Evora v 911

[daveknott5]

If it were my £60k, I'd buy a new Nissan GTR.....

[kambites]

If it were buy 60k, I'd buy a buy-to-let.

[RobM77]

kambites said:

If it were buy 60k, I'd buy a buy-to-let.

That'd be a good way of recouping the investment. Not sure I'd allow it on track days though

[bogie]

If it were my £60K id get a 3 yr old RS6 for when I needed to carry 4 and a 3 year old Elise/Exige for track/weekend fun, and still have some change left over

talking about it in money terms alone, there are as many options on what to buy for £60K, as there are cars on the market - you can buy just about anything for that if its old enough LOL

[daveknott5]

bogie said:

If it were my £60K id get a 3 yr old RS6 for when I needed to carry 4 and a 3 year old Elise/Exige for track/weekend fun, and still have some change left over

talking about it in money terms alone, there are as many options on what to buy for £60K, as there are cars on the market - you can buy just about anything for that if its old enough LOL

v true, v true, I was just offering up another 4 seat high performance option v the 911 and Evora..... The GTR is a car that shouldn't be overlooked imo

[RobM77]

Splitting one's cost between cars is a great idea (I've done it for the last seven years). The only problem is that you're often stuck in something dull 80% of the time wondering where your hard earned money goes.

[bogie]

RobM77 said:

Splitting one's cost between cars is a great idea (I've done it for the last seven years). The only problem is that you're often stuck in something dull 80% of the time wondering where your hard earned money goes.

yes, exactly, I had that for a few years too, driving mediocre saloons as commuters with an Elise for the weekend....now I find a Vantage just fine as a daily runaround ...I just need a £2K Volvo estate to leave on the drive for the odd bit of DIY or runs to the tip LOL

seriously, isnt that the problem though - every car is compromised in some way, its just which compromise you choose, based on your current requirements

[RobM77]

bogie said:

RobM77 said:

Splitting one's cost between cars is a great idea (I've done it for the last seven years). The only problem is that you're often stuck in something dull 80% of the time wondering where your hard earned money goes.

yes, exactly, I had that for a few years too, driving mediocre saloons as commuters with an Elise for the weekend....now I find a Vantage just fine as a daily runaround ...I just need a £2K Volvo estate to leave on the drive for the odd bit of DIY or runs to the tip LOL

seriously, isnt that the problem though - every car is compromised in some way, its just which compromise you choose, based on your current requirements

The problem I find is the unecessary compromises that cars make. I don't mind the necessary compromises, such as not having open top in my BMW because it needs to be quiet on the motorway and have a roof rack. Equally, I don't mind the fact that the BMW only does 33mpg and 0-60 in 6 seconds, because it needs to be substantial and weighty to have low NVH and boot space. What I regret is when manufacturers confuse NVH with feedback. Most modern motorway/comfortable cars go for low NVH and strangely take all the feedback away with it. I was going to buy a Cayman S as my only car, but found it had the feedback and involvement of an Audi, coupled with crazy non-linear steering. yawn.

[dom180]

RobM77 said:

bogie said:

RobM77 said:

Splitting one's cost between cars is a great idea (I've done it for the last seven years). The only problem is that you're often stuck in something dull 80% of the time wondering where your hard earned money goes.

yes, exactly, I had that for a few years too, driving mediocre saloons as commuters with an Elise for the weekend....now I find a Vantage just fine as a daily runaround ...I just need a £2K Volvo estate to leave on the drive for the odd bit of DIY or runs to the tip LOL

seriously, isnt that the problem though - every car is compromised in some way, its just which compromise you choose, based on your current requirements

The problem I find is the unecessary compromises that cars make. I don't mind the necessary compromises, such as not having open top in my BMW because it needs to be quiet on the motorway and have a roof rack. Equally, I don't mind the fact that the BMW only does 33mpg and 0-60 in 6 seconds, because it needs to be substantial and weighty to have low NVH and boot space. What I regret is when manufacturers confuse NVH with feedback. Most modern motorway/comfortable cars go for low NVH and strangely take all the feedback away with it. I was going to buy a Cayman S as my only car, but found it had the feedback and involvement of an Audi, coupled with crazy non-linear steering. yawn.

