Evora v 911

[The Pits]

Evora S is due in September at the Paris motorshow.

Lotus have an opportunity to make something truly special with the S, I hope they don't hold back.

I totally share the view about the the Elise/Exige being something very special to drive. I've been lucky enough to drive quite a few faster and more expensive cars and I've been asked before what my favourite car to drive was and I'll still say the Elise. There are many faster cars, more exciting cars, more luxurious cars, cars that are better for showing off in/impressing other people, but taking pure driving pleasure as the only criteria the Elise comes out on top.

As a result I'm in a constant state of flux between wanting to keep my Elise and trading it in for an Exige Cup 260.

[justin220]

Biggest problem with the Lotus cars is they make every other car feel utterly average and disconnected! Very nearly ruined TVR ownership for me! ha!

As for the Evora S, I am looking forward to seeing how Lotus price it, and think if they offer a SC option to existing owners, I'll probably look into it. I'm more interested in the roadster though (if/when it arrives).

[footsoldier]

The Pits said:

Evora S is due in September at the Paris motorshow.

Lotus have an opportunity to make something truly special with the S, I hope they don't hold back.

I totally share the view about the the Elise/Exige being something very special to drive. I've been lucky enough to drive quite a few faster and more expensive cars and I've been asked before what my favourite car to drive was and I'll still say the Elise. There are many faster cars, more exciting cars, more luxurious cars, cars that are better for showing off in/impressing other people, but taking pure driving pleasure as the only criteria the Elise comes out on top.

As a result I'm in a constant state of flux between wanting to keep my Elise and trading it in for an Exige Cup 260.

Wait for the V6 exige which is rumoured for Paris, with 300bhp

[Park'O]

Lamborghini Gallardo or Nissan GTR.....

[justin220]

Park'O said:

Lamborghini Gallardo or Nissan GTR.....

Neither. I've owned one, and drove the other.

[Redlake27]

I'm eager to get an Evora at some point, swapping my Europa and Alfa for one car, but can't justify the price until they depreciate a bit more.

I'm wondering if a £30K 5 year old 997 C2S (or an M3 V8) would be a good stop gap until the Evora drops to a similar price level.

I've driven Evora on road and track (superb, connected, supple and agile) , and Cayman S on road (95% of the Lotus to drive, but felt more 'durable' as an ownership proposition).

However, I couldn't love the Cayman, so the 911C2S feedback from those who have driven the Evora would be interesting.

[RobM77]

Redlake27 said:

I'm eager to get an Evora at some point, swapping my Europa and Alfa for one car, but can't justify the price until they depreciate a bit more.

I'm wondering if a £30K 5 year old 997 C2S (or an M3 V8) would be a good stop gap until the Evora drops to a similar price level.

I've driven Evora on road and track (superb, connected, supple and agile) , and Cayman S on road (95% of the Lotus to drive, but felt more 'durable' as an ownership proposition).

However, I couldn't love the Cayman, so the 911C2S feedback from those who have driven the Evora would be interesting.

I'm afraid I haven't driven a 997C2S and Evora, but I have driven two Cayman Ss on test drives of fair length, own an Elise and have passengered in an Evora, and am interested in your comment that the Cayman was "95% of the Lotus to drive". I felt that the balance and CofG height of the Cayman was better (which is obvious, because the engine's in the middle and on the floor in a Cayman, as opposed to at the back and poking through the boot lid in an Evora), but from the passenger seat the ride and composure of the Evora seemed to be in a different league to me (all down to very clever spring and damper tuning; the roll of an Evora is less than an Elise per lat g, and felt similar to a Cayman to me, yet the ride is much better - magic!), and the steering feel of the Cayman was non existent, and I'm guessing the Evora is very good indeed. What were you judging your 95% on?

[Stu_00]

justin220 said:

Park'O said:

Lamborghini Gallardo or Nissan GTR.....

Neither. I've owned one, and drove the other.

The only thing that would get me excited is Gallardo Balboni

GTR - really does not hit the spot for me, Over weight fast in a straight line but lacking a certain ....something...

[The Pits]

attractive styling?

[justin220]

Stu_00 said:

justin220 said:

Park'O said:

Lamborghini Gallardo or Nissan GTR.....

Neither. I've owned one, and drove the other.

