I know people keep saying that there are a lot of unsold..

I know people keep saying that there are a lot of unsold..

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ravon

599 posts

281 months

Tuesday 13th December 2011
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Dear Mr.Pits, nobody said it wasn't a good engine, but it is an obsolete one, and I'm assuming based on my knowledge of what an obsolete but brand new Ford Zetec can be bought for through the trade, a very small number of hundreds, then Lotus have probably done an amazing deal on the obsolete Toyota engine, making that part of the car very inexpensive to themselves. Nothing more than excellent value engineering. But selling such a package at similar prices to thoroughbred cars appears to not wash with the car buying public as the sales figures attest . A non-Lotus engine was never an issue with the Elise/Exige price point, but it clearly is with Evora .

I was getting quite excited, as clearly it's not going to be long before Evora used prices start with a two in front of them, which will really make them something of a bargain until someone said to me last night, have you seen what Cayman S are bringing secondhand, they start with a one in front these days, which to my simple old mind is spectacularly cheap.

PS Did you ever find out definitively if these units were specially modified for Lotus ?

Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Tuesday 13th December 2011
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ravon said:
A non-Lotus engine was never an issue with the Elise/Exige price point, but it clearly is with Evora .
You can't really focus on that specific issue and claim it's the sole (or even major) cause for slow sales. You might obsess over it, but it seems clear from reading the endless discussions about the Evora that there isn't a single problem people have with the car, the dealers or the manufacturer.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Tuesday 13th December 2011
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Tuna said:
ravon said:
A non-Lotus engine was never an issue with the Elise/Exige price point, but it clearly is with Evora .
You can't really focus on that specific issue and claim it's the sole (or even major) cause for slow sales. You might obsess over it, but it seems clear from reading the endless discussions about the Evora that there isn't a single problem people have with the car, the dealers or the manufacturer.
very true, it's often a complex issue.

My take on it is a question of it's the wrong car at the wrong price in the wrong market combines with a global recession.

by that I mean the design is too compromised to make the marketing mans 2+2 work with a mid-engined layout, it then has been pitched at too high a price (against it's obvious rivals) and without a clear 'winning' punch to carry said premium price.

it's also not helped by the historical issues of build quality and backup/warrente/support (undoubtedly these are getting better, but still have a long way to go to match the market they are trying to sell into).

As has been said, at the original Elise money nobody expects a bespoke engine & drive-train, but when your looking at £50K+ cars, then this is expected (or at least the use of a drive-train with pedigree)

IMHO the Evora's design lacked clear vision of the end goal, they tried to make it too multi-purpose, I honestly think the M250 concept was a better proposition, the 2+2 thing had killed it.

The Pits

4,289 posts

239 months

Tuesday 13th December 2011
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You may be surprised to know that I agree with most of that Scuffers!

The Evora was undoubtedly inspired by most popular, most profitable sports car of all, the 911. On paper the numbers are irresistable and in the absence of 'gut instinct' saying otherwise most company directors would choose to follow the car that would appear to have best read the market right. That is where the 2+2 thing came from for sure. That and the market research that said that most Exige/Elise owners tend to move onto, you guessed it, the 911. Perfectly reasonable logic then that Lotus should offer a car with similar usability and broad appeal for people who already like the Lotus brand.

However the reasons for the 911's sales success are as complex as the Evora's lack of success. I agree that a Lotus would have to be better than a 911 to stand a chance. To me it is but clearly to most it is not. Again priorities would suggest that stuff like build quality is a higher priority than driving dynamics. Stick within the high limits of grip that the 911 has (as 99% of 911 owners do) and the rear engine issues don't even enter into it. Hence something that should be a huge negative just isn't to most people. Again this is one area the Lotus could be argued to be objectively better and it's not impressing buyers because they don't identify it as a weakness in the first place.

Lotus needs to push against open doors and if you're after the 911 you don't get many to choose from. I think the most effective one is styling. The M250 has passed its sell by date now but at the time it caused a sensation. The Evora is more conservatively styled, in order to attract 911 buyers, who clearly like their cars to be conservatively styled. The further north of £30k you go, the more emotional a decision buying a car becomes. Styling is number 1 for generating the desire and emotion you can't sell cars at £50+ without.


Mikeyboy

5,018 posts

234 months

Wednesday 14th December 2011
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The Pits said:
Lotus needs to push against open doors and if you're after the 911 you don't get many to choose from. I think the most effective one is styling. The M250 has passed its sell by date now but at the time it caused a sensation. The Evora is more conservatively styled, in order to attract 911 buyers, who clearly like their cars to be conservatively styled. The further north of £30k you go, the more emotional a decision buying a car becomes. Styling is number 1 for generating the desire and emotion you can't sell cars at £50+ without.
I think there is more truth in the styling argument for the lack of success than most people think.
the cars that have had the omost success against the 911 are cars that have traded first on their looks and second on their dynamics.
Aston is probably a company that compares better to Lotus than my other initial thought the Audi R8.
They were exclusive/rare, they hadn't a brilliant reputation for build quality and were not seen as players in the market segment that the 911 dominates.
So how did they get around this. They produced a car (the Vantage)that initially was a match or close to a match as the 911 of the time. OK this would get them a few sales, but as Mr Pits says the average byer really couldn't care less.
The thing that sold this car was the looks. The car simply looked so much better than the 911 that those who would normally have wavered over buying the same car as their neighbour saw a great looking car that gave them everything they wanted bar the extra 2 seats.