Rob, crazy Porsche non-linear steering aside [and I def. agree with you on that point although in my all too short experience with it, it does actually seem to work extremely well at filtering all the crap that your brain just ignores anyway and it does seem great for catching slides/keeping hands uncrossed - I'd also bet a sizeable stake that Herr Rohrl is faster with the non-linear steering than without it.......] what involvement have Porsche engineered out of the Cayman that the Elise or other cars have aside from the aforementioned steering, noise and lightness?

Personally, I'd say Porsche are far closer to Lotus wrt involvement than they are to Audi.....

[RobM77]

dom180 said:

RobM77 said:

bogie said:

RobM77 said:

Splitting one's cost between cars is a great idea (I've done it for the last seven years). The only problem is that you're often stuck in something dull 80% of the time wondering where your hard earned money goes.

yes, exactly, I had that for a few years too, driving mediocre saloons as commuters with an Elise for the weekend....now I find a Vantage just fine as a daily runaround ...I just need a £2K Volvo estate to leave on the drive for the odd bit of DIY or runs to the tip LOL

seriously, isnt that the problem though - every car is compromised in some way, its just which compromise you choose, based on your current requirements

The problem I find is the unecessary compromises that cars make. I don't mind the necessary compromises, such as not having open top in my BMW because it needs to be quiet on the motorway and have a roof rack. Equally, I don't mind the fact that the BMW only does 33mpg and 0-60 in 6 seconds, because it needs to be substantial and weighty to have low NVH and boot space. What I regret is when manufacturers confuse NVH with feedback. Most modern motorway/comfortable cars go for low NVH and strangely take all the feedback away with it. I was going to buy a Cayman S as my only car, but found it had the feedback and involvement of an Audi, coupled with crazy non-linear steering. yawn.

Rob, crazy Porsche non-linear steering aside [and I def. agree with you on that point although in my all too short experience with it, it does actually seem to work extremely well at filtering all the crap that your brain just ignores anyway and it does seem great for catching slides/keeping hands uncrossed - I'd also bet a sizeable stake that Herr Rohrl is faster with the non-linear steering than without it.......] what involvement have Porsche engineered out of the Cayman that the Elise or other cars have aside from the aforementioned steering, noise and lightness?

Personally, I'd say Porsche are far closer to Lotus wrt involvement than they are to Audi.....

Low NVH I would expect from a modern Porsche. What I felt was lacking was throttle response, steering feel and to some extent chassis feel. For the first test drive I had I drove my Lotus to it, and obviously the Elise was a far better drive afterwards than the Cayman S; so, for the second test drive I turned up in my E36 328i Sport. Believe it or not, I actually felt more in touch with the 328i on the drive home. The suspension was woeful in comparison (and my BMW's got brand new BMW suspension on it!), the handling not as good, the steering not as sharp, the CofG felt too high, but crucially the steering was linear and with greater feel (which are both different things from steering response), and the cable operated throttle was smoother and more progressive than the snatchy laggy throttle in the Porsche. In short, although the Cayman was far more capable as a car (it's in a different league!), and quieter and more comfortable too, I preferred actually driving the BMW.

My message to Porsche would be to ditch the non-linear steering for starters. Yes, Walter Rohrl might not like it, but most people that I've spoken to don't, and we buy the cars! I hate it so much it put me off buying any Porsche at all. They you (Porsche) need to find a PAS system which gives a natural feel to the rack - benchmarks for this are cars like the Lotus Esprit. PAS shouldn't feel assisted. The steering in the Cayman S felt to me like a mid 90s onwards Audi A4, or the later BMWs 2005 onwards - too much assistance either side of centre. They then need to work on the throttle. If you can draw a graph of input vs response and it doesn't cross through 0 then don't let the car leave the factory. Ideally, get one of your old 964s, 944s, 968s etc out and plot a graph of input and output, then tune the new throttle to match it. Secondly, this business of throttle position giving torque rather than just the throttle body opening? It may sound clever but it feels weird to a lot of drivers - there's no point so just ditch it. Lastly, give the steering wheel another 3-4 inches of reach adjustment; there are an awful lot of people with £50k-£100k to spend on a car who don't have long enough arms to get comfortable in your cars. These people aren't going to spend £50k on a car that gives them shoulder and upper back ache when they can buy a £15k Golf or 1 series and get comfortable immediately. Gangly Mr Rohrl (sorry Walter, much respect is intended!) probably fits, but as I said before, he ain't buying the cars! The general public are and, believe it or not, we aren't all pure breds with perfect proportions.

