When will we be able to go to the pub again?

[jakesmith]

Dog Star said:

Anyone remember this time about 50 or so weeks ago - everyone was thinking "yeah, we will be back up and running again by June or July" and putting their holidays back til August and September? Oh the naivety!

The number of people who thought we would be still in this sort of locked down state for 14 months would have been very small, and they'd have been derided as pessimistic fools.

I remember telling my wife that to be sensible we should write our entire year off to be honest

[Carrot]

jakesmith said:

Carrot said:

jakesmith said:

. In my opinion the public’s response to this has been abysmal, a total lack of realism, big picture thinking or responsibility taken, some shockingly selfish and ignorant behaviour.

.

You could say exactly the same thing about the Governments response...

I wouldn’t say the same. I’d say the government made incorrect and sometimes incompetent decisions in fast developing highly complex and novel situation, with an impossible task of balancing health and the economy, with a few individuals like Cummings being dheads as you’d expect.

Vs the public who have by contrast been given clear and simple instructions to follow (and financial support that many other countries can only dream of) and have visible broken them consistently out of a total disregard for the society that they are extremely fortunate to be a part of. That is far more malign in my view.

Clear and simple instructions?! Are you seriously posting that??

Don't wear a mask, makes no difference
Actually wear a mask, makes a huge difference suddenly
Don't go out
Eat out to Help out
Close all restaurants
Substantial meal
Exercise local area / not local area
Do go out, wait Don't go out
Masks are to protect you
Masks are to protect others
This is a killer virus that will kill your nan and everyone you know
This virus has a <1% mortality rate and actually isn't dangerous, but we will keep saying it is
You can exercise away from your home
We will arrest you from exercising away from your home
Schools are going back
Schools are not going back and suddenly you are home schooling
There will be no vaccine passports
We are trialling vaccine passports
There will be vaccine passports

I could go on but you probably get the idea.

It's fking ridiculous - there have been NO clear and simple instructions since the inception of this crisis... I can accept the first lockdown as we didn't know what we were dealing with but everything else has been utterly ridiculous, and a lot of it is simple bordering on child abuse now...

[jakesmith]

Life must be very difficult for you if you can’t see that:

- life isn’t perfect
- information used to make decisions changes
- the public mood needs to be considered in a free society to maintain public order
- As I’ve already told you the government has tried to balance the economy and health which is essentially always going to produce victims in both areas
- ‘the science’ is not a consolidated consensus that stays constant as a situation develops. It is a myriad of different views and models.

You strike me as the sort of person who would complain no matter what happens, making your experience of life very hard for yourself and others around you.

Suffice to say everything you’ve written above I disagree with half of it is complete nonsense.

Probably best to agree to disagree at this stage

[Carrot]

jakesmith said:

Life must be very difficult for you if you can’t see that:

- life isn’t perfect
- information used to make decisions changes
- the public mood needs to be considered in a free society to maintain public order
- As I’ve already told you the government has tried to balance the economy and health which is essentially always going to produce victims in both areas
- ‘the science’ is not a consolidated consensus that stays constant as a situation develops. It is a myriad of different views and models.

You strike me as the sort of person who would complain no matter what happens, making your experience of life very hard for yourself and others around you.

Suffice to say everything you’ve written above I disagree with half of it is complete nonsense.

Probably best to agree to disagree at this stage

Hang on, you are that John Lewis bloke from other threads?

Yep agreed, let's not discuss this any more

[jakesmith]

Carrot said:

jakesmith said:

Life must be very difficult for you if you can’t see that:

- life isn’t perfect
- information used to make decisions changes
- the public mood needs to be considered in a free society to maintain public order
- As I’ve already told you the government has tried to balance the economy and health which is essentially always going to produce victims in both areas
- ‘the science’ is not a consolidated consensus that stays constant as a situation develops. It is a myriad of different views and models.

You strike me as the sort of person who would complain no matter what happens, making your experience of life very hard for yourself and others around you.

Suffice to say everything you’ve written above I disagree with half of it is complete nonsense.