The only thing that would get me excited is Gallardo Balboni

GTR - really does not hit the spot for me, Over weight fast in a straight line but lacking a certain ....something...

Character, soul, drama, excitement?

[RobM77]

justin220 said:

Stu_00 said:

justin220 said:

Park'O said:

Lamborghini Gallardo or Nissan GTR.....

Neither. I've owned one, and drove the other.

The only thing that would get me excited is Gallardo Balboni

GTR - really does not hit the spot for me, Over weight fast in a straight line but lacking a certain ....something...

Character, soul, drama, excitement?

rear wheel drive?
a sub 1400kg kerb weight?

[manlid]

The Pits said:

5 USA said:

RobM77 said:

I just want feelsome and connected.

good point.

It never ceases to depress me how few so-called car 'enthusiasts' get that basic requirement for driving pleasure.

And how few car manufacturers for that matter either.

Beyond Lotus and Jaguar there are very few examples.

Porsche, though I could never own one, have on occasion shown some understanding of this but are so inconsistent. Depriving their smallest, lightest sportscar of feel makes no sense at all. I was also surprised to find superb steering in my Subaru 22B, so it's only fair that they should get a mention but I have no idea what a recent Subaru drives like. For all I know, they've done a 'BMW', and abandoned steering feel completely (comparing original M3 with every other one since). The Lancia Integrale was blessed with lovely steering too.

But really, the list of 'feelsome and connected' cars is so short, is it any wonder the Elise is such a revelation to drive?

you are such an idiot. its a pity you don't have anything to back up your extra ordinarily large mouth

[RobM77]

manlid said:

The Pits said:

5 USA said:

RobM77 said:

I just want feelsome and connected.

good point.

It never ceases to depress me how few so-called car 'enthusiasts' get that basic requirement for driving pleasure.

And how few car manufacturers for that matter either.

Beyond Lotus and Jaguar there are very few examples.

Porsche, though I could never own one, have on occasion shown some understanding of this but are so inconsistent. Depriving their smallest, lightest sportscar of feel makes no sense at all. I was also surprised to find superb steering in my Subaru 22B, so it's only fair that they should get a mention but I have no idea what a recent Subaru drives like. For all I know, they've done a 'BMW', and abandoned steering feel completely (comparing original M3 with every other one since). The Lancia Integrale was blessed with lovely steering too.

But really, the list of 'feelsome and connected' cars is so short, is it any wonder the Elise is such a revelation to drive?

you are such an idiot. its a pity you don't have anything to back up your extra ordinarily large mouth

That's a bit harsh. I agree with most of The Pits' comments quoted above. The pursuit of good mpg and emissions has driven most manufacturers to adopt electric PAS systems, which are difficult to tune for steering feel. Additionally, customers now require big wide tyres, which also cause problems with steering feel (my girlfriend's yaris has better feel than my Z4 Coupé!). I've driven two Cayman Ss and was very dissapointed with the steering feel in them, plus the general level of feedback from the chassis. A friend of mine who's tried a Cayman S and a 997 C2S says that the feedback levels are similarly numb in both cars. It's also what most people want - most people who buy performance cars want image, looks and performance in that order. Ride and Handling is essential in a sports car of course, but the last reaches of feedback probably aren't worth spending the money on to make a profit these days, which is why Lotus often struggle.

If I may I'll make a musical analogy, because it fits perfectly here. If someone grabs a guitar and sings in your living room it'll sound great. That's your 1980s car or an Elise - cable throttle, no PAS etc - raw and live. Record that person in a studio for the radio and it's a whole different ballgame - that's your modern sports car. You can't just stick a mike to someone's mouth and hit record, it'll sound awful, even with the best singer in the world; and you can't just bolt an electric motor to a steering column and get good steering feel like a non PAS system (or a hyrdraulic pump and valve system). The mike (and the PAS) will need endless tuning and money spent to get it to recreate that live sound, and often you'll never get there, not for general consumption by the masses on the radio anyway. Even the accidental steering feel of a humble Peugeot 205 takes some skill to reacreate in a 911 with fat tyres and PAS.

If you're not into music recording and want an example of this, consider your own voice heard on a cheap recording direct from mike to hard disc or tape. Largely, the difference in sound is because of the resonances of your skull, but actually, other people don't hear quite what you hear on a tape; I realise this when I first spoke through a studio mike and heard myself in the headphones - the band just heard "me" as usual, but for me it was a revelation, the first time I'd really heard me.