[dom180]

RobM77 said:

dom180 said:

RobM77 said:

bogie said:

RobM77 said:

Splitting one's cost between cars is a great idea (I've done it for the last seven years). The only problem is that you're often stuck in something dull 80% of the time wondering where your hard earned money goes.

yes, exactly, I had that for a few years too, driving mediocre saloons as commuters with an Elise for the weekend....now I find a Vantage just fine as a daily runaround ...I just need a £2K Volvo estate to leave on the drive for the odd bit of DIY or runs to the tip LOL

seriously, isnt that the problem though - every car is compromised in some way, its just which compromise you choose, based on your current requirements

The problem I find is the unecessary compromises that cars make. I don't mind the necessary compromises, such as not having open top in my BMW because it needs to be quiet on the motorway and have a roof rack. Equally, I don't mind the fact that the BMW only does 33mpg and 0-60 in 6 seconds, because it needs to be substantial and weighty to have low NVH and boot space. What I regret is when manufacturers confuse NVH with feedback. Most modern motorway/comfortable cars go for low NVH and strangely take all the feedback away with it. I was going to buy a Cayman S as my only car, but found it had the feedback and involvement of an Audi, coupled with crazy non-linear steering. yawn.

Rob, crazy Porsche non-linear steering aside [and I def. agree with you on that point although in my all too short experience with it, it does actually seem to work extremely well at filtering all the crap that your brain just ignores anyway and it does seem great for catching slides/keeping hands uncrossed - I'd also bet a sizeable stake that Herr Rohrl is faster with the non-linear steering than without it.......] what involvement have Porsche engineered out of the Cayman that the Elise or other cars have aside from the aforementioned steering, noise and lightness?

Personally, I'd say Porsche are far closer to Lotus wrt involvement than they are to Audi.....

Low NVH I would expect from a modern Porsche. What I felt was lacking was throttle response, steering feel and to some extent chassis feel. For the first test drive I had I drove my Lotus to it, and obviously the Elise was a far better drive afterwards than the Cayman S; so, for the second test drive I turned up in my E36 328i Sport. Believe it or not, I actually felt more in touch with the 328i on the drive home. The suspension was woeful in comparison (and my BMW's got brand new BMW suspension on it!), the handling not as good, the steering not as sharp, the CofG felt too high, but crucially the steering was linear and with greater feel (which are both different things from steering response), and the cable operated throttle was smoother and more progressive than the snatchy laggy throttle in the Porsche. In short, although the Cayman was far more capable as a car (it's in a different league!), and quieter and more comfortable too, I preferred actually driving the BMW.

My message to Porsche would be to ditch the non-linear steering for starters. Yes, Walter Rohrl might not like it, but most people that I've spoken to don't, and we buy the cars! I hate it so much it put me off buying any Porsche at all. They you (Porsche) need to find a PAS system which gives a natural feel to the rack - benchmarks for this are cars like the Lotus Esprit. PAS shouldn't feel assisted. The steering in the Cayman S felt to me like a mid 90s onwards Audi A4, or the later BMWs 2005 onwards - too much assistance either side of centre. They then need to work on the throttle. If you can draw a graph of input vs response and it doesn't cross through 0 then don't let the car leave the factory. Ideally, get one of your old 964s, 944s, 968s etc out and plot a graph of input and output, then tune the new throttle to match it. Secondly, this business of throttle position giving torque rather than just the throttle body opening? It may sound clever but it feels weird to a lot of drivers - there's no point so just ditch it. Lastly, give the steering wheel another 3-4 inches of reach adjustment; there are an awful lot of people with £50k-£100k to spend on a car who don't have long enough arms to get comfortable in your cars. These people aren't going to spend £50k on a car that gives them shoulder and upper back ache when they can buy a £15k Golf or 1 series and get comfortable immediately. Gangly Mr Rohrl (sorry Walter, much respect is intended!) probably fits, but as I said before, he ain't buying the cars! The general public are and, believe it or not, we aren't all pure breds with perfect proportions.

Ok, so ignoring steering feel and linearity, the throttle responce issue (which is likely a function of modern emissions legislation that your BMW doesn't have to deal with), and comfort (which is a fair comment), what chassis feel messages did you miss in the Porsche compared to your Elise - just curious as I thought the Cayman was particularly good in that regard?

