Things you always wanted to know the answer to [Vol. 5]

[psi310398]

hidetheelephants said:

It is just theatre, in the UK you're bound by the OSA when you learn secret things regardless of having signed a small piece of paper.

I was told, when first invited to sign the document, that it was part theatre and part precaution, because it removed any possibility of using the absence of intent (the mens rea bit) as a basis for a defence to a charge under the Act.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

psi310398 said:

hidetheelephants said:

It is just theatre, in the UK you're bound by the OSA when you learn secret things regardless of having signed a small piece of paper.

I was told, when first invited to sign the document, that it was part theatre and part precaution, because it removed any possibility of using the absence of intent (the mens rea bit) as a basis for a defence to a charge under the Act.

Pretty much. You are bound by the OSA whether you sign it or not, but signing it removes any leg you may have thought that you had to stand on. Which, incidentally, you didn't have.

Think of it more as a reminder. Or a piece of paper that confirms that you know.

Having said that, if you refused to sign it you would probably not be allowed anywhere near anything that required you to be bound by the OSA.

[Pit Pony]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

psi310398 said:

hidetheelephants said:

It is just theatre, in the UK you're bound by the OSA when you learn secret things regardless of having signed a small piece of paper.

I was told, when first invited to sign the document, that it was part theatre and part precaution, because it removed any possibility of using the absence of intent (the mens rea bit) as a basis for a defence to a charge under the Act.

Pretty much. You are bound by the OSA whether you sign it or not, but signing it removes any leg you may have thought that you had to stand on. Which, incidentally, you didn't have.

Think of it more as a reminder. Or a piece of paper that confirms that you know.

Having said that, if you refused to sign it you would probably not be allowed anywhere near anything that required you to be bound by the OSA.

I've lost count how many times I've signed it.
At least 8.
Once got escorted off an aerospace site, which was a sister company to the site I worked at, because my HR/security department, hadn't got me SC cleared or signing the OSA before sending me to ask for costing type questions.
I had to find something else to do for 3 weeks.
A colleague, got escorted off another site during the first gulf War, because for 2 weeks, he'd managed to drive straight through security, park in the employees car park, follow someone through 3 electronicly operated doors, without a security pass, and up to the design office, whereas, i was waiting in reception for our minder to come and escort me to our work area.

[48k]

In the first exhibition at Bletchley Park, just after the entrance desks, they have on the walls various quotes from people who used to work there.
One of them is from a chap who says something along the lines of "I thank you for the invitation to talk about my time at Bletchley Park but I signed the Official Secrets Act and will never discuss the work I did."
among all the other quotes on the wall it stood out to me as something so terribly British.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Pit Pony said:

I've lost count how many times I've signed it.
At least 8.
Once got escorted off an aerospace site, which was a sister company to the site I worked at, because my HR/security department, hadn't got me SC cleared or signing the OSA before sending me to ask for costing type questions.
I had to find something else to do for 3 weeks.
A colleague, got escorted off another site during the first gulf War, because for 2 weeks, he'd managed to drive straight through security, park in the employees car park, follow someone through 3 electronicly operated doors, without a security pass, and up to the design office, whereas, i was waiting in reception for our minder to come and escort me to our work area.

In fairness, being bound by the OSA and having SC vetting (or higher) are two different things. At my current client, their Security Officer was happy for me to just sign the OSA but they do not wish to sponsor me to resurrect my SC clearance. It just means that I can effectively only see Company Confidential stuff and am kept away from stuff that is actually secret. Although there is talk of resurrecting my SC as it could be useful to them.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

48k said:

In the first exhibition at Bletchley Park, just after the entrance desks, they have on the walls various quotes from people who used to work there.
One of them is from a chap who says something along the lines of "I thank you for the invitation to talk about my time at Bletchley Park but I signed the Official Secrets Act and will never discuss the work I did."
among all the other quotes on the wall it stood out to me as something so terribly British.

The irony is that a lot of important historical information is dying (literally) due to such people taking their experiences to the grave, given that the need for secrecy is often no longer there.

My grandmother died before I found out she had been involved with Bletchley Park. It would have been fascinating to talk to her about it, given that I have a professional interest.