Sadly, there are more audiophiles out there than there are steering feel-ophiles.

[shoestring7]

RobM77 said:

manlid said:

The Pits said:

5 USA said:

RobM77 said:

I just want feelsome and connected.

good point.

It never ceases to depress me how few so-called car 'enthusiasts' get that basic requirement for driving pleasure.

And how few car manufacturers for that matter either.

Beyond Lotus and Jaguar there are very few examples.

Porsche, though I could never own one, have on occasion shown some understanding of this but are so inconsistent. Depriving their smallest, lightest sportscar of feel makes no sense at all. I was also surprised to find superb steering in my Subaru 22B, so it's only fair that they should get a mention but I have no idea what a recent Subaru drives like. For all I know, they've done a 'BMW', and abandoned steering feel completely (comparing original M3 with every other one since). The Lancia Integrale was blessed with lovely steering too.

But really, the list of 'feelsome and connected' cars is so short, is it any wonder the Elise is such a revelation to drive?

you are such an idiot. its a pity you don't have anything to back up your extra ordinarily large mouth

That's a bit harsh. I agree with most of The Pits' comments quoted above. The pursuit of good mpg and emissions has driven most manufacturers to adopt electric PAS systems, which are difficult to tune for steering feel. Additionally, customers now require big wide tyres, which also cause problems with steering feel (my girlfriend's yaris has better feel than my Z4 Coupé!). I've driven two Cayman Ss and was very dissapointed with the steering feel in them, plus the general level of feedback from the chassis. A friend of mine who's tried a Cayman S and a 997 C2S says that the feedback levels are similarly numb in both cars. It's also what most people want - most people who buy performance cars want image, looks and performance in that order. Ride and Handling is essential in a sports car of course, but the last reaches of feedback probably aren't worth spending the money on to make a profit these days, which is why Lotus often struggle.

If I may I'll make a musical analogy, because it fits perfectly here. If someone grabs a guitar and sings in your living room it'll sound great. That's your 1980s car or an Elise - cable throttle, no PAS etc - raw and live. Record that person in a studio for the radio and it's a whole different ballgame - that's your modern sports car. You can't just stick a mike to someone's mouth and hit record, it'll sound awful, even with the best singer in the world; and you can't just bolt an electric motor to a steering column and get good steering feel like a non PAS system (or a hyrdraulic pump and valve system). The mike (and the PAS) will need endless tuning and money spent to get it to recreate that live sound, and often you'll never get there, not for general consumption by the masses on the radio anyway. Even the accidental steering feel of a humble Peugeot 205 takes some skill to reacreate in a 911 with fat tyres and PAS.

If you're not into music recording and want an example of this, consider your own voice heard on a cheap recording direct from mike to hard disc or tape. Largely, the difference in sound is because of the resonances of your skull, but actually, other people don't hear quite what you hear on a tape; I realise this when I first spoke through a studio mike and heard myself in the headphones - the band just heard "me" as usual, but for me it was a revelation, the first time I'd really heard me.

Sadly, there are more audiophiles out there than there are steering feel-ophiles.

Rob,

I can't believe you're still spouting that bks about Porsche steering.

To remind you, Chris Harris said of the Cayman (2.7) steering:

in GTPP
After a week....I simply began to enjoy what must be one of the most competent cars the company has even made.... Because no car for the money has those delicious control weights or power assisted steering that actually provided feel....Steering and damping are very impressive....

and GTPP again
To me, the fact that I can spend £40k buying a car that shares tangible links with a GT3 in the way that its pedals move, its steering wheel swivels and its gear lever pings through the slightly over-sprung linkage is something to celebrate. ...what matters is the way I feel on empty Welsh roads as the car stays flat and controlled and 245bhp feels more than enough. I feel like I’m in one of the best sports cars ever built......It isn't necessary to drive at insane speeds to generate noticeable slip-angles, to feel the car moving about underneath you, and to expose the Caymans' Big exceptional steering.

Of course you and your mate (who's drive a C2S) can bang on about numb steering and bloody throttle lag, but it doesn't stop you from being just plain wrong.

SS7

[RobM77]

shoestring7 said:

RobM77 said:

manlid said:

The Pits said:

5 USA said:

RobM77 said:

I just want feelsome and connected.

good point.

