Protein absorption

[BenM77]

HonestIago said:

BenM77 said:

@Honestlago

Did you drop your protein intake for any particular reason ? Have you stopped talking protein shakes ?

Not really, other than realising that I could save a lot of money and enjoy more "normal" non-bodybuilding type foods if I ate less protein. I also moved home from uni so have less control of my meals. I still use protein shakes but that's because I typically eat only one proper meal per day and shakes are quick/cheap/convenient.

For example I normally train about 4 or 5pm and eat the following:

Pre-training: 1 scoop whey and 5g fish oil

Post-training (and after my 15mins cardio): 1 scoop whey and 40-50g sugary cereal in a shaker (or a banana)

Dinner at home (whatever Mum makes!) normally something like steak with boiled potatoes and roast vegetables or a chicken curry/spaghetti bolognese etc (always a big portion and often have seconds!) I then have half a tub of ice cream or some cake/chocolate/homemade pudding/whatever I fancy that we have in.

I have been eating these foods pretty much every training day (4-5x/week) with a small approximate calorie deficit and am leaning out nicely. I realise I've strayed slightly from the topic but this is without doubt the easiest approach to eating/training/dieting and being in good shape while still indulging! Now that routine fasting is a habit of well over a year I almost never get hungry, I just drink a lot of coffee and tea through the day. Would recommend!

Edited by HonestIago on Tuesday 24th July 14:58

Edited by HonestIago on Tuesday 24th July 14:58

Edited by HonestIago on Tuesday 24th July 14:59

Edited by HonestIago on Tuesday 24th July 15:00

Interesting stuff !

Eating nice food whilst still getting lean has to be a bonus, also a lot easier than 5-6 meals per day. It is also nicer to eat and feel full than to pick through the day IMO.

[HonestIago]

Pvapour said:

HonestIago said:

So much broscience everywhere. Frequency of protein intake does not matter. You can eat your whole day's allocation of protein in one meal and absorb it just fine. Don't read too much into it. Also, don't buy into all the crap about needing a high protein intake. Its all garbage unless you're on prodigious amounts of AAS. I used to religiously eat 200g+/day but in the last few months I've dropped it to around 90-120g depending and noticed NO ill effects other than enjoying food a lot more within a certain calorie limit. I'm 5'10" and around 180lbs @12%.

funny, i'd been at 90-120g for years, last 2 years i've upped it to 220 a day (split over 6-7 meals as absorption is better for me) and gained. same weight but leaner so have gained muscle, in my 40s too, 5'10" 220lb 12%

everyones different, maybe the division for absorption is placebo but it works better for me

Glad you've found an approach that works. You may find you're leaner because you've reduced carbs (and thus ad-lib insulin spikes)and not because you've had more protein. Controlling insulin is the most important factor in getting leaner IMO. Timing of carbs can really influence body composition. I explained my approach in a post above.

[didelydoo]

Pvapour said:

funny, i'd been at 90-120g for years, last 2 years i've upped it to 220 a day (split over 6-7 meals as absorption is better for me) and gained. same weight but leaner so have gained muscle, in my 40s too, 5'10" 220lb 12%

everyones different, maybe the division for absorption is placebo but it works better for me

I also find upping protein (a lot) helps gains. I assume that excess that isn't used for muscle building will just be used for energy anyway. I guess you can't realy go wrong with high protein, better to have too much than not enough.

[HonestIago]

didelydoo said:

I also find upping protein (a lot) helps gains. I assume that excess that isn't used for muscle building will just be used for energy anyway. I guess you can't realy go wrong with high protein, better to have too much than not enough.

There is a lot to be said for increasing protein intake, but ultimately the body down-regulates it. So someone who is used to eating 100g/day will benefit in the short term from doubling their intake but beyond that the benefits are less certain.

I'm tempted to experiment with a few weeks of <50g protein and then increase to 150-200g/day to see if I can notice this for myself.