Probably best to agree to disagree at this stage

Hang on, you are that John Lewis bloke from other threads?

Yep agreed, let's not discuss this any more

You’re the one who believes a national retailer is doomed as it took two phone calls to sort a return out?
No wonder you can’t get your head around being given some basic instructions that change over the course of a year!!!

Sorry had I know it was you I’d have ignored you like how everyone else does! Take care and probably best you don’t try and use the kettle or anything LOL

[Carrot]

jakesmith said:

Carrot said:

jakesmith said:

Life must be very difficult for you if you can’t see that:

- life isn’t perfect
- information used to make decisions changes
- the public mood needs to be considered in a free society to maintain public order
- As I’ve already told you the government has tried to balance the economy and health which is essentially always going to produce victims in both areas
- ‘the science’ is not a consolidated consensus that stays constant as a situation develops. It is a myriad of different views and models.

You strike me as the sort of person who would complain no matter what happens, making your experience of life very hard for yourself and others around you.

Suffice to say everything you’ve written above I disagree with half of it is complete nonsense.

Probably best to agree to disagree at this stage

Hang on, you are that John Lewis bloke from other threads?

Yep agreed, let's not discuss this any more

You’re the one who believes a national retailer is doomed as it took two phone calls to sort a return out?
No wonder you can’t get your head around being given some basic instructions that change over the course of a year!!!

Sorry had I know it was you I’d have ignored you like how everyone else does! Take care and probably best you don’t try and use the kettle or anything LOL

I haven't purchased anything from JL in my life... wierdo...

[smartypants]

jakesmith said:

I think that’s deluded. They’re hardly an elite bunch of aristocrats any more, most of them are very ordinary looking and sounding people. It’s clear as day that people like going out and enjoying themselves.

Johnson was clear at every stage that they can release restrictions but it depends on the R level, I don’t see why it’s so hard to understand. Surely anyone with basic intelligence knows that when you make a commitment to anyone, you also caveat it with the terms under which that commitment can be met. Anyone with children knows this. In my opinion the public’s response to this has been abysmal, a total lack of realism, big picture thinking or responsibility taken, some shockingly selfish and ignorant behaviour.

There is no desire for control or lack of awareness from the government. They are just buying as much time as possible with the schedule for releasing restrictions so the immunisation of population is as advanced as possible as the pubs are a hard environment to enforce distancing in. The government just can’t get it right can they. Heavily criticised for opening up too soon last summer to try and help businesses. Now the same for what seems to me to be a more measured approach.

They really are, they have been institutionalised in their jobs. They are career politicians, there are very few proper critical thinkers in that cabinet, merely vote winners. They go to work every day, they still see their peers, they live in nice homes the bar in Westminster is still open. I really think people over think this whole issue, they are just people who live their lives and their opinions reflect how their lives are lived. Same as the scientists, there is no one there being altruistic.

The R level is a number that can be made up and manipulated through testing, you cannot use that as a basis to open and shut. Test more, especially the asymptomatic testing we're doing that the tests were not designed for, the R goes up. It's rudimentary guide as to whether the infections are rising or falling, but should not be used in such a microscopic manner in impinging people's freedoms and liberties.

I think the public response was exemplary in the beginning, people were locking down way before the lockdown was imposed, they were exhibiting normal behaviour traits. Unfortunately as lockdown went on way too long then as we came out ore bizarre restrictions were put in place, continued carrot dangling and removal has created a populatoin that is disjointed, weary and I imagine to some like you disobedient. Simply put though, common sense and seeing the bigger picture has been made impossible. As the bigger picture has been drawn and re-drawn time and time again. No one actually knows what the real aim is any more.

You never went to a pub or a gym then. "Safest" places you could be during the last year, the statistics back that up. But the two sectors hardest hit in restrictions. Sorry, you're talking out of your backside, with respect

[smartypants]

Carrot said:

Clear and simple instructions?! Are you seriously posting that??