It never ceases to depress me how few so-called car 'enthusiasts' get that basic requirement for driving pleasure.

And how few car manufacturers for that matter either.

Beyond Lotus and Jaguar there are very few examples.

Porsche, though I could never own one, have on occasion shown some understanding of this but are so inconsistent. Depriving their smallest, lightest sportscar of feel makes no sense at all. I was also surprised to find superb steering in my Subaru 22B, so it's only fair that they should get a mention but I have no idea what a recent Subaru drives like. For all I know, they've done a 'BMW', and abandoned steering feel completely (comparing original M3 with every other one since). The Lancia Integrale was blessed with lovely steering too.

But really, the list of 'feelsome and connected' cars is so short, is it any wonder the Elise is such a revelation to drive?

you are such an idiot. its a pity you don't have anything to back up your extra ordinarily large mouth

That's a bit harsh. I agree with most of The Pits' comments quoted above. The pursuit of good mpg and emissions has driven most manufacturers to adopt electric PAS systems, which are difficult to tune for steering feel. Additionally, customers now require big wide tyres, which also cause problems with steering feel (my girlfriend's yaris has better feel than my Z4 Coupé!). I've driven two Cayman Ss and was very dissapointed with the steering feel in them, plus the general level of feedback from the chassis. A friend of mine who's tried a Cayman S and a 997 C2S says that the feedback levels are similarly numb in both cars. It's also what most people want - most people who buy performance cars want image, looks and performance in that order. Ride and Handling is essential in a sports car of course, but the last reaches of feedback probably aren't worth spending the money on to make a profit these days, which is why Lotus often struggle.

If I may I'll make a musical analogy, because it fits perfectly here. If someone grabs a guitar and sings in your living room it'll sound great. That's your 1980s car or an Elise - cable throttle, no PAS etc - raw and live. Record that person in a studio for the radio and it's a whole different ballgame - that's your modern sports car. You can't just stick a mike to someone's mouth and hit record, it'll sound awful, even with the best singer in the world; and you can't just bolt an electric motor to a steering column and get good steering feel like a non PAS system (or a hyrdraulic pump and valve system). The mike (and the PAS) will need endless tuning and money spent to get it to recreate that live sound, and often you'll never get there, not for general consumption by the masses on the radio anyway. Even the accidental steering feel of a humble Peugeot 205 takes some skill to reacreate in a 911 with fat tyres and PAS.

If you're not into music recording and want an example of this, consider your own voice heard on a cheap recording direct from mike to hard disc or tape. Largely, the difference in sound is because of the resonances of your skull, but actually, other people don't hear quite what you hear on a tape; I realise this when I first spoke through a studio mike and heard myself in the headphones - the band just heard "me" as usual, but for me it was a revelation, the first time I'd really heard me.

Sadly, there are more audiophiles out there than there are steering feel-ophiles.

Rob,

I can't believe you're still spouting that bks about Porsche steering.

To remind you, Chris Harris said of the Cayman (2.7) steering:

in GTPP
After a week....I simply began to enjoy what must be one of the most competent cars the company has even made.... Because no car for the money has those delicious control weights or power assisted steering that actually provided feel....Steering and damping are very impressive....

and GTPP again
To me, the fact that I can spend £40k buying a car that shares tangible links with a GT3 in the way that its pedals move, its steering wheel swivels and its gear lever pings through the slightly over-sprung linkage is something to celebrate. ...what matters is the way I feel on empty Welsh roads as the car stays flat and controlled and 245bhp feels more than enough. I feel like I’m in one of the best sports cars ever built......It isn't necessary to drive at insane speeds to generate noticeable slip-angles, to feel the car moving about underneath you, and to expose the Caymans' Big exceptional steering.

Of course you and your mate (who's drive a C2S) can bang on about numb steering and bloody throttle lag, but it doesn't stop you from being just plain wrong.

SS7

Steering feel is subjective, so we'll have to agree to differ. I'm not the first person to say the Cayman's steering lacks feel, and I'll doubt I'll be the last. I do respect your opinion though; I believe you were the person who convinced me to go back and try another Cayman S which I gladly did. As I've experienced in a few cars, badly set up geo or incorrect tyre pressures can severely reduce steering feel very easily. However, the demo CSs at both Reading OPC and Guildford OPC both steered like an Audi - sorry, that's just what I thought having driven both cars. I'd like to add that I'm talking about feel here, and not accuracy. CH may have said what you quote above, but plenty of times that I've read him review the Cayman he's simply said that he likes the steering and that it's good, without ever commenting directly on the feel. I believe your quote from Chris though. It's odd though, because CH is my favourite car journalist and I'm not sure I've ever disagreed with his opinion on anything before. He's never mentioned the Cayman's non-linear rack either actually, it drives me crazy!

