Does anyone believe supernatural rubbish?
Discussion
The trouble with any sort of academic theory using quantum physics is that it encourages a whole load of;
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo
Edited by otolith on Thursday 18th May 00:05
I do find all this very interesting.
One thing that is missing though, to my mind, is what, the point of these ghostly interactions?
Our gullible chums have reported:
- a breath on the arm and radio interference.
- a dead mother turning on and off the tv.
- a door being unlatched in the night.
So let's say (putting rational thought to one side) these things did happen.
What's the point to it?
It's not communication in any meaningful way, there's no message there of any import.
All it says it that some dead people can interact with our world in a very limited way and not in any way that is of any use.
Can they spell out the name of the guy that killed them? No, but they can drop a tennis ball in a sink.
Can they warn of impending danger? No, but can blow on your arm twice.
Can they tell you how much they miss you and the afterlife is amazing? Nope, but can turn the telly on and off randomly.
So, really what's the point?
One thing that is missing though, to my mind, is what, the point of these ghostly interactions?
Our gullible chums have reported:
- a breath on the arm and radio interference.
- a dead mother turning on and off the tv.
- a door being unlatched in the night.
So let's say (putting rational thought to one side) these things did happen.
What's the point to it?
It's not communication in any meaningful way, there's no message there of any import.
All it says it that some dead people can interact with our world in a very limited way and not in any way that is of any use.
Can they spell out the name of the guy that killed them? No, but they can drop a tennis ball in a sink.
Can they warn of impending danger? No, but can blow on your arm twice.
Can they tell you how much they miss you and the afterlife is amazing? Nope, but can turn the telly on and off randomly.
So, really what's the point?
Efbe said:
of course.
standard theory is that our brains are made up of neurons and synapses. Kind of like in a computer CPUs, the transistors and connections. (However in a brain the connections wire themselves) This mechanism of neurons and synapses works like a computer and makes the brain work.
However there has been a big issue with that. The Godelian argument discusses whether there is sufficient computational power in the brain for the processing it does, and the theory is that it doesn't. So there must be something else.
A couple of very well renowned scientists came up with the theory(Orch-OR) of quantum waves within microtubules in the brain which would account for this additional computing power.
It's not as daft as it first may seem. It is known and accepted that Quantum processes are involved in photosynthesis, eye sight, enzymes and many more processes.
Quantum mechanics is a huge and vastly complex subject of which we still have elementary knowledge. yet it seems to affect most things in life. Directly or indirectly.
Where it gets a bit more complex is how quantum particles can interact over great distances or be in two places at once.
This doesn't mean that Schrodingers cat could be inside and outside of the box, but particles in the cat could exist elsewhere at the same time. kind of.
We just don't know the full implications of this yet. Tests have been done to show that quantum processes do exist in the brain. When the microtubules are affected chemically, a coma can be induced. Additionally, this quantum activity continues for a short period after the brain itself has stopped. Life after death, albeit incredibly brief. But it does show how brain functions can be independent from the brain. In a way
More reading here
https://www.quora.com/How-plausible-is-Penrose-and...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/oct/26/yo...
So is your argument that quantum mechanics exists, therefore life after death?standard theory is that our brains are made up of neurons and synapses. Kind of like in a computer CPUs, the transistors and connections. (However in a brain the connections wire themselves) This mechanism of neurons and synapses works like a computer and makes the brain work.
However there has been a big issue with that. The Godelian argument discusses whether there is sufficient computational power in the brain for the processing it does, and the theory is that it doesn't. So there must be something else.
A couple of very well renowned scientists came up with the theory(Orch-OR) of quantum waves within microtubules in the brain which would account for this additional computing power.
It's not as daft as it first may seem. It is known and accepted that Quantum processes are involved in photosynthesis, eye sight, enzymes and many more processes.
Quantum mechanics is a huge and vastly complex subject of which we still have elementary knowledge. yet it seems to affect most things in life. Directly or indirectly.
Where it gets a bit more complex is how quantum particles can interact over great distances or be in two places at once.
This doesn't mean that Schrodingers cat could be inside and outside of the box, but particles in the cat could exist elsewhere at the same time. kind of.