[Pvapour]

HonestIago said:

Pvapour said:

HonestIago said:

So much broscience everywhere. Frequency of protein intake does not matter. You can eat your whole day's allocation of protein in one meal and absorb it just fine. Don't read too much into it. Also, don't buy into all the crap about needing a high protein intake. Its all garbage unless you're on prodigious amounts of AAS. I used to religiously eat 200g+/day but in the last few months I've dropped it to around 90-120g depending and noticed NO ill effects other than enjoying food a lot more within a certain calorie limit. I'm 5'10" and around 180lbs @12%.

funny, i'd been at 90-120g for years, last 2 years i've upped it to 220 a day (split over 6-7 meals as absorption is better for me) and gained. same weight but leaner so have gained muscle, in my 40s too, 5'10" 220lb 12%

everyones different, maybe the division for absorption is placebo but it works better for me

Glad you've found an approach that works. You may find you're leaner because you've reduced carbs (and thus ad-lib insulin spikes)and not because you've had more protein. Controlling insulin is the most important factor in getting leaner IMO. Timing of carbs can really influence body composition. I explained my approach in a post above.

quite right & a big part of the change, i played with carb/prot/fat ratio & found i was very sensitive to carbs so my final ratio is quite low on the carbs side, also, eating (the harder to digest protein) with every carb intake slowed the uptake of carbs which reduced insulin spike which keeps my appetite in check.

[fatpasty]

BenM77 said:

HonestIago said:

BenM77 said:

@Honestlago

Did you drop your protein intake for any particular reason ? Have you stopped talking protein shakes ?

Not really, other than realising that I could save a lot of money and enjoy more "normal" non-bodybuilding type foods if I ate less protein. I also moved home from uni so have less control of my meals. I still use protein shakes but that's because I typically eat only one proper meal per day and shakes are quick/cheap/convenient.

For example I normally train about 4 or 5pm and eat the following:

Pre-training: 1 scoop whey and 5g fish oil

Post-training (and after my 15mins cardio): 1 scoop whey and 40-50g sugary cereal in a shaker (or a banana)

Dinner at home (whatever Mum makes!) normally something like steak with boiled potatoes and roast vegetables or a chicken curry/spaghetti bolognese etc (always a big portion and often have seconds!) I then have half a tub of ice cream or some cake/chocolate/homemade pudding/whatever I fancy that we have in.

I have been eating these foods pretty much every training day (4-5x/week) with a small approximate calorie deficit and am leaning out nicely. I realise I've strayed slightly from the topic but this is without doubt the easiest approach to eating/training/dieting and being in good shape while still indulging! Now that routine fasting is a habit of well over a year I almost never get hungry, I just drink a lot of coffee and tea through the day. Would recommend!

Edited by HonestIago on Tuesday 24th July 14:58

Edited by HonestIago on Tuesday 24th July 14:58

Edited by HonestIago on Tuesday 24th July 14:59

Edited by HonestIago on Tuesday 24th July 15:00

Interesting stuff !

Eating nice food whilst still getting lean has to be a bonus, also a lot easier than 5-6 meals per day. It is also nicer to eat and feel full than to pick through the day IMO.

If I ate like that I would ballon massively! Just looking at a big meal I seem to put on weight.

[mattikake]

Cool thread. I actually wished I wasn't p!ssed for maybe the 2nd time in my life.

In short, the solution is to up your protein intake until you start to drop stinking kitten-killing farts, then you know you're at your *personal* max. Lower it a bit and retest every month or so as you get bigger/smaller (as your requirements change).

Protein uptake should be determined by your ability to break it down - pepsin, trypsin in stomach, duodenum etc. - and your ability to absorb it - the size and efficiency of your small intestine. Whether this changes as your uptake requiremens do, is a question I think no-one has been able to conslusively/officially answer... although naturalistic science should suggest it does. (remembers arguments with lecturers about a 50Kg weakling v a 90Kg powerhouse's protein uptake needs and abilities)

which reminds me, 34.5g per day is official science. Anything else is bro science. However, the designation has nothing to do with what is actually true.

