Ghosts

[so called]

Faust66 said:

so called said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

so called said:

On another occasion, in ca., 2006, I had been on a business trip in North America.
Every day a meeting in a different city, evening flights, late dinners and very long hours.
Got to my next hotel, too my room at around 12:45 am.
Absolutely knackered, I couldn't wait to get to bed.
I lay down, pulling the covers over and resting my head on this wonderful pillow.
As the comfort came over me, a child's voice right behind me said, " Hello", and I felt the side of the mattress compress as if someone was leaning against it.
WTF, were the unspoken words as I managed to slide horizontally down the bed until my head was under the covers.

Edited by so called on Thursday 28th May 12:08

As you said....absolutely knackered. That would explain it. You might as well have said "having taken the LSD" or "having finished off the 3rd bottle of wine." Humans are unreliable. More so when they are very tired.

Yes, cant argue, I was knackered.
When I look back, most of my experiences have required me to be horizontal.
Still, it was a very real experience, the voice and the movement of the bed, as with the experience with one of my brothers.

I like the fact that your body reacts instinctively to these situations.
Increased senses, hairs standing etc.
Where does that instinct come from in mans historical development?
Sabre Tooth Tiger in the dark at the mouth of the cave maybe?
All I know is that I wasn't going to turn over in bed to be nose to nose with some ghostly child apparition.

Let’s say it was a ghost.

Ghosts have no physical presence or mass (they’ve been referred to as a ‘footprint on time’ IIRC).

So if ghosts have no weight/mass, how did the mattress compress as you describe?



I’d like to ‘believe’ in ghosts. I’d like to believe that there is some of consciousness that carries on after our physical presence has gone (i.e. you die) but sadly I’m a bit too rational for that. Show me some actual evidence and I’ll consider it/believe… until then it’s just a superstition as far as I’m concerned. And that’s fair enough… whatever gets you through the night.

If people believe in ghosts I’m not going to mock them, in the same way that I try (not always successfully!) not to mock religious beliefs. The difference being that no-one – to the best of my knowledge – has been burnt alive, crucified, blown up, tortured or similar for believing in ghosts. Sadly you can’t say that about all superstitions.

So if ghosts have no weight/mass, how did the mattress compress as you describe?

And that's the point.
Apart from the voice right behind my head, the fact that I felt the mattress compress was a very physical confirmation of....something!.
Before I dived into bed, I'd been in the bathroom to clean my teeth so I knew there was no one else in the hotel room.

[Roofless Toothless]

Esceptico said:

Roofless Toothless said:

With respect Twig, we perceive only what it is possible for a human being to perceive, and know only what is possible for a human mind to know. Outside that, we know nothing, or even how much more there is to perceive/know. I haven't got a clue what that might have to do with ghosts, however.

Not sure what you mean. We can’t perceive gravitational waves but we were able to postulate their existence then build a machine to detect them. There may be other phenomena that we don’t know about because we can’t perceive them but they don’t involve the supernatural nor couldn’t be understood. Our knowledge has increased exponentially in the past two centuries and even things we don’t intuitively understand (quantum physics) we can explain with maths and make predictions. I’m fairly confident that there are no phenomena that can’t be described by maths given that everything we have come across so far can be.

I think you are looking at this as too much of a scientific/mathematical premise, whereas in fact it is more philosophical. The nature of knowledge, what it is possible to know, has been explored by the line of philosophers from Descartes onwards, through Spinoza and Kant, to Schopenhauer. We understand the universe, for instance, as three dimensional because we, as observers, function in three dimensions. We have no knowledge of those parts of infinity that might operate with other dimensional systems. The observer and the observed are closely linked.

There is a book I return to over and over again that explains this, though I struggle with it. It is The Anthropic Cosmological Principle by John Barrow and Frank Tipler (OUP, 1986).

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Saying that ghosts have no weight or mass is like saying the 30th of February is always wet. It doesn't exist, it's been made up, it can be whatever you want it to be.

[conkerman]

so called said:

So if ghosts have no weight/mass, how did the mattress compress as you describe?

And that's the point.
Apart from the voice right behind my head, the fact that I felt the mattress compress was a very physical confirmation of....something!.
Before I dived into bed, I'd been in the bathroom to clean my teeth so I knew there was no one else in the hotel room.

Feelings of Sinking into the mattress and movement are not uncommon when falling asleep. Ally this to the strange stuff that can happen when around sleep.

Then further compound this to how peripheral vision is pretty much created by our brains, rather than what is really there.

I do love the sinking into the mattress feeling it's awesome.

But it isn't ghosts/Aliens, it never is. Until it verifiably is.