Throttle lag isn't subjective - it's objectively there and measurable so sorry, I'm not wrong on that one. I've been in this discussion with people so many times that I actually filmed my Z4C doing it to prove the point (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MsoBlLIrNk). The Z4C delay you see in that video is very similar to that on the Cayman S - both smaller than for example a 135i, 330i etc, but it's there nonetheless. If you click on my videos on You Tube you can view similar videos for my Elise (cable throttle) and my Dad's 320d (diesel and DBW, but no delay). There's also the fact that the throttle pedal in the Cayman meters torque, not throttle opening, which is also a bit weird, but I guess one can acclimatise to that.

[juansolo]

shoestring7 said:

RobM77 said:

manlid said:

The Pits said:

5 USA said:

RobM77 said:

I just want feelsome and connected.

good point.

It never ceases to depress me how few so-called car 'enthusiasts' get that basic requirement for driving pleasure.

And how few car manufacturers for that matter either.

Beyond Lotus and Jaguar there are very few examples.

Porsche, though I could never own one, have on occasion shown some understanding of this but are so inconsistent. Depriving their smallest, lightest sportscar of feel makes no sense at all. I was also surprised to find superb steering in my Subaru 22B, so it's only fair that they should get a mention but I have no idea what a recent Subaru drives like. For all I know, they've done a 'BMW', and abandoned steering feel completely (comparing original M3 with every other one since). The Lancia Integrale was blessed with lovely steering too.

But really, the list of 'feelsome and connected' cars is so short, is it any wonder the Elise is such a revelation to drive?

you are such an idiot. its a pity you don't have anything to back up your extra ordinarily large mouth

That's a bit harsh. I agree with most of The Pits' comments quoted above. The pursuit of good mpg and emissions has driven most manufacturers to adopt electric PAS systems, which are difficult to tune for steering feel. Additionally, customers now require big wide tyres, which also cause problems with steering feel (my girlfriend's yaris has better feel than my Z4 Coupé!). I've driven two Cayman Ss and was very dissapointed with the steering feel in them, plus the general level of feedback from the chassis. A friend of mine who's tried a Cayman S and a 997 C2S says that the feedback levels are similarly numb in both cars. It's also what most people want - most people who buy performance cars want image, looks and performance in that order. Ride and Handling is essential in a sports car of course, but the last reaches of feedback probably aren't worth spending the money on to make a profit these days, which is why Lotus often struggle.

If I may I'll make a musical analogy, because it fits perfectly here. If someone grabs a guitar and sings in your living room it'll sound great. That's your 1980s car or an Elise - cable throttle, no PAS etc - raw and live. Record that person in a studio for the radio and it's a whole different ballgame - that's your modern sports car. You can't just stick a mike to someone's mouth and hit record, it'll sound awful, even with the best singer in the world; and you can't just bolt an electric motor to a steering column and get good steering feel like a non PAS system (or a hyrdraulic pump and valve system). The mike (and the PAS) will need endless tuning and money spent to get it to recreate that live sound, and often you'll never get there, not for general consumption by the masses on the radio anyway. Even the accidental steering feel of a humble Peugeot 205 takes some skill to reacreate in a 911 with fat tyres and PAS.

If you're not into music recording and want an example of this, consider your own voice heard on a cheap recording direct from mike to hard disc or tape. Largely, the difference in sound is because of the resonances of your skull, but actually, other people don't hear quite what you hear on a tape; I realise this when I first spoke through a studio mike and heard myself in the headphones - the band just heard "me" as usual, but for me it was a revelation, the first time I'd really heard me.

Sadly, there are more audiophiles out there than there are steering feel-ophiles.

Rob,

I can't believe you're still spouting that bks about Porsche steering.