[RobM77]

dom180 said:

RobM77 said:

dom180 said:

RobM77 said:

bogie said:

RobM77 said:

Splitting one's cost between cars is a great idea (I've done it for the last seven years). The only problem is that you're often stuck in something dull 80% of the time wondering where your hard earned money goes.

yes, exactly, I had that for a few years too, driving mediocre saloons as commuters with an Elise for the weekend....now I find a Vantage just fine as a daily runaround ...I just need a £2K Volvo estate to leave on the drive for the odd bit of DIY or runs to the tip LOL

seriously, isnt that the problem though - every car is compromised in some way, its just which compromise you choose, based on your current requirements

The problem I find is the unecessary compromises that cars make. I don't mind the necessary compromises, such as not having open top in my BMW because it needs to be quiet on the motorway and have a roof rack. Equally, I don't mind the fact that the BMW only does 33mpg and 0-60 in 6 seconds, because it needs to be substantial and weighty to have low NVH and boot space. What I regret is when manufacturers confuse NVH with feedback. Most modern motorway/comfortable cars go for low NVH and strangely take all the feedback away with it. I was going to buy a Cayman S as my only car, but found it had the feedback and involvement of an Audi, coupled with crazy non-linear steering. yawn.

Rob, crazy Porsche non-linear steering aside [and I def. agree with you on that point although in my all too short experience with it, it does actually seem to work extremely well at filtering all the crap that your brain just ignores anyway and it does seem great for catching slides/keeping hands uncrossed - I'd also bet a sizeable stake that Herr Rohrl is faster with the non-linear steering than without it.......] what involvement have Porsche engineered out of the Cayman that the Elise or other cars have aside from the aforementioned steering, noise and lightness?

Personally, I'd say Porsche are far closer to Lotus wrt involvement than they are to Audi.....

Low NVH I would expect from a modern Porsche. What I felt was lacking was throttle response, steering feel and to some extent chassis feel. For the first test drive I had I drove my Lotus to it, and obviously the Elise was a far better drive afterwards than the Cayman S; so, for the second test drive I turned up in my E36 328i Sport. Believe it or not, I actually felt more in touch with the 328i on the drive home. The suspension was woeful in comparison (and my BMW's got brand new BMW suspension on it!), the handling not as good, the steering not as sharp, the CofG felt too high, but crucially the steering was linear and with greater feel (which are both different things from steering response), and the cable operated throttle was smoother and more progressive than the snatchy laggy throttle in the Porsche. In short, although the Cayman was far more capable as a car (it's in a different league!), and quieter and more comfortable too, I preferred actually driving the BMW.

My message to Porsche would be to ditch the non-linear steering for starters. Yes, Walter Rohrl might not like it, but most people that I've spoken to don't, and we buy the cars! I hate it so much it put me off buying any Porsche at all. They you (Porsche) need to find a PAS system which gives a natural feel to the rack - benchmarks for this are cars like the Lotus Esprit. PAS shouldn't feel assisted. The steering in the Cayman S felt to me like a mid 90s onwards Audi A4, or the later BMWs 2005 onwards - too much assistance either side of centre. They then need to work on the throttle. If you can draw a graph of input vs response and it doesn't cross through 0 then don't let the car leave the factory. Ideally, get one of your old 964s, 944s, 968s etc out and plot a graph of input and output, then tune the new throttle to match it. Secondly, this business of throttle position giving torque rather than just the throttle body opening? It may sound clever but it feels weird to a lot of drivers - there's no point so just ditch it. Lastly, give the steering wheel another 3-4 inches of reach adjustment; there are an awful lot of people with £50k-£100k to spend on a car who don't have long enough arms to get comfortable in your cars. These people aren't going to spend £50k on a car that gives them shoulder and upper back ache when they can buy a £15k Golf or 1 series and get comfortable immediately. Gangly Mr Rohrl (sorry Walter, much respect is intended!) probably fits, but as I said before, he ain't buying the cars! The general public are and, believe it or not, we aren't all pure breds with perfect proportions.

Ok, so ignoring steering feel and linearity, the throttle responce issue (which is likely a function of modern emissions legislation that your BMW doesn't have to deal with), and comfort (which is a fair comment), what chassis feel messages did you miss in the Porsche compared to your Elise - just curious as I thought the Cayman was particularly good in that regard?

It's kind of hard to quantify really. Yes, the Cayman is very good in that respect compared with a lot of modern cars, it's just that constant feeling of what the road and car are doing I suppose. Going from the Elise to the Cayman is like switching from a detailed running commentary, Radio 5 live style, to a gentle conversation with a shy person; the details there, but you need to fill in the gaps. I just didn't feel at one with the car. I wouldn't mind betting that a lot of it is psychological because I feel detached and ill at ease because of the lack of steering feel and throttle pedal response. Thinking of that last point actually, I think all the elements of a driver's car need to be present for the whole thing to really gel.