[anonymous-user]

paulguitar said:

When I was 10 I thought I saw my dad on a ski slope in Austria. I was so convinced I actually started to head towards him.

My dad was alive and well at the time, back in the UK. What I'd seen was a guy who looked just like my dad. That's all.

That's the most sane and sensible answer and is probably what happened in this case. The thing that made it odd was the style of clothes; these weren't what was in style in 1987; they were very much of my dad from the late 70s/early 80s. I'm not suggesting that that means in was definitely a ghost but the coincidence extended down the to type of clothes as well, not just the physical characteristics.

[julian64]

I think ghosts exist, but in a scientific way, not that shown by the media

[so called]

conkerman said:

so called said:

So if ghosts have no weight/mass, how did the mattress compress as you describe?

And that's the point.
Apart from the voice right behind my head, the fact that I felt the mattress compress was a very physical confirmation of....something!.
Before I dived into bed, I'd been in the bathroom to clean my teeth so I knew there was no one else in the hotel room.

Feelings of Sinking into the mattress and movement are not uncommon when falling asleep. Ally this to the strange stuff that can happen when around sleep.

Then further compound this to how peripheral vision is pretty much created by our brains, rather than what is really there.

I do love the sinking into the mattress feeling it's awesome.

But it isn't ghosts/Aliens, it never is. Until it verifiably is.

The very nice feeling of sinking into the mattress is not the same as when someone leans against the side of the mattress, which is what I felt.
I'm pretty sure my fat gut has a connection with sinking into the mattress.
I think that we all know the difference.
Peripheral vision was not involved.

[anonymous-user]

From ghosts to mediums... anybody willing to share an experience? Preferably from the one-on-one encounters, not the theatrics of the stage ones where the net is cast so wide they can't fail.

I'll get the ball rolling. I'd heard interesting stories from friends and friends of friends about a local medium. Some went looking for answers, the others were quite skeptical but came away impressed. It piqued my interest and after discussing it at work I 'volunteered' myself to go. I had no agenda other than to report what it was like.

It turned out to be uncanny in places. I have no idea how she knew about some of the stuff she was saying. I gave nothing away to prompt her and there is no information online about me that would have been relevant or useful - and she didn't say anything about what little is on Facebook et al. anyway.

As with ghosts, I remain on the fence.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

DrSteveBrule said:

From ghosts to mediums... anybody willing to share an experience? Preferably from the one-on-one encounters, not the theatrics of the stage ones where the net is cast so wide they can't fail.

She told me I would soon be coming into money and that night I shagged a girl called Penny.

[julian64]

DrSteveBrule said:

From ghosts to mediums... anybody willing to share an experience? Preferably from the one-on-one encounters, not the theatrics of the stage ones where the net is cast so wide they can't fail.
As with ghosts, I remain on the fence.

But you aren't on the fence.

[HustleRussell]

conkerman said:

so called said:

So if ghosts have no weight/mass, how did the mattress compress as you describe?

And that's the point.
Apart from the voice right behind my head, the fact that I felt the mattress compress was a very physical confirmation of....something!.
Before I dived into bed, I'd been in the bathroom to clean my teeth so I knew there was no one else in the hotel room.

Feelings of Sinking into the mattress and movement are not uncommon when falling asleep. Ally this to the strange stuff that can happen when around sleep.

I have experienced that sensation as described during episodes of sleep paralysis. Crazy what your brain does when it thinks you're not looking!

[Ritchie335is]

Sleep paralysis can probably explain a few strange experiences when in bed.
I used to get it occasionally and although I didn't see any ghosts, I could have sworn some people were in my house and saw them passing the bedroom door and I found it terrifying.

[Quhet]

For some reason I'm perfectly happy to keep an 'open mind' about ghosts but think that mediums are complete con artists and prey on the vulnerable. Thinking about it, there should be no reason why I shouldn't keep an 'open mind' about them too, but i don't. Humans are funny

[Plymo]

Ritchie335is said:

Sleep paralysis can probably explain a few strange experiences when in bed.
I used to get it occasionally and although I didn't see any ghosts, I could have sworn some people were in my house and saw them passing the bedroom door and I found it terrifying.

Yeah it's nuts! I've not had anything "scary" as such from it, but I try to talk and can't move my mouth or make any actual sounds, and can't roll over.
It's very weird but luckily not frightening when I get it.
It could certainly explain a lot of ghost stories and there's theories about it being the cause of legends of vampires, succubus, demons and that sort of thing

[xjay1337]

Ritchie335is said:

Sleep paralysis can probably explain a few strange experiences when in bed.
I used to get it occasionally and although I didn't see any ghosts, I could have sworn some people were in my house and saw them passing the bedroom door and I found it terrifying.