Don't wear a mask, makes no difference
Actually wear a mask, makes a huge difference suddenly
Don't go out
Eat out to Help out
Close all restaurants
Substantial meal
Exercise local area / not local area
Do go out, wait Don't go out
Masks are to protect you
Masks are to protect others
This is a killer virus that will kill your nan and everyone you know
This virus has a <1% mortality rate and actually isn't dangerous, but we will keep saying it is
You can exercise away from your home
We will arrest you from exercising away from your home
Schools are going back
Schools are not going back and suddenly you are home schooling
There will be no vaccine passports
We are trialling vaccine passports
There will be vaccine passports

I could go on but you probably get the idea.

It's fking ridiculous - there have been NO clear and simple instructions since the inception of this crisis... I can accept the first lockdown as we didn't know what we were dealing with but everything else has been utterly ridiculous, and a lot of it is simple bordering on child abuse now...

Much more succinctly put. If people think the public now are behaving weirdly, then using jakesmiths words "if you have kids", if you disciplined them (or a dog for that matter) how the government has over the last year, you'd get feral children and rabid dogs.

[Lord Marylebone]

Can we just get back to this:

tonker said:

Surely no-one believes that they are going to open up hospitality and small shops when nth say they will. Let alone hotels and allow holidays.

It is just when, not if..... all their actions have shown is they’ll gaslight us. Lead us on. Make us believe it, then whip it away. It’s obvious.

jakesmith said:

You know on social media I'd just ignore that comment but you're an intelligent man so I have to ask - to what end? It is hardly making them popular or bolstering treasury tax take. It may all well get delayed but it will be through incompetence or circumstances, not deliberately to exercise 'control' surely.

Becuase that right there is really interesting.

Some people, not just Tonker, are making statements that claim that the government somehow want to delay hospitality/shops opening for reasons other than the virus, or that they want pubs to close down, or they want to somehow use the virus as an excuse to control us.

No one has managed to put forward any kind of a coherent argument as to why the government would want to do any of those things.

It makes absolutely no sense that they would deliberately annoy the public, bankrupt businesses, and decimate certain business sectors unless they believed they were doing it for reasons of public health.

In order to get voted back in, the government need popularity, public support, and businesses/employees to feel like they support them and trust them, otherwise it's game over and the other parties get a shot at running the country next time around.

We can argue all day as to whether they are are incompetent or being overly cautious with the medical data, but that isn't what we are talking about. Some are saying they are saying that they are deliberately gaslighting us, misleading us, and trying to keep us out of pubs, shops, holidays etc for some mysterious reason, and I do no believe that is true for one moment.

It is in the governments own interest to open everything back up as quickly as possible.

My view is this: The government fears bad press from people dying and hospitals being full more than they fear the bad press from businesses going bust and people losing jobs, so they are veering fairly heavily towards 'playing it safe' with regards to public health.

Edited by Lord Marylebone on Tuesday 2nd March 09:18

[jakesmith]

smartypants said:

Much more succinctly put. If people think the public now are behaving weirdly, then using jakesmiths words "if you have kids", if you disciplined them (or a dog for that matter) how the government has over the last year, you'd get feral children and rabid dogs.

Yet I have kids, and me and my family haven’t found dealing with this situation that difficult as we have a realistic outlook from the start rather than explicating ‘the government’ to do everything perfectly in a situation that is only partly controllable. If you think any government can do everything perfectly, control a huge diverse population and control a virus, of course you’re going to end up disappointed and angry.

Parenting rule 101 is to caveat everything as circumstances can change so you don’t underdeliver. I therefore maintain realistic expectations and avoid children screaming. I’ve seen the government do this time and again yet here we are on a thread with grown adults essentially screaming that their life was affected by a global pandemic.

[jakesmith]

smartypants said:

You never went to a pub or a gym then. "Safest" places you could be during the last year, the statistics back that up. But the two sectors hardest hit in restrictions. Sorry, you're talking out of your backside, with respect

Just going to pull this up. ‘Statistics back that up’, how? Those types of businesses were shut for most of the last year. Where is the control population, how was that tested. I can’t see how anyone could possibly reach that conclusion but happy to be wrong.