We just don't know the full implications of this yet. Tests have been done to show that quantum processes do exist in the brain. When the microtubules are affected chemically, a coma can be induced. Additionally, this quantum activity continues for a short period after the brain itself has stopped. Life after death, albeit incredibly brief. But it does show how brain functions can be independent from the brain. In a way
More reading here
https://www.quora.com/How-plausible-is-Penrose-and...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/oct/26/yo...
Or is it - this stuff is really complicated, therefore ghosts?
Every day's a school day
drainbrain said:
Mike: " Hi Doc!! I've just seen a ghost which was obviously a hallucination. So I've come to get checked out just in case I've got a brain tumour..."
Professor Cook RC Psych: " O Hi Mike....just lie down on the couch for a minute...."
Actual medical doctor: "Ok Mike, we'll refer you for some tests to make sure there's nothing obviously wrong".Professor Cook RC Psych: " O Hi Mike....just lie down on the couch for a minute...."
The list of injuries and diseases that can cause hallucinations is pretty lengthy, even outside of mental disorders. Even something as innocuous as low blood sugar or too much caffeine can trigger hallucinations. Despite this, a certain type of person will always jump onto the least likely explanation.
The last thing anyone suffering from hallucinations needs is to be treated by a psychiatrist that believes so strongly in fairy tails that he got himself ordained.
otolith said:
The trouble with any sort of academic theory using quantum physics is that it encourages a whole load of;
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo
I knew before clicking that link it would feature Deepak Chopra http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo
Edited by otolith on Thursday 18th May 00:05
otolith said:
The trouble with any sort of academic theory using quantum physics is that it encourages a whole load of;
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo
Yes, quite. Which is why I have tried to be quite careful in what I say on this http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo
Edited by otolith on Thursday 18th May 00:05
smn159 said:
Efbe said:
of course.
standard theory is that our brains are made up of neurons and synapses. Kind of like in a computer CPUs, the transistors and connections. (However in a brain the connections wire themselves) This mechanism of neurons and synapses works like a computer and makes the brain work.
However there has been a big issue with that. The Godelian argument discusses whether there is sufficient computational power in the brain for the processing it does, and the theory is that it doesn't. So there must be something else.
A couple of very well renowned scientists came up with the theory(Orch-OR) of quantum waves within microtubules in the brain which would account for this additional computing power.
It's not as daft as it first may seem. It is known and accepted that Quantum processes are involved in photosynthesis, eye sight, enzymes and many more processes.
Quantum mechanics is a huge and vastly complex subject of which we still have elementary knowledge. yet it seems to affect most things in life. Directly or indirectly.
Where it gets a bit more complex is how quantum particles can interact over great distances or be in two places at once.
This doesn't mean that Schrodingers cat could be inside and outside of the box, but particles in the cat could exist elsewhere at the same time. kind of.
We just don't know the full implications of this yet. Tests have been done to show that quantum processes do exist in the brain. When the microtubules are affected chemically, a coma can be induced. Additionally, this quantum activity continues for a short period after the brain itself has stopped. Life after death, albeit incredibly brief. But it does show how brain functions can be independent from the brain. In a way
More reading here
https://www.quora.com/How-plausible-is-Penrose-and...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/oct/26/yo...
So is your argument that quantum mechanics exists, therefore life after death?standard theory is that our brains are made up of neurons and synapses. Kind of like in a computer CPUs, the transistors and connections. (However in a brain the connections wire themselves) This mechanism of neurons and synapses works like a computer and makes the brain work.
However there has been a big issue with that. The Godelian argument discusses whether there is sufficient computational power in the brain for the processing it does, and the theory is that it doesn't. So there must be something else.
A couple of very well renowned scientists came up with the theory(Orch-OR) of quantum waves within microtubules in the brain which would account for this additional computing power.
It's not as daft as it first may seem. It is known and accepted that Quantum processes are involved in photosynthesis, eye sight, enzymes and many more processes.
Quantum mechanics is a huge and vastly complex subject of which we still have elementary knowledge. yet it seems to affect most things in life. Directly or indirectly.
Where it gets a bit more complex is how quantum particles can interact over great distances or be in two places at once.
This doesn't mean that Schrodingers cat could be inside and outside of the box, but particles in the cat could exist elsewhere at the same time. kind of.