The Evora doesn't do that. It doesn't scream look at me I'm classy and stylish. It screams look at me, I smell of petrol and wear jackets with elbow patches.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Wednesday 14th December 2011
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Mikeyboy said:
I think there is more truth in the styling argument for the lack of success than most people think.
the cars that have had the omost success against the 911 are cars that have traded first on their looks and second on their dynamics.
Aston is probably a company that compares better to Lotus than my other initial thought the Audi R8.
They were exclusive/rare, they hadn't a brilliant reputation for build quality and were not seen as players in the market segment that the 911 dominates.
So how did they get around this. They produced a car (the Vantage)that initially was a match or close to a match as the 911 of the time. OK this would get them a few sales, but as Mr Pits says the average byer really couldn't care less.
The thing that sold this car was the looks. The car simply looked so much better than the 911 that those who would normally have wavered over buying the same car as their neighbour saw a great looking car that gave them everything they wanted bar the extra 2 seats.

The Evora doesn't do that. It doesn't scream look at me I'm classy and stylish. It screams look at me, I smell of petrol and wear jackets with elbow patches.
Kin hell!

I actually agree with you! (makes note in diary!)

your spot on style wise, Aston make a look all their own, and credit to them for doing so.

if you take that argument further, look at the number of cars these days that are very much a styling excersise as opposed to engineering, the Fiat 500, VW beetle, etc etc. all about style, rather than the functions of a car.

other end of the marker, Zonda, what else looks like that? who cares if it's not as fast as a XYZ?

Thorburn

2,398 posts

192 months

Wednesday 14th December 2011
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Scuffers said:
if you take that argument further, look at the number of cars these days that are very much a styling excersise as opposed to engineering, the Fiat 500, VW beetle, etc etc. all about style, rather than the functions of a car.

other end of the marker, Zonda, what else looks like that? who cares if it's not as fast as a XYZ?
Certainly helps that these days there are very few genuinely BAD cars. Even if you buy something that the journalists don't particularly rate it's still likely to be something perfectly serviceable and cars which now some people call cars 'slow' would have beaten supercars away from the lights 30 years ago.

You can choose style over substance and still get a good car. Hell the Evo review of the DB9 was pretty scathing in terms of dynamics from what I recall but it didn't seem to affect sales.

Mikeyboy

5,018 posts

234 months

Wednesday 14th December 2011
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Scuffers said:
Kin hell!

I actually agree with you! (makes note in diary!)

your spot on style wise, Aston make a look all their own, and credit to them for doing so.

if you take that argument further, look at the number of cars these days that are very much a styling excersise as opposed to engineering, the Fiat 500, VW beetle, etc etc. all about style, rather than the functions of a car.

other end of the marker, Zonda, what else looks like that? who cares if it's not as fast as a XYZ?
I make sense sometimes. Its not very often but it does happen occasionally.
Its often overlooked on PH because we are all nominally petrolheads, but most people buy a car on looks first, saftey or practicality second and a long way down the list, how it drives.

So styling exercises will do better than great drivers cars that look like the designer thought about the shape over a drunken lunch.

Edited for one obvious typo. I just can't see my mistakes on the white background

Edited by Mikeyboy on Wednesday 14th December 16:02

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Wednesday 14th December 2011
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Mikeyboy said:
I make sense sometimes. Its not very often but it does happen occasionally.
Its often overlooked on PH because we are all nominally petrolheads, but most people buy a car on looks first, saftey or practicality second and a long way down the lost, how it drives.

So styling exercises will do better than great drivers cars that look like the designer thought about the shape over a drunken lunch.
yup, problem here is that you can over-design a car (personally, I think the current Elise is borderline here, the S1 is very clean/simple).

there are some truly ugly cars that sell on their looks being 'quirky', which then seperates them for the euro-blandness of their counterparts.

I am not a fan of the Evora's look, as I have said before, the M250, dated though it is, is a better proportioned car, and I like the proportions of the new Ginetta (old farbound), although some of the detail is a bit odd...

Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Wednesday 14th December 2011
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It's depressing that the current Astons are such great looking cars but get criticised for being dynamically poor.