To remind you, Chris Harris said of the Cayman (2.7) steering:

in GTPP
After a week....I simply began to enjoy what must be one of the most competent cars the company has even made.... Because no car for the money has those delicious control weights or power assisted steering that actually provided feel....Steering and damping are very impressive....

and GTPP again
To me, the fact that I can spend £40k buying a car that shares tangible links with a GT3 in the way that its pedals move, its steering wheel swivels and its gear lever pings through the slightly over-sprung linkage is something to celebrate. ...what matters is the way I feel on empty Welsh roads as the car stays flat and controlled and 245bhp feels more than enough. I feel like I’m in one of the best sports cars ever built......It isn't necessary to drive at insane speeds to generate noticeable slip-angles, to feel the car moving about underneath you, and to expose the Caymans' Big exceptional steering.

Of course you and your mate (who's drive a C2S) can bang on about numb steering and bloody throttle lag, but it doesn't stop you from being just plain wrong.

SS7

Gotta side with Mr Harris here. I went from an Elise to a Cayman 2.7 and he absolutely nails what's good about it. It isn't as direct or as feelsome as an Elise. It was never going to be. But it does have feel, and quite a lot of it in comparison to just about anything that hasn't worn a Lotus badge at some point. It's even better with the smaller, stock 17" wheels on it which are vastly lighter, narrower and have an inch more sidewall than the 18's. The 18's f**k it up a surprising amount in comparison. I also agree wholeheartedly that if you get it out onto the twisties, there are few other cars I'd rather be in.

[RobM77]

juansolo said:

shoestring7 said:

RobM77 said:

manlid said:

The Pits said:

5 USA said:

RobM77 said:

I just want feelsome and connected.

good point.

It never ceases to depress me how few so-called car 'enthusiasts' get that basic requirement for driving pleasure.

And how few car manufacturers for that matter either.

Beyond Lotus and Jaguar there are very few examples.

Porsche, though I could never own one, have on occasion shown some understanding of this but are so inconsistent. Depriving their smallest, lightest sportscar of feel makes no sense at all. I was also surprised to find superb steering in my Subaru 22B, so it's only fair that they should get a mention but I have no idea what a recent Subaru drives like. For all I know, they've done a 'BMW', and abandoned steering feel completely (comparing original M3 with every other one since). The Lancia Integrale was blessed with lovely steering too.

But really, the list of 'feelsome and connected' cars is so short, is it any wonder the Elise is such a revelation to drive?

you are such an idiot. its a pity you don't have anything to back up your extra ordinarily large mouth

That's a bit harsh. I agree with most of The Pits' comments quoted above. The pursuit of good mpg and emissions has driven most manufacturers to adopt electric PAS systems, which are difficult to tune for steering feel. Additionally, customers now require big wide tyres, which also cause problems with steering feel (my girlfriend's yaris has better feel than my Z4 Coupé!). I've driven two Cayman Ss and was very dissapointed with the steering feel in them, plus the general level of feedback from the chassis. A friend of mine who's tried a Cayman S and a 997 C2S says that the feedback levels are similarly numb in both cars. It's also what most people want - most people who buy performance cars want image, looks and performance in that order. Ride and Handling is essential in a sports car of course, but the last reaches of feedback probably aren't worth spending the money on to make a profit these days, which is why Lotus often struggle.

If I may I'll make a musical analogy, because it fits perfectly here. If someone grabs a guitar and sings in your living room it'll sound great. That's your 1980s car or an Elise - cable throttle, no PAS etc - raw and live. Record that person in a studio for the radio and it's a whole different ballgame - that's your modern sports car. You can't just stick a mike to someone's mouth and hit record, it'll sound awful, even with the best singer in the world; and you can't just bolt an electric motor to a steering column and get good steering feel like a non PAS system (or a hyrdraulic pump and valve system). The mike (and the PAS) will need endless tuning and money spent to get it to recreate that live sound, and often you'll never get there, not for general consumption by the masses on the radio anyway. Even the accidental steering feel of a humble Peugeot 205 takes some skill to reacreate in a 911 with fat tyres and PAS.

If you're not into music recording and want an example of this, consider your own voice heard on a cheap recording direct from mike to hard disc or tape. Largely, the difference in sound is because of the resonances of your skull, but actually, other people don't hear quite what you hear on a tape; I realise this when I first spoke through a studio mike and heard myself in the headphones - the band just heard "me" as usual, but for me it was a revelation, the first time I'd really heard me.