We just don't know the full implications of this yet. Tests have been done to show that quantum processes do exist in the brain. When the microtubules are affected chemically, a coma can be induced. Additionally, this quantum activity continues for a short period after the brain itself has stopped. Life after death, albeit incredibly brief. But it does show how brain functions can be independent from the brain. In a way
More reading here
https://www.quora.com/How-plausible-is-Penrose-and...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/oct/26/yo...
Or is it - this stuff is really complicated, therefore ghosts?
Every day's a school day
My argument is that quantum mechanics exists in biology, potentially within the mind. All of this is rather recent development in science and relatively little is known.
This does NOT mean ghosts/life after death/Eskimos really do exist.
What it means it that we cannot definitively say what the implications of this are, and that we have a section of science in which we know there is much more to be found, but not what it is yet.
Therefore, I would not say ghosts/mind control/Mexicans don't exist, just that we have no evidence that they do exist or could exist.
However life after death does exist. Just for an incredibly brief amount of time. Unfortunately as Otolith mentioned, this has and will be used as validation of the supernatural because that's just the way people are.
There is no point surmising what the end point of this quantum biological research/theory will be, so let's not bother.
For those who see a ghost and worry, save yourselves a trip to A&E, GP, or 'a facility'.
There are many answers to phasmophobia.
Try this instead:
http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Fearing-Ghosts-and-Par...
There are many answers to phasmophobia.
Try this instead:
http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Fearing-Ghosts-and-Par...
drainbrain said:
For those who see a ghost and worry, save yourselves a trip to A&E, GP, or 'a facility'.
There are many answers to phasmophobia.
Try this instead:
http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Fearing-Ghosts-and-Par...
Some sound advice in there that a few on this thread would do well to take note of There are many answers to phasmophobia.
Try this instead:
http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Fearing-Ghosts-and-Par...
Article said:
Question the existence of ghosts. Once you've broken your fear of ghosts by imagining them as unthreatening beings, you can take another step towards disbelieving in ghosts altogether. Start to question what you believe about ghosts and ask yourself why you believe in these things
Ask yourself honestly, "What proof do I have that ghosts exist? Or that anything paranormal exists?"
You will quickly realize that most of your "proof" that ghosts exist was based on feelings and intuitions rather than concrete, observable facts
Ask yourself honestly, "What proof do I have that ghosts exist? Or that anything paranormal exists?"
You will quickly realize that most of your "proof" that ghosts exist was based on feelings and intuitions rather than concrete, observable facts
Edited by smn159 on Thursday 18th May 15:51
SpeckledJim said:
Death is a process though, not an absolute single moment in time.
And for the Monkey Cage fans, when is a Strawberry dead?http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02ykcwh
drainbrain said:
poing said:
drainbrain said:
ETA: Actually, modest bloke that he is, Chris Cook's full 'title' is:
Reverend Professor Christopher Charles Holland Cook, BSc MB BS MD MA PhD FRCPsych if that makes any difference to anyone.
It sure does, he's clearly a bit gullible and should be treated with suitable caution. He also appears to have too much time on his hands.Reverend Professor Christopher Charles Holland Cook, BSc MB BS MD MA PhD FRCPsych if that makes any difference to anyone.
drainbrain said:
Come on. This isn't complicated.
This is the most accurate thing you've said. Sadly your version is along the lines of "I can't explain it therefor I see dead people"These threads always bring out a rather special class of lunatics.
Honestly, in the non existent world of supernature and the spirit Chris Cook, celebrated mind though he is, is but a dwarf (albeit a bit of a well academically qualified one). If you want to ramp up the stakes about a hundred times have a wander through some of the works of Confucius or Lao Tzu!! Now you're at the level where writings can transmit wisdom! But beware. If you're a thinker, those Chinese chaps can be life changing!
Please. PLEASE! Humour me. Please declare Confucius and L-T to be deluded/gullible /lunatics or something! Just post something to that effect! Pretty please!
"I can't explain it therefore I see dead people"!!! omigod. I'm going to pee myself!! O where's the 'holding your sides' smilie when you need it!!
Priceless!! An accidental wholly natural and most wonderful zen koan!! "I can't explain it, therefore I see dead people"!!