You can tell by the amount that I've written on the subject that I'm very dissapointed to find this about the Porsche. I've idolised Porsche since I was a kid, and the Cayman S was the first Porsche that I drove. Like a lot of your childhood heroes, it just wasn't what I expected. Maybe I should drive the CTR or the 962 that I liked as a kid? I'd probably like those What I was expecting from a run of the mill production Porsche was a cohesive driver's car brimming with feel and oozing competition heritage, but with amazing build quality and luxury comfort. It delivered as promised in the latter two areas, but in the former area it fell way short. As I said, I got more out of driving my BMW

[dom180]

RobM77 said:

dom180 said:

RobM77 said:

dom180 said:

RobM77 said:

bogie said:

RobM77 said:

Splitting one's cost between cars is a great idea (I've done it for the last seven years). The only problem is that you're often stuck in something dull 80% of the time wondering where your hard earned money goes.

yes, exactly, I had that for a few years too, driving mediocre saloons as commuters with an Elise for the weekend....now I find a Vantage just fine as a daily runaround ...I just need a £2K Volvo estate to leave on the drive for the odd bit of DIY or runs to the tip LOL

seriously, isnt that the problem though - every car is compromised in some way, its just which compromise you choose, based on your current requirements

The problem I find is the unecessary compromises that cars make. I don't mind the necessary compromises, such as not having open top in my BMW because it needs to be quiet on the motorway and have a roof rack. Equally, I don't mind the fact that the BMW only does 33mpg and 0-60 in 6 seconds, because it needs to be substantial and weighty to have low NVH and boot space. What I regret is when manufacturers confuse NVH with feedback. Most modern motorway/comfortable cars go for low NVH and strangely take all the feedback away with it. I was going to buy a Cayman S as my only car, but found it had the feedback and involvement of an Audi, coupled with crazy non-linear steering. yawn.

Rob, crazy Porsche non-linear steering aside [and I def. agree with you on that point although in my all too short experience with it, it does actually seem to work extremely well at filtering all the crap that your brain just ignores anyway and it does seem great for catching slides/keeping hands uncrossed - I'd also bet a sizeable stake that Herr Rohrl is faster with the non-linear steering than without it.......] what involvement have Porsche engineered out of the Cayman that the Elise or other cars have aside from the aforementioned steering, noise and lightness?

Personally, I'd say Porsche are far closer to Lotus wrt involvement than they are to Audi.....

Low NVH I would expect from a modern Porsche. What I felt was lacking was throttle response, steering feel and to some extent chassis feel. For the first test drive I had I drove my Lotus to it, and obviously the Elise was a far better drive afterwards than the Cayman S; so, for the second test drive I turned up in my E36 328i Sport. Believe it or not, I actually felt more in touch with the 328i on the drive home. The suspension was woeful in comparison (and my BMW's got brand new BMW suspension on it!), the handling not as good, the steering not as sharp, the CofG felt too high, but crucially the steering was linear and with greater feel (which are both different things from steering response), and the cable operated throttle was smoother and more progressive than the snatchy laggy throttle in the Porsche. In short, although the Cayman was far more capable as a car (it's in a different league!), and quieter and more comfortable too, I preferred actually driving the BMW.

My message to Porsche would be to ditch the non-linear steering for starters. Yes, Walter Rohrl might not like it, but most people that I've spoken to don't, and we buy the cars! I hate it so much it put me off buying any Porsche at all. They you (Porsche) need to find a PAS system which gives a natural feel to the rack - benchmarks for this are cars like the Lotus Esprit. PAS shouldn't feel assisted. The steering in the Cayman S felt to me like a mid 90s onwards Audi A4, or the later BMWs 2005 onwards - too much assistance either side of centre. They then need to work on the throttle. If you can draw a graph of input vs response and it doesn't cross through 0 then don't let the car leave the factory. Ideally, get one of your old 964s, 944s, 968s etc out and plot a graph of input and output, then tune the new throttle to match it. Secondly, this business of throttle position giving torque rather than just the throttle body opening? It may sound clever but it feels weird to a lot of drivers - there's no point so just ditch it. Lastly, give the steering wheel another 3-4 inches of reach adjustment; there are an awful lot of people with £50k-£100k to spend on a car who don't have long enough arms to get comfortable in your cars. These people aren't going to spend £50k on a car that gives them shoulder and upper back ache when they can buy a £15k Golf or 1 series and get comfortable immediately. Gangly Mr Rohrl (sorry Walter, much respect is intended!) probably fits, but as I said before, he ain't buying the cars! The general public are and, believe it or not, we aren't all pure breds with perfect proportions.

