Mappers advice please

Mappers advice please

Author
Discussion

JonBoy1

Original Poster:

58 posts

128 months

Wednesday 4th January 2012
quotequote all
Gents

I have a 55 plate STI 2.0. The car has the Powerstation stage 1 upgrade and currently runs at 320BHP/FTLB

The upgrade includes full stainless steel Miltek exhaust with 100 cell sports cat, K+N panel filter and ECUTEK remap.

While I understand that all cars are different, should it be possible to get more out of the car with a remap, before looking at injectors/turbo etc

Cheers
Jon

ScoobieWRX

4,863 posts

184 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
Even with your current setup 320bhp isn't the end of it on the proviso your engine is healthy and you have supporting mods.

The 100 cell cat won't get the car through an MOT, even if the cat is red hot so is a waste of time IMHO. You would be better off finding a friendly/sympathetic MOT garage/station and just having a full decat system to start with. Then you can get the best of anything else you change like turbo, injectors, intercooler etc...

Where you are now, with what i presume is a standard set of turbo, injectors, exhaust headers, uppipe and intercooler is probably a max of 340-350bhp with some more map tweaking on the road, and a bit more with some methanol mixing up to 20%.

Personally i would get what you safely can from just 99RON petrol without any exotic mixing of fuels. Thereafter you will have to think about exhaust headers/uppipe, injector and turbo changes because by 350bhp you will be running out of fuel and air, and enough exhaust gasses to spin a more efficient turbo with.

Next stage IMHO would be something like a TD05 20G turbo with the standard STi TMIC in place, 650cc-710cc injectors and a cold air induction kit, and you'll make 400bhp. Fit a decent roller bearing turbo and front mount intercooler and you'll see 450bhp. You could go for all manner of twisted or twin scroll turbo systems with external wastegates and all that but you are talking big bucks. Best to keep it sensible with your everyday driver.

Some more tweaking right now however, as your car is, might see another 20bhp realistically. The weather has a lot to do with it on the day of the remap/tweaks. In cold weather you should see some gains but they will be robbed come summertime.

P.S. Your EcuTek remap which generally locks out your ECU to anything other than EcuTek dealers, and even then unless you go back to the original tuner that did the mapping, a different EcuTek dealer will charge you full wack for a remap because they can't see what the previous tuner did so have to start from scratch anyway.

However, if you go to an Open Source tuner wink then with the right software tools the EcuTek ECU lock can be easily overcome and it's not so expensive to remap.

Edited by ScoobieWRX on Thursday 5th January 07:43

JollyGrnMonster

887 posts

155 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
Car should make more than that.

Each cars different but its probably just an overly precautionus map.

Francis,

Whats the point if it has the ecutek licence already its just the mappers time.

Simon

ScoobieWRX

4,863 posts

184 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
JollyGrnMonster said:
Car should make more than that.

Each cars different but its probably just an overly precautionus map.

Francis,

Whats the point if it has the ecutek licence already its just the mappers time.

Simon
The point is you as an EcuTek dealer cannot go into the map to just make some tweaks because you cannot see the previous tuners mapping changes. You have to start from scratch again and that means charging a customer full wack for a full remap. You have no idea what changes have been made to that map by Powerstation therefore have no choice but to start from scratch. The only way you can tweak the mapping is if it was you that did the mapping originally.

Baring in mind the car has already had a remap, conservative or otherwise, asking a customer to pay the same price again for what is in reality only a couple or so hours of mapping time rather than a whole morning or day of mapping from scratch sounds like a good deal for the customer.

Admittedly there is already an EcuTek licence on the ECU and you can charge a bit less than a full fresh install, however, it will still take at least a morning to remap the ECU properly and you have to charge accordingly for your mapping time.

It's more than just a matter of mappers time however....It's also about how much the customer has to pay for the pleasure.

mrmr96

13,736 posts

162 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
An adjustment to an ecutek map will cost less than the initial map because that first time you have to pay the mallets time AND pay for an ecutek license. Now you have the license you just pay his time.

liner33

7,857 posts

160 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
Mallets ?? I heard mappers called some things before smile

No experienced mapper starts from scratch and few will use the map on the car to start with, I really dont see that being a concern , as said since the licence is already on the ecu you may as well stick with ecutek from a respected mapper

ScoobieWRX

4,863 posts

184 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
mrmr96 said:
An adjustment to an ecutek map will cost less than the initial map because that first time you have to pay the mallets time AND pay for an ecutek license. Now you have the license you just pay his time.
From an EcuTek dealers point of view there is no such thing as an adjustment of the mapping unless he did the mapping in the first place. If it's someone elses mapping he cannot see it (EcuTek safegaurds) and has to start from scratch even though he won't charge for the licence.

JollyGrnMonster

887 posts

155 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
liner33 said:
Mallets ?? I heard mappers called some things before smile

No experienced mapper starts from scratch and few will use the map on the car to start with, I really dont see that being a concern , as said since the licence is already on the ecu you may as well stick with ecutek from a respected mapper
I would prefer to start from scratch as then I know everything is as it should be..

if I tweak a map someone else has done and they adjusted the cold start incorrectly, it will still be incorrect.. therefore if I have to check everything I may as well load a starting point of my own and then tweak the fueling, boost, ignition and test the car properly rather than waste time checking bits I dont need to if I load my own map.
It doesnt take long to map a car from scratch not when you have mapped 1000s of the things.