Edited by drainbrain on Wednesday 17th May 23:51
Mr Cook has a very religious bent and I have no idea what he claims in his books regarding the supernatural but he firmly believes in God which is enough for me to ignore his ideas on ghosts and such.
If you genuinely think that things don't develop and change with time and knowledge then I'm afraid you'll spend your life quite quite deluded. Actually, who am I kidding, you've made your mind up based on a few select writers and your interpretation of their works so any attempt at reason is pointless.
Edited by poing on Thursday 18th May 20:51
poing said:
I realise you're a particularly special nutter and I haven't read everything you've posted in detail (I can't imagine ever being that bored) but I did see someone else already point out the large flaw in most of your arguments. A lot of the people you quote were a very long time ago, typically in a date ending BC. It's pretty safe to say their scientific knowledge was somewhat less than it is now. I don't know what most of them believed in or if they claimed that ghosts or other supernatural things exist, it doesn't matter or change the basic laws of science.
Mr Cook has a very religious bent and I have no idea what he claims in his books regarding the supernatural but he firmly believes in God which is enough for me to ignore his ideas on ghosts and such.
If you genuinely think that things don't develop and change with time and knowledge then I'm afraid you'll spend your life quite quite deluded. Actually, who am I kidding, you've made your mind up based on a few select writers and your interpretation of their works so any attempt at reason is pointless.
What can I say, except, " I can't explain it, therefore I see dead people " (the new Universal Answer) Mr Cook has a very religious bent and I have no idea what he claims in his books regarding the supernatural but he firmly believes in God which is enough for me to ignore his ideas on ghosts and such.
If you genuinely think that things don't develop and change with time and knowledge then I'm afraid you'll spend your life quite quite deluded. Actually, who am I kidding, you've made your mind up based on a few select writers and your interpretation of their works so any attempt at reason is pointless.
Edited by poing on Thursday 18th May 20:51
And on that topic, here's a great ghost story for you. I know I know, it's another OLD story. Definitely AD tho' (not BC). It's in a book of fairy (and ghost) stories called The Bible, and it's Matthew 17.
But the question the story asks is a good one. Is God the God of the living, or the God of the dead? And are the ghosts it contains ghosts at all, or are they as alive as the other characters could we but 'see' them?
What do YOU think, Master Poing? Could 'seeing ghosts' be a mere matter of perception?
(Lao Tzu sends his regards by the way. LOVES your koan. But disagrees with you on immutability. 'Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose' as they say in Eternity...)
TwigtheWonderkid said:
CCTV is everywhere. Millions of cameras worldwide in offices, shops, homes,car parks, the High Street. Not a single case of CCTV picking up anything "supernatural". So draw your own conclusions from that.
Wrong. There are zillions of CCTV weird/ghosts/UFOs/monsters/sprites/aliens etc videos. The problem is that it's easy to make a spoof video.cymtriks said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
CCTV is everywhere. Millions of cameras worldwide in offices, shops, homes,car parks, the High Street. Not a single case of CCTV picking up anything "supernatural". So draw your own conclusions from that.
Wrong. There are zillions of CCTV weird/ghosts/UFOs/monsters/sprites/aliens etc videos. The problem is that it's easy to make a spoof video.Mr2Mike said:
Unless you have some evidence that CCTV has picked up genuine supernatural events, then he's not wrong.
The point is though, that they are there. It's up to you whether you believe in them or not, (I don't), but you can't use the argument that there aren't any.And if there actually was a real one, it would just look the same as all the ones on youtube....
Not many CCTV vids with eyewitness accounts to go with them though, you always seem to either get one or the other. funny that....
Edited by motorizer on Friday 19th May 10:50
cymtriks said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
CCTV is everywhere. Millions of cameras worldwide in offices, shops, homes,car parks, the High Street. Not a single case of CCTV picking up anything "supernatural". So draw your own conclusions from that.
Wrong. There are zillions of CCTV weird/ghosts/UFOs/monsters/sprites/aliens etc videos. The problem is that it's easy to make a spoof video.Are you counting actual movies in this? I saw a huge UFO destroy the empire state building in Independence Day so I sort of agree with you on that front.
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