Ok, so ignoring steering feel and linearity, the throttle responce issue (which is likely a function of modern emissions legislation that your BMW doesn't have to deal with), and comfort (which is a fair comment), what chassis feel messages did you miss in the Porsche compared to your Elise - just curious as I thought the Cayman was particularly good in that regard?

It's kind of hard to quantify really. Yes, the Cayman is very good in that respect compared with a lot of modern cars, it's just that constant feeling of what the road and car are doing I suppose. Going from the Elise to the Cayman is like switching from a detailed running commentary, Radio 5 live style, to a gentle conversation with a shy person; the details there, but you need to fill in the gaps. I just didn't feel at one with the car. I wouldn't mind betting that a lot of it is psychological because I feel detached and ill at ease because of the lack of steering feel and throttle pedal response. Thinking of that last point actually, I think all the elements of a driver's car need to be present for the whole thing to really gel.

You can tell by the amount that I've written on the subject that I'm very dissapointed to find this about the Porsche. I've idolised Porsche since I was a kid, and the Cayman S was the first Porsche that I drove. Like a lot of your childhood heroes, it just wasn't what I expected. Maybe I should drive the CTR or the 962 that I liked as a kid? I'd probably like those What I was expecting from a run of the mill production Porsche was a cohesive driver's car brimming with feel and oozing competition heritage, but with amazing build quality and luxury comfort. It delivered as promised in the latter two areas, but in the former area it fell way short. As I said, I got more out of driving my BMW

That's interesting, thanks for explaining. Agree re the steering (although in contrast to most other new PAS equipped cars on the market I think it's still excellent even in its corrupted form!) - you'd think Porsche would offer an unfiltered version for extra cost.... !

Back on topic - I'm looking forward to an Evora demo shortly.

[RobM77]

Thanks, it was interesting to get my thoughts down in writing. I'm hoping the Evora solves most of the problems that I had with the Cayman.

[shoestring7]

dom180 said:

RobM77 said:

dom180 said:

RobM77 said:

dom180 said:

RobM77 said:

bogie said:

RobM77 said:

Splitting one's cost between cars is a great idea (I've done it for the last seven years). The only problem is that you're often stuck in something dull 80% of the time wondering where your hard earned money goes.

yes, exactly, I had that for a few years too, driving mediocre saloons as commuters with an Elise for the weekend....now I find a Vantage just fine as a daily runaround ...I just need a £2K Volvo estate to leave on the drive for the odd bit of DIY or runs to the tip LOL

seriously, isnt that the problem though - every car is compromised in some way, its just which compromise you choose, based on your current requirements

The problem I find is the unecessary compromises that cars make. I don't mind the necessary compromises, such as not having open top in my BMW because it needs to be quiet on the motorway and have a roof rack. Equally, I don't mind the fact that the BMW only does 33mpg and 0-60 in 6 seconds, because it needs to be substantial and weighty to have low NVH and boot space. What I regret is when manufacturers confuse NVH with feedback. Most modern motorway/comfortable cars go for low NVH and strangely take all the feedback away with it. I was going to buy a Cayman S as my only car, but found it had the feedback and involvement of an Audi, coupled with crazy non-linear steering. yawn.

Rob, crazy Porsche non-linear steering aside [and I def. agree with you on that point although in my all too short experience with it, it does actually seem to work extremely well at filtering all the crap that your brain just ignores anyway and it does seem great for catching slides/keeping hands uncrossed - I'd also bet a sizeable stake that Herr Rohrl is faster with the non-linear steering than without it.......] what involvement have Porsche engineered out of the Cayman that the Elise or other cars have aside from the aforementioned steering, noise and lightness?

Personally, I'd say Porsche are far closer to Lotus wrt involvement than they are to Audi.....