Simon

JollyGrnMonster

887 posts

155 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
ScoobieWRX said:
From an EcuTek dealers point of view there is no such thing as an adjustment of the mapping unless he did the mapping in the first place. If it's someone elses mapping he cannot see it (EcuTek safegaurds) and has to start from scratch even though he won't charge for the licence.
Sorry but your wrong, there is ecutek read function.

But on a standard ish car why would you want to tweak the map thats there unless you (the royal you, not directing it specifically at you) can map a car from scratch easily and efficently and would rather copy someone elses hardwork and just tweak it slightly and take the credit for it and keep that as a starting point for all you other same rom file cars..

If the car had big injectors, different cc, different induction, big turbo and was mapping 450+bhp then there is benefit from altering the current map because a lot of the work is going to be in rescaling the maf curve and the injectors to get it 100%, so assuming it is mapped well and the change required is small then it makes sense to tweak it.

Simon

liner33

7,857 posts

160 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
JollyGrnMonster said:
I would prefer to start from scratch as then I know everything is as it should be..

if I tweak a map someone else has done and they adjusted the cold start incorrectly, it will still be incorrect.. therefore if I have to check everything I may as well load a starting point of my own and then tweak the fueling, boost, ignition and test the car properly rather than waste time checking bits I dont need to if I load my own map.
It doesnt take long to map a car from scratch not when you have mapped 1000s of the things.

Simon
So you dont have a base map on your laptop already ??

JollyGrnMonster

887 posts

155 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
Also there is a group of ecutek mappers that communicate and will email maps if requested so it is possible to tweak as required.

Simon

JonBoy1

Original Poster:

58 posts

128 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
Thanks for the responses gents.

I dont really want to look at hardware right now, so I appreciate your input, now I need to work out whether its worth chasing an additional 30BHP. Would the Torque figures go up similiarly?

P.s the car does pass an MOT on the Miltek exhaust system

ScoobieWRX

4,863 posts

184 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
JonBoy1 said:
Thanks for the responses gents.

I dont really want to look at hardware right now, so I appreciate your input, now I need to work out whether its worth chasing an additional 30BHP. Would the Torque figures go up similiarly?

P.s the car does pass an MOT on the Miltek exhaust system
You're lucky then because many just don't and will not no matter how hot you get a 100cell cat.

JonBoy1

Original Poster:

58 posts

128 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
TBH I wouldnt be happy if it didnt, thats why I spent so much on it. Its interesting you bring that up though, it would be useful for others to know that its hit and miss, because I know that you dont have to spend as much and will still get the same power gains

liner33

7,857 posts

160 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
I know someone who passed mot emissions with a decat on his Evo 6 , it simply wouldnt happen , there is a difference between passing an mot and passing the correct emission test wink.


watky555

33 posts

163 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
Mine struggles with a 100cel, and driving round town does it no good either, too much airflow past the CAT.

mrmr96

13,736 posts

162 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
liner33 said:
Mallets ?? I heard mappers called some things before smile

No experienced mapper starts from scratch and few will use the map on the car to start with, I really dont see that being a concern , as said since the licence is already on the ecu you may as well stick with ecutek from a respected mapper
Yeah sorry, meant "mappers". (bloody autocorrect on iPhone)

I know that some mappers will start from scratch by choice, and sometimes they have no choice because the ecutek map can be locked/passworded somehow so only the person who did it can read it. But bear in mind when they say 'start from scratch' they really mean 'start from their own known base map'. I don't know anyone who would start from zero, it's always tweaking a base map, but as others have pointed out, using a known base map is not a bad idea, and in some cases (ecu locked) is the only option.

ScoobieWRX

4,863 posts

184 months

Thursday 5th January 2012
quotequote all
There's a difference between starting a fresh session using your own base map every time that has been altered to your starting preferences with some changes made to reflect the info you already know about like injector sizes, boost control solenoid, MAF and load scale changes etc..., to using that same old much hashed about Prodrive map i keep seeing that's been used in various iterations on 1000's of cars, and being passed off by so called reputable mappers as a full custom remap.

There's your 2hr remap!! wink

liner33

7,857 posts

160 months

Friday 6th January 2012
quotequote all
Yeah that was my point , very few mappers start from scratch and almost none when mapping the stock ecu, an experienced mapper will have an idea of what the car will need alterations wise before he even fires up the laptop and many will have a pretty close map already done from a previous customer, its often just a case of flashing the map up and a few checks, adjustments, tweaks on the road or on the rollers to suit the car.

Very few tuners will actually spend the time to get it 100%, some will and those with a real passion for the subject are the ones to use, however its a nice little earner for most , easy money because people think its more complicated than it really is.






JollyGrnMonster

887 posts

155 months

Friday 6th January 2012
quotequote all
But francis you were talking about tweaking the existing map.

Yes by starting from scratch I meant from a known starting point.
I have several maps I have honed over the years for each rom file.
I do occasionally start completely from the original map that the car would have left the factory with, its good sometimes to approach it differently.

Also starting from scratch on after market ecus where you have no base at all can be fun.

Simon