumer/certificates-of-c...


all properties can be checked in the UK if they have a wood burning stove and are registered with HETAS just give them a call and give your postcode , if your on the register then your fine

Note If you have a wood burning stove and it was installed by a non Hetas Engineer to make it compliant , the whole system will have to be pulled out with a new install , No HETAS engineer will sign off on an already installed system without ensuring every connection is compliant , we had a builder install a flexi flue liner in a chimney on inspection it was installed upside down , it all had to come out , why you would risk your family and potentially your home by trying to save a few thousand beggars belief , ,

Edited by Purosangue on Sunday 1st December 16:54

I'm calling absolute bullst on this statement!!

[Purosangue]

dickymint said:

Purosangue said:

If you are not Registered with HETAS as a qualified engineer then your could be prosecuted

https://www.hetas.co.uk/unregistered-installer/


https://www.hetas.co.uk/consumer/certificates-of-c...


all properties can be checked in the UK if they have a wood burning stove and are registered with HETAS just give them a call and give your postcode , if your on the register then your fine

Note If you have a wood burning stove and it was installed by a non Hetas Engineer to make it compliant , the whole system will have to be pulled out with a new install , No HETAS engineer will sign off on an already installed system without ensuring every connection is compliant , we had a builder install a flexi flue liner in a chimney on inspection it was installed upside down , it all had to come out , why you would risk your family and potentially your home by trying to save a few thousand beggars belief , ,

Edited by Purosangue on Sunday 1st December 16:54

I'm calling absolute bullst on this statement!!

1. no Hetas engineer is going to sign off on someones else install period so yes if the stove has been moved the system will require re installation ie Flue register plate and Stove connection

if you want to knock out the chimney , render the inside lay render beads and ay the hearth thats fine

quote

“Will a Hetas installer sign off my install?” Some will, most will not. They are not supposed to sign off the work of another person but they can “turn up at the last and connect the stove” and charge you for this (e.g. you do all the building work, hearth etc.).

Edited by Purosangue on Sunday 1st December 23:31

[Chumley.mouse]

An upside down liner is not necessarily dangerous, it just means that the liner has the chance of failing/ wearing out sooner as any water that gets down the flue can potentially sit in the rims on the liner. All liners fail at some point. Personally i’d say burning fuel with a high moisture content is worse than an upside down flue as the creosote the condensation creates will damage the flue quicker.

[Purosangue]

Chumley.mouse said:

An upside down liner is not necessarily dangerous, it just means that the liner has the chance of failing/ wearing out sooner as any water that gets down the flue can potentially sit in the rims on the liner. All liners fail at some point. Personally i’d say burning fuel with a high moisture content is worse than an upside down flue as the creosote the condensation creates will damage the flue quicker.

why would you install a liner the wrong way ? , they are manufactured in one direction , on Sheidal 316 liners there are even arrows showing the flue direction.

we would not sign off a flue system installed the wrong way , some installer might , we dont

[Chumley.mouse]

I agree, I wouldn’t install a liner upside down, but to state that if one was it would kill your family and burn your house down is just scaremongering bullst.

[dickymint]

Purosangue said:

dickymint said:

Purosangue said:

If you are not Registered with HETAS as a qualified engineer then your could be prosecuted

https://www.hetas.co.uk/unregistered-installer/


https://www.hetas.co.uk/consumer/certificates-of-c...


all properties can be checked in the UK if they have a wood burning stove and are registered with HETAS just give them a call and give your postcode , if your on the register then your fine

Note If you have a wood burning stove and it was installed by a non Hetas Engineer to make it compliant , the whole system will have to be pulled out with a new install , No HETAS engineer will sign off on an already installed system without ensuring every connection is compliant , we had a builder install a flexi flue liner in a chimney on inspection it was installed upside down , it all had to come out , why you would risk your family and potentially your home by trying to save a few thousand beggars belief , ,

Edited by Purosangue on Sunday 1st December 16:54

I'm calling absolute bullst on this statement!!

1. no Hetas engineer is going to sign off on someones else install period so yes if the stove has been moved the system will require re installation ie Flue register plate and Stove connection

if you want to knock out the chimney , render the inside lay render beads and ay the hearth thats fine

quote

“Will a Hetas installer sign off my install?” Some will, most will not. They are not supposed to sign off the work of another person but they can “turn up at the last and connect the stove” and charge you for this (e.g. you do all the building work, hearth etc.).

Edited by Purosangue on Sunday 1st December 23:31

Stop scaremongering!!


Retrospective regularisation applications


If the work has already recently started or possibly even been completed without proper consent, then a retrospective application can be made using a Regularisation form.

You can even use this if the work was carried out by a former owner. Any work can potentially be regularised as long as it was carried out after the 11 November 1985.

The purpose of the process is to regularise the unauthorised works and obtain a certificate of regularisation. Depending on the circumstances, exposure, removal and/or rectification of works may be necessary to establish compliance with the building regulations.