Sadly, there are more audiophiles out there than there are steering feel-ophiles.

Rob,

I can't believe you're still spouting that bks about Porsche steering.

To remind you, Chris Harris said of the Cayman (2.7) steering:

in GTPP
After a week....I simply began to enjoy what must be one of the most competent cars the company has even made.... Because no car for the money has those delicious control weights or power assisted steering that actually provided feel....Steering and damping are very impressive....

and GTPP again
To me, the fact that I can spend £40k buying a car that shares tangible links with a GT3 in the way that its pedals move, its steering wheel swivels and its gear lever pings through the slightly over-sprung linkage is something to celebrate. ...what matters is the way I feel on empty Welsh roads as the car stays flat and controlled and 245bhp feels more than enough. I feel like I’m in one of the best sports cars ever built......It isn't necessary to drive at insane speeds to generate noticeable slip-angles, to feel the car moving about underneath you, and to expose the Caymans' Big exceptional steering.

Of course you and your mate (who's drive a C2S) can bang on about numb steering and bloody throttle lag, but it doesn't stop you from being just plain wrong.

SS7

Gotta side with Mr Harris here. I went from an Elise to a Cayman 2.7 and he absolutely nails what's good about it. It isn't as direct or as feelsome as an Elise. It was never going to be. But it does have feel, and quite a lot of it in comparison to just about anything that hasn't worn a Lotus badge at some point. It's even better with the smaller, stock 17" wheels on it which are vastly lighter, narrower and have an inch more sidewall than the 18's. The 18's f**k it up a surprising amount in comparison. I also agree wholeheartedly that if you get it out onto the twisties, there are few other cars I'd rather be in.

Both cars that I drove were on 18s with no PASM.

For sure, the Elise is going to be much better, but back then my daily driver was an E36 328i (a car not praised for its steering), and the steering feel felt noticeably better in that compared to the Cayman S. I must confess, when I first drove my Z4C (my replacement for the 328i) I thought it had no steering feel at all, but over the coming weeks (and it did take weeks!!) I gradually started to detect feel there, and now I'm used to it.

Note that Harris' comments were regarding the bog standard Cayman. Maybe this is a combination of factors as well as just subjective personal taste? I know I'm not the only one who's not liked the Cayman's feedback and steering feel.

[The Pits]

The recent boxster I drove last year had very indifferent steering.

Totally no where near the league of the Elise's, which is almost universally recognised as the best steering money can currently buy.

There are endless column inches devoted to how much better the steering on an Evora is to a Cayman's too.

And that's by the likes of Chris Harris.

His comments on the Cayman were made before the Evora was even a twinkle in Roger Becker's eye.

[RobM77]

The Pits said:

The recent boxster I drove last year had very indifferent steering.

Totally no where near the league of the Elise's, which is almost universally recognised as the best steering money can currently buy.

There are endless column inches devoted to how much better the steering on an Evora is to a Cayman's too.

And that's by the likes of Chris Harris.

His comments on the Cayman were made before the Evora was even a twinkle in Roger Becker's eye.

Without wishing to criticise Chris Harris (because I love his writing), car journalists do have a habit of exagerrating or hyping things up, and then re-assessing their opinions later on. Frequently I've researched a car I want to buy by looking through my old Evos and Autocars (I've never thrown a magazine away, and have hundreds!), only to find that in the first drive they rave about it, and then in a later group test they start listing shortcomings, and the ultimate put down comes when a new model comes out and they suddenly reveal things about the car that they never said before - "this could be better" and "that could be better".

I'm not trying to compare the Cayman's feel to an Elise, but I feel it should at least be as good as my old 328i (identical weight and with hydraulic PAS), which it clearly wasn't, and the Cayman is nowhere near as good as Lotuses past, such as the Esprit.

I am a Porsche fan, honest, I'm just realistic about cars and I won't say I like something if I don't.

[Hedgerley]

I've yet to drive the Evora in anger and my only Porsche experience was a Boxter many years ago, so I really only have the magazine tests to go on. I could pick any but this from Evo, a direct comparison with the Cayman - which they cheekily turned up in at the Evora launch - clearly puts the Evora ahead:

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/2357...

John Barker's last statement sums it up well -

"The Cayman is still a great car but the Evora, well, the Evora is irresistible."

'nuff said.

Edited by Hedgerley on Friday 27th August 20:39