Protein absorption
Discussion
So, I was wondering- I often hear that if you take in to much protein at one time (usually more than 30-40 grams is the figure stated) you don't absorb it and piss it out. I also read that some protein (eg casein) is slow absorbing..... by this logic could you not have 40g of 'fast' protein and another 40 of 'slow' at the same time and get the benefit of them both?
If not, why not. Also- what is 'one sitting' classed as, what's the time period between these 'sittings'?
If not, why not. Also- what is 'one sitting' classed as, what's the time period between these 'sittings'?
I know about which ones are fast and slow but don't know the details as to how it works.... if some one has 80g of blend (double the suggested dose), is the whey absorbed first and the casein later or is only 40g of it absorbed in total? And if only 40g is absorbed in total, then what is the point in a blend in the first place (unless the 40g absorbed is 50/50 mix- which raises the question of why not 40g of whey rather than a blend)?
LordGrover said:
I have no idea if it relates specifically to whey protein type products, but I seem to remember it takes 2-3 hours to digest a small meal. That is the reason often given for not eating more than 6-7 meals a day anyway. May well be just gym/bro science though.
It is exactly that,.......'broscience'. It is gym myth that the body can only utilize 20-30g in one feeding. It also depends a great deal on the circumstances of the individual who is consuming the protein. The dosage is likely far closer to the entire day's maximal protein requirement, which again, depends on the individual.The body is far more efficient than we give it credit for.
Maxymillion said:
It is exactly that,.......'broscience'. It is gym myth that the body can only utilize 20-30g in one feeding. It also depends a great deal on the circumstances of the individual who is consuming the protein. The dosage is likely far closer to the entire day's maximal protein requirement, which again, depends on the individual.
The body is far more efficient than we give it credit for.
These were my thoughts- that you'd basically absorb most of what you ate, to a limit. Also that blends were possibly a bit of a marketing ploy.The body is far more efficient than we give it credit for.
I know the science of studies debate this subject but my personal belief watching pro's train and consume massively more protein than normal 500-900g per day is that as people grow larger or have a greater need from the training will also most likely absorb more. I personally have read the counter arguments but do not believe we all can only absorb 30g of protein in a sitting.
I personally believe as you grow bigger or damage more muscles your body will need to absorb more.
I personally believe as you grow bigger or damage more muscles your body will need to absorb more.
Edited by Ordinary_Chap on Monday 23 July 20:27
Ordinary_Chap said:
I know the science of studies debate this subject but my personal belief watching pro's train and consume massively more protein than normal 500-900g per day is that as people grow larger or have a greater need from the training will also most likely absorb more. I personally have read the counter arguments but do not believe we all can only absorb 30g of protein in a sitting.
I personally believe as you grow bigger or damage more muscles your body will absorb more.
Right. A 140lb endurance athlete has different protein requirements to a 200lb strength athlete. I personally believe as you grow bigger or damage more muscles your body will absorb more.
The only argument I would put forward for the use of casein as well as something like whey would be on grounds of satiety only, not on results produced. Theres alot to be said about the psychological effects of that though...
There are two issues here. How fast you can absorb protein from your gut, and how fast your liver can digest the absorbed protein. These vary from person to person, and tend to increase as you eat more protein (the body is good at adapting like that).
This research paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16779921 has a lot of info on protein metabolism.
On the first point they suggest that the rate of absorption from the gut ranges from 1.3-10 g/hour which is presumably where all the X amount in one sitting stuff comes from. The absorption rate seems to vary with the type of protein - milk protein averaged 3.5 g/h while eggs were 2.9 g/h and 1.4 g/h for cooked and raw respectively. Interesting to note that cooked eggs are more quickly absorbed, but not that surprising. They also compared whey isolate and casein isolate and came up with average rates of 8-10 g/h and 6.1 g/h respectively. Seems casein is slower, but not by much relative to whey.
There was not much study of how much absorption of protein adapts to high protein diets, but the rates there suggest eating more than ~160g/day is pointless, at least initially, as it will just go straight through. People getting a lot of bloating and wind on protein shakes are probably over-consuming protein - undigested protein will be broken down in the colon by bacteria, which produces gas, and thus wind.
On the second point there is a limit of how much protein the liver can digest, that doesn't increase linearly with gains in body mass (the factor given is mass to the power 0.75). So if you double your weight your ability to metabolise protein only goes up by about 68%. For a typical 80kg person it reckons on a maximum protein intake of 285g per day, which is more than most diets recommend.
These numbers seem to be for a typical person, i.e. someone who has had a normal diet and begins eating a lot of protein. People eating significantly more protein than this per day will cause their liver to adapt and produce more enzymes for the digestion of protein, so will be able to cope with a larger protein load.