It's best to contact your local authority building control team to discuss your individual circumstances before submitting a building control regularisation application.


https://www.labc.co.uk/homeowners/what-type-buildi...

[princeperch]

On the few occasions I used the council bco they came out and checked I had a carbon monoxide alarm and took the sweep certificate from me. That's it. No measurements taken and no other inspection.

The private building inspector I used more recently didn't even come out and physically inspect it, all he wanted was a certificate from the sweep.

Edited by princeperch on Monday 2nd December 07:55

[Frankychops]

Purosangue said:

1. no Hetas engineer is going to sign off on someones else install period so yes if the stove has been moved the system will require re installation ie Flue register plate and Stove connection

if you want to knock out the chimney , render the inside lay render beads and ay the hearth thats fine

quote

“Will a Hetas installer sign off my install?” Some will, most will not. They are not supposed to sign off the work of another person but they can “turn up at the last and connect the stove” and charge you for this (e.g. you do all the building work, hearth etc.).

Edited by Purosangue on Sunday 1st December 23:31

I've had a 'engineer' sign off.

[BigBen]

I want to put a woodburner inplace of an existing former fireplace.

I presume I need a single skin liner and for the chimney to be uncapped (obviously)

What else should I be asking the installer for?

Ben

[Purosangue]

BigBen said:

I want to put a woodburner inplace of an existing former fireplace.

I presume I need a single skin liner and for the chimney to be uncapped (obviously)

What else should I be asking the installer for?

Ben

First calculate the cubic size of the room for KW required to heat sufficiently. measure in Metres height x width x length divide by 500 this will give you KW required remember deduct for windows
Decide which type of Stove you want , Hunter , Saltfire , Esse are good Stoves , 5KW is optimal , any higher output would require an additional ventilation into the room .
Check your stove will fit the Fire chamber , each stove will give a minimum distance for combustibles and airflow normaly at least 50mm all around the stove .
start from the fireplace , measure the opening , width and the height , is it fitted with a fire chamber ?

Will the fire chamber require " knocking out " the brickwork inside most fireplaces is normally a bit rough , when the chamber is removed , it may require a scratch coat render , then installing render beads a second render coat , always mix a lime mortar mix 6, 1, 1 That is 6 parts washed plastering sand , 1 part lime and 1 part cement , mix to a nice creamy mix ,. concrete Lintel .

Once rendered lay the hearth , Limestone or black slate Hearths are nice , never cut the hearth with the join in the middle idealy a 600 x 900 slab facing towards the room with two pieces either side , then the stove will fit nicely in the middle,

, if you cut a T piece hearth ( 1 piece ) remember the weak points at the edge of the T and could easily crack , if someone steps on it.

Bed on a fully slurry mortar mix , let it set over night before installing your stove as it will sink,.

always have the chimney swept before dropping the liner ..

The engineer will measure the fire opening , normally a 5" flexible 316 steel liner ( Schiedel) is a good reliable make , he will calculate the length of the liner required .

register plate made from 12 gauge steel , ( engineer will cut this to size ) with angle steel to support register plate.

screw fix adaptor (b the part that screws onto your flue and connects to the flue pipe )
stove connecting pipe 5"

Screw in terracottra cowl
we normally spray the flue piope / register plate and screw fix adaptor in matt black to match the stove.

The Flue house , a very good reliable firm for parts

https://www.fluehouse.com/?gad_source=1&gclid=...

One other point scaffolding to reach the chimney crown , ideally the fitter should be at chest height to the pot , never install a flue from a ladder , you install the liner in an arc . on many occasions the chimney stack , crown and pot will require attention , this may not have been quoted for , while scaffolding is in place , its a good time to repair and make good

hope this helps

NB for a nice shiny hearth mix 1 part boiled linseed oil with 3 parts white spirit and paint over the stone it will bring it out nice and shiny , if you have a marble use a bit of WDE 40 it will hide any scratches , remember a marble hearth or glass and your stovec will move when you open the door to place logs in , push back into position , on rough sawn granite stoves have less movement

Edited by Purosangue on Monday 2nd December 18:12

[Youforreal.]

dickymint said:

romft123 said:

gangzoom said:

Ours was an absolute pain to install, added probably nearly 4 weeks of delay into the build. The builder kept on trying to get us to forget it and get gas/electric instead.

Total cost was about £4.5K with the stove, only been used once since we moved in September, absolute luxury, worth every penny if you can afford it.

Why have you pushed it right back into the fireplace?

To keep the flue straight I'd guess - there's a maximum allowable number (four from memory) to comply with building regs.

Why did it take him so long, was it an issue from the chimney to first floor?

I’ve a freestanding in a sunroom with a similar setup in the roof space above, took me 2 days to install start to finish on my own about 8 years back.

Stoves avanti 55 midi, built like a tank.

Actually refinished it this summer with new fire brick and screws, everything else inc the guard you see are original but changing for a stovax studio air 2 next year.



New unit I’m going for

Edited by Youforreal. on Monday 2nd December 18:03

[BigBen]

Purosangue said:

Loads of usefull stuff

Thank you