I had that as a child. Very odd. I would get it in the mornings, I'd wake up around 5am and put on the early morning kiddy TV before school. I'd be dozing in and out of sleep and then panic that I'm missing a programme or something.

Then I'd roll over and like tense up, very odd feeling. Couldn't speak or move, but I could blink and breathe normally.
After around 5-10 minutes I slowly eased up and could move more and more. Never ever had it as an adult.

[Mr-B]

DrSteveBrule said:

From ghosts to mediums... anybody willing to share an experience? Preferably from the one-on-one encounters, not the theatrics of the stage ones where the net is cast so wide they can't fail.

I'll get the ball rolling. I'd heard interesting stories from friends and friends of friends about a local medium. Some went looking for answers, the others were quite skeptical but came away impressed. It piqued my interest and after discussing it at work I 'volunteered' myself to go. I had no agenda other than to report what it was like.

It turned out to be uncanny in places. I have no idea how she knew about some of the stuff she was saying. I gave nothing away to prompt her and there is no information online about me that would have been relevant or useful - and she didn't say anything about what little is on Facebook et al. anyway.

As with ghosts, I remain on the fence.

Derren Brown did something on this years ago basically showing all mediums are scams, it's just cold reading and he did a demonstration where he cold read people in an audience and told them he was not a medium and didn't proclaim to be one yet he came up with facts and all sorts with no prior knowledge of the individuals. If you have good cold reading skills you don't need t research anyone's facebook or linked in account.

[so called]

HustleRussell said:

conkerman said:

so called said:

So if ghosts have no weight/mass, how did the mattress compress as you describe?

And that's the point.
Apart from the voice right behind my head, the fact that I felt the mattress compress was a very physical confirmation of....something!.
Before I dived into bed, I'd been in the bathroom to clean my teeth so I knew there was no one else in the hotel room.

Feelings of Sinking into the mattress and movement are not uncommon when falling asleep. Ally this to the strange stuff that can happen when around sleep.

I have experienced that sensation as described during episodes of sleep paralysis. Crazy what your brain does when it thinks you're not looking!

I have experienced sleep paralysis many years ago. 48 years ago to be exact.
Been in bed about 5 minutes when It suddenly felt very cold and I found that I couldn't move.
Then the spooky bit happened when a voice in my left ear said, "You will die when your 48 years old",
By then I was having visions of a Zulu warrior running straight at me and had the pain and feeling in my stomach as his spear pushed in to me.
As it passed, I realized I was soaked in sweat.
Didn't sleep well that night.

The 46 years old prediction stayed with me up to my 46th birthday.
I was on a business trip in the US and told my US colleague about it.
"Right", he said, "We're going to exercise this spirit", which involved a late night at the hotel bar and a lot of the other kind of spirits.

Very strange but very true.

[Ritchie335is]

so called said:

I was having visions of a Zulu warrior running straight at me

I get that after a night on the sauce.
I soon realised it was the Wife.

[anonymous-user]

xjay1337 said:

Ritchie335is said:

Sleep paralysis can probably explain a few strange experiences when in bed.
I used to get it occasionally and although I didn't see any ghosts, I could have sworn some people were in my house and saw them passing the bedroom door and I found it terrifying.

I had that as a child. Very odd. I would get it in the mornings, I'd wake up around 5am and put on the early morning kiddy TV before school. I'd be dozing in and out of sleep and then panic that I'm missing a programme or something.

Then I'd roll over and like tense up, very odd feeling. Couldn't speak or move, but I could blink and breathe normally.
After around 5-10 minutes I slowly eased up and could move more and more. Never ever had it as an adult.

Used to be called the Night Hag in old times

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_hag

[Ayahuasca]

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

xjay1337 said:

Ritchie335is said:

Sleep paralysis can probably explain a few strange experiences when in bed.
I used to get it occasionally and although I didn't see any ghosts, I could have sworn some people were in my house and saw them passing the bedroom door and I found it terrifying.

I had that as a child. Very odd. I would get it in the mornings, I'd wake up around 5am and put on the early morning kiddy TV before school. I'd be dozing in and out of sleep and then panic that I'm missing a programme or something.

Then I'd roll over and like tense up, very odd feeling. Couldn't speak or move, but I could blink and breathe normally.
After around 5-10 minutes I slowly eased up and could move more and more. Never ever had it as an adult.

Used to be called the Night Hag in old times

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_hag

How do we know that sleep paralysis is not caused by ghosts?