A few other interesting snippets:
"In healthy adult men consuming small frequent meals providing protein at 2.5 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1, there was a decreased protein breakdown, and increased protein synthesis of up to 63%, compared with intakes of 1g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1"
"Adequate dietary carbohydrate during exercise is thus critical, because its availability is inversely related to the rate of exercise protein catabolism"
"While high protein diets have focused on protein and its value in building lean muscle and preventing protein breakdown, it is vitally important for athletes to understand that high protein consumption at the expense of sufficient amounts of carbohydrate can be potentially detrimental to lean muscle."
"Based upon the current limited evidence available, the authors would speculate that 25% energy as protein is a safe and viable level for the general public and athletes to both assist with weight control and maintain (or improve) lean body mass."
This research paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16779921 has a lot of info on protein metabolism.
On the first point they suggest that the rate of absorption from the gut ranges from 1.3-10 g/hour which is presumably where all the X amount in one sitting stuff comes from. The absorption rate seems to vary with the type of protein - milk protein averaged 3.5 g/h while eggs were 2.9 g/h and 1.4 g/h for cooked and raw respectively. Interesting to note that cooked eggs are more quickly absorbed, but not that surprising. They also compared whey isolate and casein isolate and came up with average rates of 8-10 g/h and 6.1 g/h respectively. Seems casein is slower, but not by much relative to whey.
There was not much study of how much absorption of protein adapts to high protein diets, but the rates there suggest eating more than ~160g/day is pointless, at least initially, as it will just go straight through. People getting a lot of bloating and wind on protein shakes are probably over-consuming protein - undigested protein will be broken down in the colon by bacteria, which produces gas, and thus wind.
On the second point there is a limit of how much protein the liver can digest, that doesn't increase linearly with gains in body mass (the factor given is mass to the power 0.75). So if you double your weight your ability to metabolise protein only goes up by about 68%. For a typical 80kg person it reckons on a maximum protein intake of 285g per day, which is more than most diets recommend.
These numbers seem to be for a typical person, i.e. someone who has had a normal diet and begins eating a lot of protein. People eating significantly more protein than this per day will cause their liver to adapt and produce more enzymes for the digestion of protein, so will be able to cope with a larger protein load.
A few other interesting snippets:
"In healthy adult men consuming small frequent meals providing protein at 2.5 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1, there was a decreased protein breakdown, and increased protein synthesis of up to 63%, compared with intakes of 1g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1"
"Adequate dietary carbohydrate during exercise is thus critical, because its availability is inversely related to the rate of exercise protein catabolism"
"While high protein diets have focused on protein and its value in building lean muscle and preventing protein breakdown, it is vitally important for athletes to understand that high protein consumption at the expense of sufficient amounts of carbohydrate can be potentially detrimental to lean muscle."
"Based upon the current limited evidence available, the authors would speculate that 25% energy as protein is a safe and viable level for the general public and athletes to both assist with weight control and maintain (or improve) lean body mass."
Flibble said:
A few other interesting snippets:
"In healthy adult men consuming small frequent meals providing protein at 2.5 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1, there was a decreased protein breakdown, and increased protein synthesis of up to 63%, compared with intakes of 1g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1"
Should I read that as 2.5g per kg (bodyweight) per day and 1g per kg (bodyweight) per day?"In healthy adult men consuming small frequent meals providing protein at 2.5 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1, there was a decreased protein breakdown, and increased protein synthesis of up to 63%, compared with intakes of 1g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1"
Interesting stuff. So is what I'm currently doing pretty pointless:
On way home from work 4.30 - Protein + oats shake (30g protein) good energy source prior to workout
5.30-6.30ish workout
6.30ish - Hurricane X protein shake + banana (30g protein)
7.30-8ish - Evening meal - steak or salmon etc (40-50g protein)
That is around 110g of protein in the space of 3 - 3.5 hours
Will then have a protein shake before bed of around 30g protein
On way home from work 4.30 - Protein + oats shake (30g protein) good energy source prior to workout
5.30-6.30ish workout
6.30ish - Hurricane X protein shake + banana (30g protein)
7.30-8ish - Evening meal - steak or salmon etc (40-50g protein)
That is around 110g of protein in the space of 3 - 3.5 hours
Will then have a protein shake before bed of around 30g protein
on one forum i post on they are going wild about how much protein you should actually have. (alot less than supported by protein manufacturers)
I get 200 grams a day in me from lean meats and shakes tbh its probably to much (im 182lbs).
There are reports saying you need less than 0.7grams per lbs lean mass.