[48k]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

48k said:

In the first exhibition at Bletchley Park, just after the entrance desks, they have on the walls various quotes from people who used to work there.
One of them is from a chap who says something along the lines of "I thank you for the invitation to talk about my time at Bletchley Park but I signed the Official Secrets Act and will never discuss the work I did."
among all the other quotes on the wall it stood out to me as something so terribly British.

The irony is that a lot of important historical information is dying (literally) due to such people taking their experiences to the grave, given that the need for secrecy is often no longer there.

My grandmother died before I found out she had been involved with Bletchley Park. It would have been fascinating to talk to her about it, given that I have a professional interest.

Indeed, it was quite an ironic quote given that if everybody else had have said the same, there wouldn't be most if not all of the exhibits there.

Sorry to hear about your grandmother its a truly fascinating place I go a few times a year.

[RizzoTheRat]

FredericRobinson said:

Signing the Official Secrets Act, does it make any difference or is it all theatre to make a point?

It’s not like you will get away with something because you haven’t signed the Act is it? Would someone who has signed get a heavier sentence than someone who hasn’t?

Technically nobody actually signs the official secrets act, you sign a declaration form to say you've been notified that you will see stuff that's covered by it and it's an offence to disclose it. However people who haven't been notified and signed are still covered by parts of it, but I think possibly not all of it.


ETA: I wondered myself and looked the last bit up, it looks like that was only pre 1989, and it now covers everyone, but there are differences for the unsigned on whether or not it's considered "damaging".

Edited by RizzoTheRat on Tuesday 30th April 21:57

[Clockwork Cupcake]

RizzoTheRat said:

Technically nobody actually signs the official secrets act, you sign a declaration form to say you've been notified that you will see stuff that's covered by it and it's an offence to disclose it.

Indeed. A much more succinct way of putting it than I (and others) did.

[Trustmeimadoctor]

Is there anywhere you can see why a film was given the rating if was and when it was last updated?

[Doofus]

hidetheelephants said:

FredericRobinson said:

Signing the Official Secrets Act, does it make any difference or is it all theatre to make a point?

It’s not like you will get away with something because you haven’t signed the Act is it? Would someone who has signed get a heavier sentence than someone who hasn’t?

It is just theatre, in the UK you're bound by the OSA when you learn secret things regardless of having signed a small piece of paper.

It's not just theatre. It's acknowledgement of your understanding of the requirements, restrictions and consequences. It removes the "I didn't know it was a secret" defence.

[StevieBee]

Trustmeimadoctor said:

Is there anywhere you can see why a film was given the rating if was and when it was last updated?

This is the criteria that's applied: https://www.bbfc.co.uk/about-classification

Not certain if there's any published reasoning on a film-by-film basis but there is it will be on that site somewhere.

[FMOB]

StevieBee said:

Trustmeimadoctor said:

Is there anywhere you can see why a film was given the rating if was and when it was last updated?

This is the criteria that's applied: https://www.bbfc.co.uk/about-classification

Not certain if there's any published reasoning on a film-by-film basis but there is it will be on that site somewhere.

Indeed but how did Natasha 'spangles' Kaplinsky go from presenting the news to being president of the BBFC?

[Cotty]

Trustmeimadoctor said:

Is there anywhere you can see why a film was given the rating if was and when it was last updated?

Not sure if this is exactly what you want. If you pick a film on IMDB and select All Topics then Parents Guide it shows the rating in each country and the reason. I picked Pulp Fiction and the MPAA reason given for the R rating is "strong graphic violence and drug use, pervasive strong language and some sexuality"
Have a look https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110912/parentalguide...

Edited by Cotty on Tuesday 30th April 23:33

[98elise]

Doofus said:

hidetheelephants said:

FredericRobinson said:

Signing the Official Secrets Act, does it make any difference or is it all theatre to make a point?

It’s not like you will get away with something because you haven’t signed the Act is it? Would someone who has signed get a heavier sentence than someone who hasn’t?

It is just theatre, in the UK you're bound by the OSA when you learn secret things regardless of having signed a small piece of paper.

It's not just theatre. It's acknowledgement of your understanding of the requirements, restrictions and consequences. It removes the "I didn't know it was a secret" defence.