Oh and if testing personal protein uptake limits, don't take your date to the cinema, take her on a parachute jump.

[Flibble]

LordGrover said:

Should I read that as 2.5g per kg (bodyweight) per day and 1g per kg (bodyweight) per day?

Yes, formatting doesn't carry too well from the pdf to forum alas. That works out as a recommended 1.14 g/lb of protein for those who work in mixed units BTW, which is quite similar to what many people have said already.

I thought the bit about super low carbs was interesting as incredibly low carb diets are sometimes advocated and would appear to be not that great. Keeping at least 35% of your calories from carbs seems like a good idea (and that's already a very low carb diet).

A few more interesting things from that paper on the subject of insulin:

"It has been reported in the scientific literature however for well over 30 y that ingestion of carbohydrate-free protein meals such as beef and casein can promote a prompt and substantial rise in plasma insulin."

"Despite similar glucose contents, peak insulin concentrations (occurring at the 20th minute) were two and four times higher after ingestion of both pea protein hydrolysate and whey protein hydrolysates than after milk protein solution and glucose solutions respectively."

"Recently an insulin index of foods has been established which unexpectedly demonstrates that 1000 kJ of fish protein (~ 60 g) elicits a greater peak insulin level than 1000 kJ of white pasta (~ 60 g)."

The reference for the insulin index of foods mentioned there can be found here: http://www.ajcn.org/content/66/5/1264
I've had a quick flick through that paper as well...

"However, protein-rich foods and bakery products (rich in fat and refined carbohydrate) elicited insulin responses that were disproportionately higher than their glycemic responses."

Something to note here is that they're talking about the insulin response relative to the amount of glucose in the food. As most protein rich foods have very little glucose you would think there'd be almost no insulin response, but there is instead a significant response seen.

However the overall blood insulin level is still lower with protein rich foods than with carbohydrate rich foods. Beef for instance, on a weight for weight basis has half the insulin response of white bread. So a high protein, low refined carbs diet still gives more stable insulin levels than a diet high in refined carbs.

It is worth noting though that both white and brown pasta gave a lower insulin response than fish, beef or cheese, so completely cutting carbs to reduce insulin spikes is not necessary - careful selection of carb rich foods can achieve the same effect. The things to stay away from are bread (white and wholemeal) and potatoes in particular, which cause an insulin response similar to that of a mars bar. Rice is fairly good, with brown being better than white, fibre rich breakfast cereals such as porridge, all-bran and muesli also gave a low insulin response.

Also, for most foods the insulin response and blood glucose are well correlated, however there are a few foods which gave much higher blood glucose than the insulin response would indicate, rice was one of these, while beef and cheese gave an insulin response much higher than blood glucose levels would indicate (as noted above).

[HonestIago]

fatpasty said:

If I ate like that I would ballon massively! Just looking at a big meal I seem to put on weight.

You're overlooking the fact that I fast all day normally 18-20hrs before eating like that. If you did the same and then consumed 2,000-2,500 calories (a lot of food) in one meal I guarantee you would not balloon. You would however enjoy food more, regulate appetite better, increase insulin sensitivity, improve energy and mental focus AND save hours in your day not thinking about, preparing or eating food. There are literally no downsides other than adaption to fasting which may take a few weeks of self-discipline beyond which it would be a piece of cake!

[fatpasty]

HonestIago said:

You're overlooking the fact that I fast all day normally 18-20hrs before eating like that. If you did the same and then consumed 2,000-2,500 calories (a lot of food) in one meal I guarantee you would not balloon. You would however enjoy food more, regulate appetite better, increase insulin sensitivity, improve energy and mental focus AND save hours in your day not thinking about, preparing or eating food. There are literally no downsides other than adaption to fasting which may take a few weeks of self-discipline beyond which it would be a piece of cake!

I read about fasting a little while ago. Couldn't really get my head around it. But I suppose it makes a little more sense now. Glad it's working for you. Sounds a good thing to do. May try it one day.