I think just take what you feel like everything over a certain amount its just a bonus (or a waste!). Jay cutler was eating like 150 egg whites a day or something for competition!
I get 200 grams a day in me from lean meats and shakes tbh its probably to much (im 182lbs).
There are reports saying you need less than 0.7grams per lbs lean mass.
I think just take what you feel like everything over a certain amount its just a bonus (or a waste!). Jay cutler was eating like 150 egg whites a day or something for competition!
So much broscience everywhere. Frequency of protein intake does not matter. You can eat your whole day's allocation of protein in one meal and absorb it just fine. Don't read too much into it. Also, don't buy into all the crap about needing so much protein to gain muscle/strength. Its all garbage unless you're on prodigious amounts of AAS. I used to religiously eat 200g+/day but in the last few months I've dropped it to around 90-120g depending and noticed NO ill effects other than enjoying food a lot more within a certain calorie limit. I'm 5'10" and around 180lbs @12% so more muscle than most yet still it doesn't matter.
HonestIago said:
So much broscience everywhere. Frequency of protein intake does not matter. You can eat your whole day's allocation of protein in one meal and absorb it just fine. Don't read too much into it. Also, don't buy into all the crap about needing a high protein intake. Its all garbage unless you're on prodigious amounts of AAS. I used to religiously eat 200g+/day but in the last few months I've dropped it to around 90-120g depending and noticed NO ill effects other than enjoying food a lot more within a certain calorie limit. I'm 5'10" and around 180lbs @12%.
funny, i'd been at 90-120g for years, last 2 years i've upped it to 220 a day (split over 6-7 meals as absorption is better for me) and gained. same weight but leaner so have gained muscle, in my 40s too, 5'10" 220lb 12%everyones different, maybe the division for absorption is placebo but it works better for me
BenM77 said:
@Honestlago
Did you drop your protein intake for any particular reason ? Have you stopped talking protein shakes ?
Not really, other than realising that I could save a lot of money and enjoy more "normal" non-bodybuilding type foods if I ate less protein. I also moved home from uni so have less control of my meals. I still use protein shakes but that's because I typically eat only one proper meal per day and shakes are quick/cheap/convenient.Did you drop your protein intake for any particular reason ? Have you stopped talking protein shakes ?
For example I normally train about 4 or 5pm and eat the following:
Pre-training: 1 scoop whey and 5g fish oil
Post-training (and after my 15mins cardio): 1 scoop whey and 40-50g sugary cereal in a shaker (or a banana)
Dinner at home (whatever Mum makes!) normally something like steak with boiled potatoes and roast vegetables or a chicken curry/spaghetti bolognese etc (always a big portion and often have seconds!) I then have half a tub of ice cream or some cake/chocolate/homemade pudding/whatever I fancy that we have in.
I have been eating these foods pretty much every training day (4-5x/week) with a small approximate calorie deficit and am leaning out nicely. I realise I've strayed slightly from the topic but this is without doubt the easiest approach to eating/training/dieting and being in good shape while still indulging! Now that routine fasting is a habit of well over a year I almost never get hungry, I just drink a lot of coffee and tea through the day. Would recommend!
Sorry another edit: If I know I'll be going out for dinner or especially over-indulging I'll forget the shakes and just have some BCAAs pre-workout.
Edited by HonestIago on Tuesday 24th July 15:04
In terms of protein requirements for athletes, there is a study that is about to begin in New Zealand examining this in very fine detail. A friend of mine is participating in it and I think it will shed a bit more light on it.
For now though, when it comes to strength athletes, like most things, it depends on the individual.....
If there is a calorie deficit, to the point where the athletes lbm is under threat, then a level up to 1.5g per pound of bodyweight is considered fine.
If there is a calorific surplus, then a level of 1g per pound of bodyweight is deemed sufficient for muscular gains.
Anything in between these two numbers will depend on the athletes body composition, his/her training style, training experience, as well as personal preference and psychological factors such as desired meal frequency and satiety.
If the athlete is 'assisted' chemically-speaking, then the above number is more like 2g per pound of bodyweight.
For now though, when it comes to strength athletes, like most things, it depends on the individual.....
If there is a calorie deficit, to the point where the athletes lbm is under threat, then a level up to 1.5g per pound of bodyweight is considered fine.
If there is a calorific surplus, then a level of 1g per pound of bodyweight is deemed sufficient for muscular gains.
Anything in between these two numbers will depend on the athletes body composition, his/her training style, training experience, as well as personal preference and psychological factors such as desired meal frequency and satiety.
If the athlete is 'assisted' chemically-speaking, then the above number is more like 2g per pound of bodyweight.
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