I agree it's not theater. It's making sure people know that they are now in an environment where knowledge might be sensitive and can't be openly discussed. It removes ambiguity and makes you more aware of what you can an cannot say.

[beagrizzly]

Cotty said:

Trustmeimadoctor said:

Is there anywhere you can see why a film was given the rating if was and when it was last updated?

Not sure if this is exactly what you want. If you pick a film on IMDB and select All Topics then Parents Guide it shows the rating in each country and the reason. I picked Pulp Fiction and the MPAA reason given for the R rating is "strong graphic violence and drug use, pervasive strong language and some sexuality"
Have a look https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110912/parentalguide...

Edited by Cotty on Tuesday 30th April 23:33

Reminds me of a story I was told recently, might be apocryphal. Apparently a film maker, annoyed with the BBFC following previous dealings, made a 7 hour film of paint drying, simply because someone at BBFC would have to sit through it all to give it the correct rating.

[StevieBee]

98elise said:

Doofus said:

hidetheelephants said:

FredericRobinson said:

Signing the Official Secrets Act, does it make any difference or is it all theatre to make a point?

It’s not like you will get away with something because you haven’t signed the Act is it? Would someone who has signed get a heavier sentence than someone who hasn’t?

It is just theatre, in the UK you're bound by the OSA when you learn secret things regardless of having signed a small piece of paper.

It's not just theatre. It's acknowledgement of your understanding of the requirements, restrictions and consequences. It removes the "I didn't know it was a secret" defence.

I agree it's not theater. It's making sure people know that they are now in an environment where knowledge might be sensitive and can't be openly discussed. It removes ambiguity and makes you more aware of what you can an cannot say.

Indeed. It is a very serious undertaking and those who breach it are subject to exceptionally harsh punishment. I believe I'm right in thinking that there is no upper limit of prison term that can be applied if found guilty.

Have a read up on a bloke called David Shayler (or Delores as he's now known!).

[Trustmeimadoctor]

Cotty said:

Trustmeimadoctor said:

Is there anywhere you can see why a film was given the rating if was and when it was last updated?

Not sure if this is exactly what you want. If you pick a film on IMDB and select All Topics then Parents Guide it shows the rating in each country and the reason. I picked Pulp Fiction and the MPAA reason given for the R rating is "strong graphic violence and drug use, pervasive strong language and some sexuality"
Have a look https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110912/parentalguide...

Edited by Cotty on Tuesday 30th April 23:33

On the bbfc site you can search for all films and see when ratings were updated and why things were categorised

It was after watching temple of doom again the other night
I had never noticed how many nipples there were in there

It gets marked as having Harrison ford having chest on show

But not of kate capshaw sat in a puddle sopping wet in a white shirt with nothing on under it

And got me thinking did they only review it on VHS and a 14"portable so couldn't see the hd goodness we get now and nope seems not as the rating has been reviewed several times and changed from Pg to 12a quite recently

[eldar]

Trustmeimadoctor said:

Cotty said:

Trustmeimadoctor said:

Is there anywhere you can see why a film was given the rating if was and when it was last updated?

Not sure if this is exactly what you want. If you pick a film on IMDB and select All Topics then Parents Guide it shows the rating in each country and the reason. I picked Pulp Fiction and the MPAA reason given for the R rating is "strong graphic violence and drug use, pervasive strong language and some sexuality"
Have a look https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110912/parentalguide...

Edited by Cotty on Tuesday 30th April 23:33

On the bbfc site you can search for all films and see when ratings were updated and why things were categorised

It was after watching temple of doom again the other night
I had never noticed how many nipples there were in there

It gets marked as having Harrison ford having chest on show

But not of kate capshaw sat in a puddle sopping wet in a white shirt with nothing on under it

And got me thinking did they only review it on VHS and a 14"portable so couldn't see the hd goodness we get now and nope seems not as the rating has been reviewed several times and changed from Pg to 12a quite recently

Busy people, the BBFC. Who knew letting kiddies watch Mary Popping had that degree of hazard.

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-684023...

[Clockwork Cupcake]

StevieBee said:

Have a read up on a bloke called David Shayler (or Delores as he's now known!).

"She", surely?