Low NVH I would expect from a modern Porsche. What I felt was lacking was throttle response, steering feel and to some extent chassis feel. For the first test drive I had I drove my Lotus to it, and obviously the Elise was a far better drive afterwards than the Cayman S; so, for the second test drive I turned up in my E36 328i Sport. Believe it or not, I actually felt more in touch with the 328i on the drive home. The suspension was woeful in comparison (and my BMW's got brand new BMW suspension on it!), the handling not as good, the steering not as sharp, the CofG felt too high, but crucially the steering was linear and with greater feel (which are both different things from steering response), and the cable operated throttle was smoother and more progressive than the snatchy laggy throttle in the Porsche. In short, although the Cayman was far more capable as a car (it's in a different league!), and quieter and more comfortable too, I preferred actually driving the BMW.

My message to Porsche would be to ditch the non-linear steering for starters. Yes, Walter Rohrl might not like it, but most people that I've spoken to don't, and we buy the cars! I hate it so much it put me off buying any Porsche at all. They you (Porsche) need to find a PAS system which gives a natural feel to the rack - benchmarks for this are cars like the Lotus Esprit. PAS shouldn't feel assisted. The steering in the Cayman S felt to me like a mid 90s onwards Audi A4, or the later BMWs 2005 onwards - too much assistance either side of centre. They then need to work on the throttle. If you can draw a graph of input vs response and it doesn't cross through 0 then don't let the car leave the factory. Ideally, get one of your old 964s, 944s, 968s etc out and plot a graph of input and output, then tune the new throttle to match it. Secondly, this business of throttle position giving torque rather than just the throttle body opening? It may sound clever but it feels weird to a lot of drivers - there's no point so just ditch it. Lastly, give the steering wheel another 3-4 inches of reach adjustment; there are an awful lot of people with £50k-£100k to spend on a car who don't have long enough arms to get comfortable in your cars. These people aren't going to spend £50k on a car that gives them shoulder and upper back ache when they can buy a £15k Golf or 1 series and get comfortable immediately. Gangly Mr Rohrl (sorry Walter, much respect is intended!) probably fits, but as I said before, he ain't buying the cars! The general public are and, believe it or not, we aren't all pure breds with perfect proportions.

Ok, so ignoring steering feel and linearity, the throttle responce issue (which is likely a function of modern emissions legislation that your BMW doesn't have to deal with), and comfort (which is a fair comment), what chassis feel messages did you miss in the Porsche compared to your Elise - just curious as I thought the Cayman was particularly good in that regard?

It's kind of hard to quantify really. Yes, the Cayman is very good in that respect compared with a lot of modern cars, it's just that constant feeling of what the road and car are doing I suppose. Going from the Elise to the Cayman is like switching from a detailed running commentary, Radio 5 live style, to a gentle conversation with a shy person; the details there, but you need to fill in the gaps. I just didn't feel at one with the car. I wouldn't mind betting that a lot of it is psychological because I feel detached and ill at ease because of the lack of steering feel and throttle pedal response. Thinking of that last point actually, I think all the elements of a driver's car need to be present for the whole thing to really gel.

You can tell by the amount that I've written on the subject that I'm very dissapointed to find this about the Porsche. I've idolised Porsche since I was a kid, and the Cayman S was the first Porsche that I drove. Like a lot of your childhood heroes, it just wasn't what I expected. Maybe I should drive the CTR or the 962 that I liked as a kid? I'd probably like those What I was expecting from a run of the mill production Porsche was a cohesive driver's car brimming with feel and oozing competition heritage, but with amazing build quality and luxury comfort. It delivered as promised in the latter two areas, but in the former area it fell way short. As I said, I got more out of driving my BMW

That's interesting, thanks for explaining. Agree re the steering (although in contrast to most other new PAS equipped cars on the market I think it's still excellent even in its corrupted form!) - you'd think Porsche would offer an unfiltered version for extra cost.... !

Back on topic - I'm looking forward to an Evora demo shortly.

On the other hand, Rob is about the only person in the known universe who doesn't like the Cayman. I had one for 18k miles and don't recognise any of the steering and throttle characteristics he eloborates on here. And my previous cars have included Caterii, E30 M3, 968CS.

You need to drive one and form your own opinion. Not sure if its relevant, but plenty of journo's acknowledge its about the best mainstream sportscar on the market.

I wish the Evora every success; I took a good look at it at the Goodwood FoS. Its a nice looking car but a near £60k 2 + 2x1/2 smelling slightly of glue and using a Toyota diesel gearbox faces an uphill battle. That motor also sits very high....