You may be right but to me it appears to be hopelessly wishful thinking from someone who is angry that they couldn’t go to the pub and an example of ‘confirmation bias’ that people naturally see everywhere when some fleeting piece of ‘evidence’ or a homespun theory appears to superficially support their often unfounded opinion, and they are incapable of, or too lazy to examine if their own opinions are supported by facts.

[SCEtoAUX]

I still find it impossible to believe that with deaths at a low level and dropping, positive tests doing the same, hospitalisations at 1/3rd of peak and 20 million vaccinated it is still illegal to visit your neighbour in their garden.

And as for pubs not being able to properly open until at least late June, I find myself questioning the Government's motives at every level.

Well before that date in June we could easily be at single figure deaths per day, certainly low double digits, and positive tests in the few hundreds. These are simply not figures that can possibly warrant the duration involved.

[jakesmith]

SCEtoAUX said:

I still find it impossible to believe that with deaths at a low level and dropping, positive tests doing the same, hospitalisations at 1/3rd of peak and 20 million vaccinated it is still illegal to visit your neighbour in their garden.

And as for pubs not being able to properly open until at least late June, I find myself questioning the Government's motives at every level.

Well before that date in June we could easily be at single figure deaths per day, certainly low double digits, and positive tests in the few hundreds. These are simply not figures that can possibly warrant the duration involved.

Please please please explain what your ideas are around potential malign government intentions for delaying pub opening, and even more importantly, why they are doing it and how you think it will benefit them or in fact anyone. Should be good for a laugh!

[Leon R]

The very long delays to re opening feels like an attempt to make up for what happened last year.

Seems a bit backwards but can't really blame them after the omni shambles of Autumn and Winter 2020.

[Elatino1]

Dog Star said:

Anyone remember this time about 50 or so weeks ago - everyone was thinking "yeah, we will be back up and running again by June or July" and putting their holidays back til August and September? Oh the naivety!

The number of people who thought we would be still in this sort of locked down state for 14 months would have been very small, and they'd have been derided as pessimistic fools.

I did put my holiday back to August last year and did go to the Nürburgring for a week. So what was naive about that?

[Uggers]

Elatino1 said:

I did put my holiday back to August last year and did go to the Nürburgring for a week. So what was naive about that?

Excellent good for you. You were fully aware this was going to go on for 18months and took the chances of going for it because of that?

Not everyone can just change dates and work around delayed holidays. A lot of people had to cancel completely hoping to book again later in the year. Then there was the opening and closing of travel corridors which didn't exactly encourage you to book anything. If a corridor could be closed with a few days notice.

I was travelling through airports all the time with work last summer, even the hubs seemed to be at 30-40% of what they usually are. A lot of people didn't do a holiday abroad last year.

I was one of the naive, just like probably most of us that it would be done and dusted by Summer 2020 and normality returns. Very wrong on that one.

[Elatino1]

Well I certainly wouldn't have wanted to get on a plane at the height of a pandemic (still wouldn't) but didn't see much harm in an 8hr drive isolated in a car.

It's just the sweeping statement that anyone that went away or wanted to go away was somehow naive.

[bad company]

Elatino1 said:

Well I certainly wouldn't have wanted to get on a plane at the height of a pandemic (still wouldn't) but didn't see much harm in an 8hr drive isolated in a car.

It's just the sweeping statement that anyone that went away or wanted to go away was somehow naive.

We did 2 driving holidays last year. No problems at all as with just 2 of us in the car very low risk.

[Carrot]

bad company said:

Elatino1 said:

Well I certainly wouldn't have wanted to get on a plane at the height of a pandemic (still wouldn't) but didn't see much harm in an 8hr drive isolated in a car.

It's just the sweeping statement that anyone that went away or wanted to go away was somehow naive.

We did 2 driving holidays last year. No problems at all as with just 2 of us in the car very low risk.

Surely the further you are away from the NHS, the less risk you are of swamping them so it should be encoraged?

[RMDB9]

smartypants said:

the bar in Westminster is still open.

https://www.parliament.uk/site-information/foi/foi-and-eir/commons-foi-disclosures/catering-services-retail/closure-of-facilities-2020/