Personally in photos the GTE front end makes a big (and positive) difference to the Evora - it suits it to look unashamedly modern rather than trying for a slight generically classic air. In person, the car has always seemed very sensitive to colour - block colours just don't seem to suit it. It's good to see Lotus are prepared to evolve the model and from some of the mock ups I'm very keen to see how it looks as a drop-top.

donna180

627 posts

160 months

Wednesday 14th December 2011
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Tuna said:
It's depressing that the current Astons are such great looking cars but get criticised for being dynamically poor.

Personally in photos the GTE front end makes a big (and positive) difference to the Evora - it suits it to look unashamedly modern rather than trying for a slight generically classic air. In person, the car has always seemed very sensitive to colour - block colours just don't seem to suit it. It's good to see Lotus are prepared to evolve the model and from some of the mock ups I'm very keen to see how it looks as a drop-top.
Do they - I thought the Vantage V12, DBS, Rapide all got good reviews..... Where are the bad reviews?

Agree GTE front end makes a difference - it's the front that doesn't "fit" on the standard Evora.

And agree with Scuffers on the M250 - looked great.

Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Wednesday 14th December 2011
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donna180 said:
Do they - I thought the Vantage V12, DBS, Rapide all got good reviews..... Where are the bad reviews?

Agree GTE front end makes a difference - it's the front that doesn't "fit" on the standard Evora.

And agree with Scuffers on the M250 - looked great.
Maybe I worded it wrong - the Astons have reviewed well, but just don't come across as driver's cars. Probably just my prejudices there.

The irony with the M250 was it looked fantastic in photos and had real presence in person - but the packaging just didn't work. For a car that was far more imposing than the Elise, the space was not there where it was needed.

jackal

11,248 posts

281 months

Wednesday 14th December 2011
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If you look at pictures of the M250 now it looks rubbish.


doggydave

329 posts

174 months

Thursday 15th December 2011
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I've come to this topic late. Just as you are all putting your handbags away i'm pleased to say. Getting back to the engine issue. I am no mechanic or expert in anyway. But I am representitive of the buying public. I know what I like and I buy it. Does it really matter which enigine is in the Evora or V6 Exige. As long as it is reliable and goes well. The Camry engine may be obsolete but does that matter as long as it works in the two packages. I have an uncle who was a longtime Lotus Cortina owner in the 70s. A Lotus fan through and through. When he saw my S2 Exige he couldn,t belive how good it was. When I told him it was powered by a Toyota engine he stated that reliability wont be a problem then. I don't think the engine has been the Evoras problem its been the Lotus influences. Eg. interiors, gearchanges etc.

doggydave

329 posts

174 months

Thursday 15th December 2011
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jackal said:
If you look at pictures of the M250 now it looks rubbish.
You must be joking. It looks fabulous imo.

jackal

11,248 posts

281 months

Thursday 15th December 2011
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doggydave said:
jackal said:
If you look at pictures of the M250 now it looks rubbish.
You must be joking. It looks fabulous imo.
The back still cuts it but the front (esp. the two long 90 degree creases and the general 4 sided Box shape) looks hideous and totally ungainly. The evora looks better at the front and the back.



Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Thursday 15th December 2011
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It seems to me that after the Elise used the classic Lotus front end shapes to such good effect, both the M250 and Evora suffered from problems bringing a very retro, rounded 'mouth' into a modern structure. It was the weakest part of the M250 and probably the Evora too. Again, the fact that they've sharpened it up in their new 'design language' seems a vast improvement, and pays off in the GTE.

jackal

11,248 posts

281 months

Thursday 15th December 2011
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Tuna said:
It seems to me that after the Elise used the classic Lotus front end shapes to such good effect, both the M250 and Evora suffered from problems bringing a very retro, rounded 'mouth' into a modern structure. It was the weakest part of the M250 and probably the Evora too. Again, the fact that they've sharpened it up in their new 'design language' seems a vast improvement, and pays off in the GTE.
the front corners, esp. the pieces above the arches on the S2 have always been the weakest part of the elise/exige for me

the evora front is great IMO and I like the fact that it is soft and gentle (the lights let it down a bit though) ... gives it some class rather than all this trackday aggressive malarky and suits the nature of the car

doggydave

329 posts

174 months

Thursday 15th December 2011
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jackal said:
The back still cuts it but the front (esp. the two long 90 degree creases and the general 4 sided Box shape) looks hideous and totally ungainly. The evora looks better at the front and the back.


Agreed, it does look a bit dated with those sharp angles. i still like it though.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Thursday 15th December 2011
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doggydave said:
jackal said:
The back still cuts it but the front (esp. the two long 90 degree creases and the general 4 sided Box shape) looks hideous and totally ungainly. The evora looks better at the front and the back.


Agreed, it does look a bit dated with those sharp angles. i still like it though.
I sort of agree, never was a fan of the angularity of them all...

my liking of it is more to do with it's proportions and stance rather than the detail, the rear quarters are about spot on, whereas I find the Evora too clumsy/fat