SS7

[bertie]

All cars are a compromise between outright handling and grip, and acceptable compliance for road use.

I have to say, having swapped my Elise for a Boxster, I can't recognise a lot of what's being said here at all.

The Boxster is slightly more toward the usability end of the spectrum, but as a road car I find it fantastic.

Anyway given that all cars are a compromise that's why you need a variety of cars to choose the right one for the occasion!!

[RobM77]

bertie said:

All cars are a compromise between outright handling and grip, and acceptable compliance for road use.

I have to say, having swapped my Elise for a Boxster, I can't recognise a lot of what's being said here at all.

The Boxster is slightly more toward the usability end of the spectrum, but as a road car I find it fantastic.

Anyway given that all cars are a compromise that's why you need a variety of cars to choose the right one for the occasion!!

I understand the spirit of what you're saying, but the reason I own multiple cars is because of what's available, not what's possible. Surely it's possible to combine the layout and comfort of the Cayman with the control feel and response of an Esprit (and I expect the Evora)?

[bertie]

RobM77 said:

bertie said:

All cars are a compromise between outright handling and grip, and acceptable compliance for road use.

I have to say, having swapped my Elise for a Boxster, I can't recognise a lot of what's being said here at all.

The Boxster is slightly more toward the usability end of the spectrum, but as a road car I find it fantastic.

Anyway given that all cars are a compromise that's why you need a variety of cars to choose the right one for the occasion!!

I understand the spirit of what you're saying, but the reason I own multiple cars is because of what's available, not what's possible. Surely it's possible to combine the layout and comfort of the Cayman with the control feel and response of an Esprit (and I expect the Evora)?

Not driven it myself, but comfort with feedback allegedly is exactly what the Evora gives.

Still think you need a good fleet myself mind, can't get kids and luggage in either and they'll never feel proper on track.

[RobM77]

bertie said:

RobM77 said:

bertie said:

All cars are a compromise between outright handling and grip, and acceptable compliance for road use.

I have to say, having swapped my Elise for a Boxster, I can't recognise a lot of what's being said here at all.

The Boxster is slightly more toward the usability end of the spectrum, but as a road car I find it fantastic.

Anyway given that all cars are a compromise that's why you need a variety of cars to choose the right one for the occasion!!

I understand the spirit of what you're saying, but the reason I own multiple cars is because of what's available, not what's possible. Surely it's possible to combine the layout and comfort of the Cayman with the control feel and response of an Esprit (and I expect the Evora)?

Not driven it myself, but comfort with feedback allegedly is exactly what the Evora gives.

Still think you need a good fleet myself mind, can't get kids and luggage in either and they'll never feel proper on track.

that's true. I think a Cayman would be fine for me for holidays, I'd just pack light, and as yet I don't have kids. I'll always want to drive something good on track though.

[bertie]

RobM77 said:

bertie said:

RobM77 said:

bertie said:

All cars are a compromise between outright handling and grip, and acceptable compliance for road use.

I have to say, having swapped my Elise for a Boxster, I can't recognise a lot of what's being said here at all.

The Boxster is slightly more toward the usability end of the spectrum, but as a road car I find it fantastic.

Anyway given that all cars are a compromise that's why you need a variety of cars to choose the right one for the occasion!!

I understand the spirit of what you're saying, but the reason I own multiple cars is because of what's available, not what's possible. Surely it's possible to combine the layout and comfort of the Cayman with the control feel and response of an Esprit (and I expect the Evora)?

Not driven it myself, but comfort with feedback allegedly is exactly what the Evora gives.

Still think you need a good fleet myself mind, can't get kids and luggage in either and they'll never feel proper on track.

that's true. I think a Cayman would be fine for me for holidays, I'd just pack light, and as yet I don't have kids. I'll always want to drive something good on track though.

It's dead simple really, on the track it's lovely and smooth and you haven't got a wife or g/f with you, so you need something like a Caterham.

For going on holiday / to B&Q / to the tip / carting kids around, performance is not an issue, you want something big, comfy and quiet, say a Discovery.

The wife wants something comfy, quiet and stylish...Mercedes CLS

You want something very fast, fantastic to look at and an event to get into...Lambo.

There are places you won't want to go in the Lambo, so you'll need something both you and the iwfe will drive, is comfy, quick enough and handles well enough for you to enjoy it, like a Boxster.

Job done, all bases covered!

To try and kid yourself you can do all things in one car is nonsense, wife even beleives me now too!